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Seconded!

But the troll bot is pretty fun actually.

Hello everyone,

I want to first start off by saying that I have only played 5th ed. (not counting when I played in 2nd ed. when I was 12) and I have been a tournament player off and on for about a year. I have been to Adepticon, WarGames Con, Alamo 40k GT, several smaller GT's ( roughly 32-48 players) as well as numerous 18-24 player tournaments at my FLGS. I have had the opportunity of playing big name competitiors at the tournament level (i.e. Goatboy, Darkwynn, JWolf, Dash, Hulksmash), and while I do not mean to go off on a wall of text, I just wanted to state that I had some level of understanding of tourneament play. I have placed very well at many and was ranked 8 on Rankings HQ (I think I am like 10 now)

Now on to my opinion of the Grey Knight Codex.

Is it currently/going to ruin the game at a tournament level for 5th ed. due to its OP'ness?

Nope.

Is it currently dominating the tournament scene?

Not really, but do you see alot of GK lists? Yes... but any good player can beat an optimized GK list if they have a solid all-comers list.

What do I mean by the above statement? Well, while the GK codex does have a ton of goodies and flat-out rude wargear and abilities, it still is essentially expensive 3+ armor saves (unless your facing Draigowing, which I consider to be one of the least terrifying builds). I hate to compare GK to other marine armies, but at some level this is still true. The key to consitently beating GK is simple, know the Codex cover to cover. Do not let yourself be surprised by what they can do, but instead anticipate. With terrain becoming more and more prevalent in the tournament scene, it actually hinders the GK codex with being able to hide from heavy fire lanes created by the 24" threat range (aside from the awesome dreads they have) and hugging cover as you make your way to them. I still think that the most OP codex out now is IG simply because of its first turn Alpha-Strike shooting potential. Once again, my opinion.

Do I think they should pull the GK codex and perma-ban Ward?

Absolutely not, I just think they should continue to make flexible codex's on par with the previous 4-5 that have come out.

I do believe that I have the answer to fix the GK Codex with what I consider it to be "pushing it just a little to far" and it can be done with 2 simple FAQ's.

1. Do not allow HH to be stacked even if one comes from the squad and the other from an IC. If you want that awesomeness so bad, take a Librarian with Might of Heroes or whatever its called and use it with HH.

2. Only allow one "special grenade" to be used per assault. Make people choose between using rad or psychotroke, because using both in 1 turn is just a bit much, don't ya think?

Doesn't that seem like a fair argument?


P.S. Another thing that could be FAQ'd but not necessary would be to lower the Psychic Pilots Ld. to 9 or make Psychic Pilots be an upgrade kind of like Daemonis Posession. Any thoughts?

2. Only allow one "special grenade" to be used per assault. Make people choose between using rad or psychotroke, because using both in 1 turn is just a bit much, don't ya think?

Why?
The grenades either come on a 1W fragile character that costs a ton for the poor stat line he has or on a super expensive HQ. You pay good points for those grenades so you should very well be allowed to use them too.

Pyriel- wrote:

2. Only allow one "special grenade" to be used per assault. Make people choose between using rad or psychotroke, because using both in 1 turn is just a bit much, don't ya think?

Why?
The grenades either come on a 1W fragile character that costs a ton for the poor stat line he has or on a super expensive HQ. You pay good points for those grenades so you should very well be allowed to use them too.

It is just my opinion, and keep in mind I am not talking about just the grenades being a problem. It is when they are used in conjuction with double stacked HH and Might of Heroes does it become a bit much..

Your talking having your toughness reduced by 1 with the possibility of attacking yourself or only having one attack and then being hit with s7 power weapons at I6 from DCA's that can wrap vehicles up in the assault and also do 2d6 armor pentrations. I have seen one stacked DCA squad with Librarian/Techmarine combo wipe a 20 man boy squad and a BW in combat massacring both units. It would of been worse had the BW not exploded and killed a few of their 3++ crusaders on some bad rolls. I have also seen that squad assault a LR and Stormraven blowing up both. Granted the player had only moved both vehicles less than 6 inches... which goes back to my statement about knowing what GK can do and anticipate them, not be surprised by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:

2. Only allow one "special grenade" to be used per assault. Make people choose between using rad or psychotroke, because using both in 1 turn is just a bit much, don't ya think?

Why?
The grenades either come on a 1W fragile character that costs a ton for the poor stat line he has or on a super expensive HQ. You pay good points for those grenades so you should very well be allowed to use them too.

Any good player will know how to position his 1W fragile character in a way to keep him from getting in base to base combat. You and I both know this. Granted if the assault lasts more than one turn you can get to him or if you get the charge off, etc, but if the GK player is any good, he will be sure to get his bang for his buck with that model/grenade mongerer in the first assault before he is killed.

I have seen one stacked DCA squad with Librarian/Techmarine combo wipe a 20 man boy squad and a BW

So you need to take a libby at around 170p for the grenades on another 100p character to be good?
And this is to powerful according to you?

So a libby, tecchie, DCA squad at roughly 420 points massacred a 120p boy squad with a big mek and you are surprised?
Dude, should I complain about LC terminators being OP because my 10 man terminator squad and the chaplain attached to them for 500 points massacred a 100p grot squad too?

Those grenades together with stacked HH you are so afraid of arent as simple as you think, you need to fill 2 HQs to take them, that´s about 270 points right there.
These two characters need to be at the same place at the correct time, need to get the charge, need to buy a transport in order to get said charge, need to roll multiple Ld psychic tests that can kill your expensive characters/squad leaders if failed and afterwards might very well stand in the open to be shot to death etc etc.

I agree, the combo is good in melee so what, for what it costs and the coordination and luck it requires it better damn be.

Pyriel- wrote:

I have seen one stacked DCA squad with Librarian/Techmarine combo wipe a 20 man boy squad and a BW

So you need to take a libby at around 170p for the grenades on another 100p character to be good?
And this is to powerful according to you?

So a libby, tecchie, DCA squad at roughly 420 points massacred a 120p boy squad with a big mek and you are surprised?
Dude, should I complain about LC terminators being OP because my 10 man terminator squad and the chaplain attached to them for 500 points massacred a 100p grot squad too?

Those grenades together with stacked HH you are so afraid of arent as simple as you think, you need to fill 2 HQs to take them, that´s about 270 points right there.
These two characters need to be at the same place at the correct time, need to get the charge, need to buy a transport in order to get said charge, need to roll multiple Ld psychic tests that can kill your expensive characters/squad leaders if failed and afterwards might very well stand in the open to be shot to death etc etc.

I agree, the combo is good in melee so what, for what it costs and the coordination and luck it requires it better damn be.

Meh, I did not mean to come off as complaining. I merely was trying to offer other suggestions besides all the hate I have seen the GK Dex get. A lot of people seem to think the Codex is ruining the game. I was merely trying to state that it isn't, and that all you need to be is aware of their potential to beat them. My suggestions about the grenades were simply that. I am not advocating that they be changed or else I will rage quit. I have beaten lists with squads exactly as you detailed, and you're right, it can be done. And with psychic hoods and failures on psychic tests and rolls of 1's for psychotroke grenades they are not a for sure thing every time. Do not mistake me as a whiner please. I hate DE Venom spam more than any GK list I have ever seen, and I still don't hate on DE... publically atleast

Also, it wasn't just the boy squad they got, it was also a BW, and the ork squad and battlewagon was wiped without hardly any damage done to the DCA squad and friends. That squad can kill anything, literally. It could multi-assault a Blood talon and full 10 man Assault squad with attached Priest and Unleashed Rage Libby and come out the victor without taking a single wound if atleast 1 HH and Might of Heroes gets off. Thats pretty killy... And it can be delivered in a LR that has Fortitude

I mean, it doesn't take much luck/coordination to deliver an AV14 LR at your opponent while he is worrying about 2-3 Psyflemens and other cool stuff...?


Also, If you had a 10 man LC termie squad with attached chaplain for 500 points it would get raped by this squad. You couldn't fit in a vehicle meaning you were on foot and would probably be assaulted by libby/techmarine combo and 7 DCA's/3Crusaders putting out 28 Str5-7 PW attacks that are hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Now this is assuming atleast 1 of the 3 str buffs go off. Heaven forbid the crusdaers get to str 6 with all the str buffs and your now T3 IC due to Rad grenades can be insta-killed by crusaders. We aren't even going to factor in psychotroke grenades making you attack yourself with all those LC's. Of course I would choose to probably ignore the Chaplain by putting the crusaders additional 6 PW attacks on him for assault and focusing the 28 PW atacks on your 10 termies. So by me getting the charge since I would more than likely becoming out of a LR or Stormraven I negate your Chaplain Buff and hit you roughly 16-17 times..? Woundng you 13-14 times of which you would fail 8-9... before even swinging? Ouch.

On a side note, Crusaders are so cool that they get flak armor for wargear even though they will never use it. Due to their 3++ for 15 points. And because there other hand is jealous they get a PW. Both of those wargear upgrades cost 30-45 points for other codexs.

Meh, I did not mean to come off as complaining. I merely was trying to offer other suggestions besides all the hate I have seen the GK Dex get. A lot of people seem to think the Codex is ruining the game. I was merely trying to state that it isn't, and that all you need to be is aware of their potential to beat them.

Ok, sorry if I sounded harsh.
I agree.

I hate DE Venom spam more than any GK list I have ever seen

Same here, it´s the worst thing that has happened this game since 3:ed. With the 6:ed rules if they are true the DE boat spam crap will be ridiculously OP.

Also, it wasn't just the boy squad they got, it was also a BW, and the ork squad and battlewagon was wiped

Then again orks are so UP today that it´s sad.

I mean, it doesn't take much luck/coordination to deliver an AV14 LR at your opponent while he is worrying about 2-3 Psyflemens and other cool stuff...?

Wrong. LR´s arent that good with all the lance spam and meltaspam armies out there.

Also, If you had a 10 man LC termie squad with attached chaplain for 500 points it would get raped by this squad.

Flawed comparison as the termies would survive small arms fire whereas the DCA bomb would be annihilated the second anything shooty coughed at it.
Thus you cant simply compare different units meant to be good at different things in a vacuum.

On a side note, Crusaders are so cool that they get flak armor for wargear even though they will never use it.

Makes no sense to me either. For all I care they could be butt nekkid and still get that 3++ shield,

I played with my sisters of battle in a 1750 point tournament this weekend and ran Uriah with 5 death cult and 4 crusaders. Needless to say I probably wont run that combo ever again outside of a GT. Made me feel like I had a win button if I got them across the board. Sure its the one real hammer that sisters can get but the death cult are slowed good and I cant even buff up my strength for mine. They almost single handedly wiped out two chaos space marine armies. In my final game I had to play against grey knights and he fielded 8 assassins with the tech priest. I charged celestine into them after I managed to get them out of their storm raven and only 3 and the techpriest had survived my torrent of fire. Psychotrope grenades made me I1 and they instant killed me with rads and the such before I could swing once. They charged another squad and killed them off before I finally fired my entire army into them to kill them off.

Tomb King wrote:I played with my sisters of battle in a 1750 point tournament this weekend and ran Uriah with 5 death cult and 4 crusaders. Needless to say I probably wont run that combo ever again outside of a GT. Made me feel like I had a win button if I got them across the board.

Heh... That's the lite version too. I usually run 7 DCA / 2 Crusaders. That's just disgusting.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Also, there is nothing wrong with math in warhammer. It exists whether you turn your head away from it or not.
Because everything is measured with stats, and determined with dice, the fact that dice is related to probabilities is tied with math.

For example, if we play russian roulette, er if you put 1 bullet, you have 1 in 6 chances of getting shot.
If you put 2, the chance of you getting shot just doubled.

I dont have to be a math nerd to point that out.

Of course the real question is "why am I playing russian roulette?"
Can we at least agree that, while Math is a very important tool in this game, it's not a replacement for experence?

Experience is a reflection of mathhammer.


The counter arguments to mathhammer (as if there were such a thing) are often grouped the following way;

1. "Experience is "better"".

Once you have tried to assault Genestealers with Gretchins you learn that Gretchins often gets ROLFstomped.
Mathhammer could have told you how often beforehand....and then you could have made a decision whether you felt like trying to beat the odds or not.

2. "I might beat the odds and roll really high"

Or you might beat the odds and roll really low.
Mathhammer is about what is most likely to happen.
Any intelligent individual knows that probability is based on an infinite number of "attempts", and that a game of 40K does not contain an infinite number of dice rolls.
So, yes, you might indeed roll really high, but as the likelihood of you doing that is the same as the likelihood of you rolling low.....my calculations are still fine to work with.

3. "Mathhammer cannot calculate everything"

We all know that. There are plenty of things can cannot be easily defined, and that which cannot be defined cannot easily be calculated.
But is that reason enough to NOT calculate the things that are easily defined? Will those calculations not help us decide what to do about the "difficult" factors?

4. Hyperbole

"I don't want to have to wait 20 min. while my opponent whips out a calculator and starts mathhammering".
And you won't....so just leave the hyperbole at home, mkay?

5. Anecdotal "evidence"

"I once saw......"
People who tell such stories usually present them as some sort of argument. What they are really saying is that they expect that same thing to happen again.
It just might.....and mathhammer tells you how likely it is.


Mathhammer is simply a tool.
It can be used correctly...and then it helps, or it can be used incorrectly....and then it is worthless.

-Kinda like statistics.
Statistics are, in and of themselves, a reflection of utter truth. It is the humans reading them that screws up the analysis.
We say that statistics can be manipulated, but what we are really doing is manipulating the people reading it.

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I played with my sisters of battle in a 1750 point tournament this weekend and ran Uriah with 5 death cult and 4 crusaders. Needless to say I probably wont run that combo ever again outside of a GT. Made me feel like I had a win button if I got them across the board.

Heh... That's the lite version too. I usually run 7 DCA / 2 Crusaders. That's just disgusting.

The only way I finally lost them was in game three against grey knights and two dreds charged them after they killed anything they had a chance of killing. In game 2 I ran through a unit of CSM without letting them strike back. A unit of khorne berzerkers and a chaos lord. The whole time I lost 0 models as I made every FnP save anytime one failed the invulnerable. I sold my grey knights because I didnt want the crutch then I played my sisters and used what I felt like was a crutch. I can win on my own accord I dont need uber units to get me there

Tomb King wrote: I played my sisters and used what I felt like was a crutch. I can win on my own accord I dont need uber units to get me there

So not a crutch. It was our present for good behavior.

You should have seen what redemptionists did in 3rd. They were the uber unit back then for sisters.

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

At core, I absolutely agree with you however it helps to vent and that is part of the purpose of Dakka.

I am still incredulous that some twit decided that Cleansing Flame is balanced or pscho grenades. One works against hoards and the other screws over quality counters. Where I am seeing that the GK hurt is the typical marine problem just on steroids... You have fewer wounds and 3+ saves, if you roll a lot of 1s and 2s, they will die. So if I have a firepower army, GK don't bother me so much but if I depend on hoards of CC attacks, I get screwed by a "flamer" template that hits everyone in the squad. Oh and it counts for CC resolution besides. So I need to kill 1 remaining GK and I charge him, he "flames" me and averages at least 12 kills on my 30 ork boy or 30 gaunt mob. Now hopefully I will kill him but Mr 20 to 24 pt GK walks away a winner killing 72 points of boys at least for his demise.

DAaddict wrote:So if I have a firepower army, GK don't bother me so much but if I depend on hoards of CC attacks, I get screwed by a "flamer" template that hits everyone in the squad. Oh and it counts for CC resolution besides. So I need to kill 1 remaining GK and I charge him, he "flames" me and averages at least 12 kills on my 30 ork boy or 30 gaunt mob. Now hopefully I will kill him but Mr 20 to 24 pt GK walks away a winner killing 72 points of boys at least for his demise.

Then finish him off in a way that he doesn't have a method of countering it. A squad of shoota boyz or lootaz maybe? Using a unit at what they're best at when you know they're going to get shredded is generally not the best use of that unit, especially when they have other options.

daedalus wrote:

DAaddict wrote:So if I have a firepower army, GK don't bother me so much but if I depend on hoards of CC attacks, I get screwed by a "flamer" template that hits everyone in the squad. Oh and it counts for CC resolution besides. So I need to kill 1 remaining GK and I charge him, he "flames" me and averages at least 12 kills on my 30 ork boy or 30 gaunt mob. Now hopefully I will kill him but Mr 20 to 24 pt GK walks away a winner killing 72 points of boys at least for his demise.

Then finish him off in a way that he doesn't have a method of countering it. A squad of shoota boyz or lootaz maybe? Using a unit at what they're best at when you know they're going to get shredded is generally not the best use of that unit, especially when they have other options.

Agreed but the issue is not only knowing what is best but affording what is best. So I have invested in 100+ boyz with slugga and choppa now to truly counter that I should buy 100+ boyz with shootas. 300$ is not really a good solution and that is my point. I have built a GK army for @ 300$ - the ENTIRE army. Now as an ork or nid player I have to buy that much to counter it. <sigh> It is good for GW sales but that is not an acceptable solution to a new codex. Let's say for example they redo the sisters and give them a faith point ability that reflects whatever an opponent targets them with - an anti-shooter ability that absolutely screws a firepower army. To then tell an eldar player that he should field bunches of howling banshees - that are not even troops- is not really a good answer.

Max the fire to whichever is less the number of GK or the targets and cleansing flame is acceptable. When 1 marine - with a successful Ld test - can slaughter 12+ figs it is OP. Then add to it the psycho grenades and you can't even look at countering them with a quality unit of say 10 nobz. That is my problem. But I suppose we will have to suffer through two years of GK and GK-counter armies dominating the tournaments before we get a solution. At least that is my hope and that GW doesn't respond by making a "screw the GK" codex.

Orks are very weak against pretty much everything now so use better examples other then my poor shootas cant counter purifyers...

Pyriel- wrote:Orks are very weak against pretty much everything now so use better examples other then my poor shootas cant counter purifyers...

Even if updated, that situation isn't likely to change, Boyz will be basically always be Boyz. Purifiers are just too capable against horde units, essentially being able to destroy half their numbers before any blows are struck and killing off half of what's left before the horde unit even gets to hit back.

True but then again they cost way more then regular marines and get down just as easy from shooting and need a 150p crutch to be able to take objectives.
Sure 1 model can kill a lot of low armour horde in melee but in order for that one model to reach melee you need to take a lot of them so that shooting leaves that one as a survivor to reach melee and/or buy a transport ro get into said melee.

How well do purifyer builds fare in competitive gaming anyway?

Pyriel- wrote:Orks are very weak against pretty much everything now so use better examples other then my poor shootas cant counter purifyers...

Shootas can though 20 orks = 6 wounds or 2 dead GK per turn. It is not world beating but it is okay. My point is that "counter" requires me to expend about 300$. That is what I find unacceptable.

DAaddict wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:Orks are very weak against pretty much everything now so use better examples other then my poor shootas cant counter purifyers...

Shootas can though 20 orks = 6 wounds or 2 dead GK per turn. It is not world beating but it is okay. My point is that "counter" requires me to expend about 300$. That is what I find unacceptable.

How exactly is this make sense? If someone doesnt field things to kill an army how is it the opponents fault? Thatd be like a player fielding no anti tank and then throwing a fit someone brought a landraider..

How exactly is this make sense? If someone doesnt field things to kill an army how is it the opponents fault? Thatd be like a player fielding no anti tank and then throwing a fit someone brought a landraider..

Simple, I can use the same logic to whine to no end about the OP of a landraider since it is so effective against tactical squads, I just cant find any counter for a LR in a tac squad since I need to take 9 marines for one lascannon and then get a lot of luck hitting and killing it while the LR can kill 3-4 marines in return per turn.
Plus I need to shell out a lot of $ for those 5 tactical squads so that I can down that one LR with ease.

Dont use examples taken out of context and using a crappy old codex against a new good one, the points made by taking to such biased examples are pretty lame.

How OP are the same purifyers against hammernators? DE venom spam? SW razor and longfang line? etc...

The constant whine in here is really about how weak orks are, not how OP purifyers are since comparing them and trying to make a point is pathetic.
The same boys are still worthless against most DE builds so does that mean you will start to whine about the OPness of DE all of a sudden?

But if you must insist:
30 shootaboys + 3 big shootas = 195p
8 purifyers = 192p
Thus even point cost.
Now try to calculate it again with the boys keeping range (backing and shooting) and the purifyers trying to move into melee.

The whole example, although balanced and not OP is still ridiculous since it is taken in vacuum, no transport for purifyers, no lootas for orks, no diff terrain saves, no shooting covers and most important of all, no failed Ld tests for cleansing flames.



...but yes I too find it ridiculous that you need to buy 30 models in order to have something in game that can take down the opponents 8 cheaper models.
One army is cheap while the other needs a bank robbery to build.

No that would be like having an army of tyranid warriors and then getting a codex update.....

<sigh> My complaint isn't that there is no solution but lo and behold GW releases a brand new codex and you are now left with spending $300 to rebuild your army to possibly keep its head above water OR spend the same $300 to build yourself a shiny new GK army that a blind man can run.

Playing Don Quixote is all well and good but very few are willing to tilt against the windmills of GWs codexes. Personally I have given in, I am building a GK army like a lot of other people. But I will grit my teeth with every new GW codex that "revolutionizes" the game world we play in.
Perhaps one day we will see a competitive Imperial codex that doesn't break new ground of cheezieness.

We had one. It's called Codex Space Marines.

Surtur wrote:We had one. It's called Codex Space Marines.

He said competitive... last I checked codex marines is definately not in the top 5 nor is it showing up in the top 5 of any tournaments that I have seen lately.

Tomb King wrote:

Surtur wrote:We had one. It's called Codex Space Marines.

He said competitive... last I checked codex marines is definately not in the top 5 nor is it showing up in the top 5 of any tournaments that I have seen lately.

Codex Marines is competitive, but not in every build, and not in the "point and click" way of a parking lot or razorspam.

Want to beat GK? Play a harder IG list.

Theduke07 wrote:Want to beat GK? Play a harder IG list.

I will agree IG are very competitive but they are not broken. IG struggle against Grey Knights just like everyone else does. I loathe draigowing because somehow I always face them when its Annihilation. IG have no solution for KP games. Same with dark eldar they can bring a lot of pain but if its a kill point game its an uphill battle vs elite armies.

Tomb King: IG do not need to struggle against Grey Knights, you can make it go the opposite way if you focus on putting transports on the table. It doesn't matter how many Psycannons they bring if you have 12+ AV12 vehicles for them to face that perform the same functions.

Your last Ard Boyz list, Tomb King, had a lot of lynchpin units (i.e. things that were important for your list to function, but can be taken out, heavily affecting your ability to retaliate). If you move away from that kind of list, you will find much more success not just against Grey Knights, but against all comers.

General discussion:
Grey Knights did something to the game that not a lot of people realize, I think. For the first time, to the more general audience, it became very clear that maxing out your mech capabilities makes for a very strong list. A lot of people talk about 'razorspam', but it didn't, and still doesn't really show up in numbers at competitive tournaments.

What you have with Grey Knights is an army showing up to tournaments with a pretty standard list of 9-12 vehicles. Opponents that are not playing on the same mech level simply cannot compete (of course, there are a few outlyers, such as DOA Angels, SM Bikes and Deathwing). It is the vehicle match-up, and Grey Knights generally embracing MSU where others are not, that is making this perceived difference.

The odd thing that I find though, is that quite a few armies do the mech game better than the Grey Knights, because they can bring the same numbers of vehicles but themselves posses much more reliable anti-tank. Things like Purifier's anti-horde spell don't even enter into the equation (check the forum we are discussing this in).

<broadcast mode active: stay on topic, and limit your discussions to other poster's ARGUMENTS, or you'll find yourselves with lots of Dakka-free time to fill>