Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Did someone necro this thread or is is just still alive? Holy crap people, let it go, they're here, They're queer, get used to it.

There are 2 scenarios:
1- Your army isn't Chaos Daemons so they are just a good 5th ed. book.
2- Your army is Chaos Daemons and they are pretty damn overpowered.

Why is this in tournament discussion? It seems more appropriate for 40k general discussion.

The Grey Knights codex doesn't really have any dead entries other than a few henchmen choices. Basically this means you can't really make a terrible army if you wanted to compared to other codices which have TONS of dead entries.

Doesnt matter if there are "dead" entries. Most people spam the best stuff regardless. lol blood claws arent "dead." Doesnt mean they wont spam the better gh.

Everyday I'm derpelin.

Draigo wrote:Doesnt matter if there are "dead" entries. Most people spam the best stuff regardless. lol blood claws arent "dead." Doesnt mean they wont spam the better gh.

Perhaps you would like to explain yourself?

First off GOD I hate mathhammer people.

Second I'm in the Grey Knights are stupidly overpowered boat.

And third, I'm hoping the next Chaos Space Marines book is as broken, so I can have fun playing them again.

KingmanHighborn wrote:First off GOD I hate mathhammer people.

Care to explain?

RustyKnight wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:First off GOD I hate mathhammer people.

Care to explain?

He explains below

Second I'm in the Grey Knights are stupidly overpowered boat.

RustyKnight wrote:

biccat wrote:[The multimelta is marginally better up to AV13, but drops off significantly at AV14.

The relative chances of destroying a vehicle (percentages):
...
Interesting that a multi-melta is better, although not substantially so, except against AV12.

I'm not entirely sure what you did, but your math is off. Here's a list of destroyed results for the various armors against both the Melta weapons and the Psycannon. These assume that the target doesn't get cover, is neither open topped nor a Land Raider Achilles (or similar tank with result skewing special rules), and that the firer is BS4.

Psycannon (2 Shots/4 Shots)
Against AV10=.222/.444
Against AV11=.148/.296
Against AV12=.074/.148
Against AV13=.074/.148
Against AV14=.025/.049

Melta Weapons (1d6 Pen/2d6 Pen)
Against AV10=.241/.327
Against AV11=.185/.312
Against AV12=.130/.296
Against AV13=.074/..253
Against AV14=.019/.210

Time for some limited analysis of these results. As long as it has its 2d6 penetration, the melta weapon outperforms the Psycannon against everything except for AV10 vehicles. A four shot psycannon always beats a 1d6 melta weapon, but a two shot psycannon loses to the 1d6 melta against everything except for AV13 and 14 targets (where it ties and beats the melta respectively).

This is failmath.
Look up binomial theorem.
Doubling shots will not double your chance. Think about it logically. Even a gun with 1 million shots at best has an infinitely close chance of killing a tank 100% of the time.
That means at at best you'll have a 100% chance of killing a single vehicle. Even if I roll vehicle wrecked 4 times doesn't mean that I killed 4 vehicles.

That means for weapon comparisons invovling multishot guns you must use the binomial theorem.

1 shot * (2/3) * (.5) *(1/3) = 1/9 or .11 is the probability for one shot.
but 2 shots is not double that: Proof:

Assume that for any probability, doing the same thing twice should produce double the chance.

A coin has a 50% chance of rolling heads or tails.
If I flip the coin twice, my chance of rolling at least one head (very similar to at least 1 vehicle wrecked) is the following:
head head 1
head tails 2
tails head 3
tails tails 4

3/4 or 75%

You will note that 75% is NOT DOUBLE of 50%.

What if I flip the coin three times?

h h h
h h t
h t h
t h h
t t t
t t h
t h t
h t t

There are 2^3 results: 8 results. 7 of which have at least 1 head
7/8 = 87.5%

The limit of N coins flipped chance of rolling at least 1 head is 100% or 1.

QED

Edit: I guess i'll complete the limit

If n goes to infnite: The probability that N coins produces at least 1 head is the following:

(2^N)-1
/
(2^n)

If I substitute infinite:
2^infinite = infnite

-> Infinite -1
/
infinite

I think the simple fact that there are people that don't understand that Psycannons are worse than Melta weapons means that those same people will never believe that Grey Knights are anything but overpowered.

Just to save people in the know some future posting time.

touche

NO YOU! edit: Smiley here since this is a joke.

You said "Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?"

I'm simply showing that they are not half or more of the top tables in most major tourneys.

But feel free to run off.

Seconded.
Give it a rest already shuma, you lost so what, is pride really worth 20+ pages? The GK hysterics is getting pretty tiresome by now.

Fearspect wrote:I think the simple fact that there are people that don't understand that Psycannons are worse than Melta weapons means that those same people will never believe that Grey Knights are anything but overpowered.

Just to save people in the know some future posting time.

Yes, clearly what makes a powerful codex is not the effectiveness of it's troops, the abillity to shut down other armies, or the skill of it's player, but how many meltaguns you can shove into each orifice.

Oooh ooh, I want in on this.

Shuma Gorath is like the weakest character in Ultimate Marvel Vs. capcom. Goddamn it, have you ever seen anyone pick shuma ever?

Ha! Take your blanket statement and insult at the same time and like it!

scuddman wrote:Oooh ooh, I want in on this.

Shuma Gorath is like the weakest character in Ultimate Marvel Vs. capcom. Goddamn it, have you ever seen anyone pick shuma ever?

Ha! Take your blanket statement and insult at the same time and like it!

I'm sure he'd struggle to even take on Squirrel Girl.

.. but let's not head off on this tangent eh. ta.

RustyKnight wrote:

biccat wrote:[The multimelta is marginally better up to AV13, but drops off significantly at AV14.

The relative chances of destroying a vehicle (percentages):
...
Interesting that a multi-melta is better, although not substantially so, except against AV12.

I'm not entirely sure what you did, but your math is off. Here's a list of destroyed results for the various armors against both the Melta weapons and the Psycannon. These assume that the target doesn't get cover, is neither open topped nor a Land Raider Achilles (or similar tank with result skewing special rules), and that the firer is BS4.

I took the chance of destroying a vehicle (hit, 'wound', table) and, using the binomial distribution, determined how likely or not it was that the vehicle would be destroyed. In excel the formula is:

1-binomdist(0, # shots, percent chance, 0)

The multi-melta has a higher percent chance of destroying a vehicle but the psycannon has more shots.

Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

@biccat and scuddman- Thanks for pointing this out to me. Prior to this, I've always just calculated number of vehicle destroyed results.

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Are they given either?

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Are they given either?

Psycannons? Constantly, it's one of the only ways you see them equipped.

Mind you, this isn't really because it's psycannon versus melta, it's that you get a psycannon inquisitor in termi armor for 80 points, which is a friggin steal, versus a one-use melta

Luckily, theres enough competition for the HQ slots that you dont see a ton of these

targetawg wrote:Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Well played sir.

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Are they given either?

Grey Knight Dreadnoughts can also have multi-meltas or assault cannons with psybolt ammunition, which is a psycannon in all but name.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Are they given either?

Grey Knight Dreadnoughts can also have multi-meltas or assault cannons with psybolt ammunition, which is a psycannon in all but name.

They can have weapons other than autocanons?

ShumaGorath wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Directly comparing these weapons is almost worthless since there is no unit in the entire game that can chose one or the other. Most meltaguns come in multiples for redundancy on light suicide units or close range CC based troop squads. Most psycanons come on standoff high cost squads which are far from disposable

There is no equivalence between the chimera melta vet and purifier psycanon spam. Or between 10 melta pod sterns who combat squad to kill two land raiders or 10 palladins and a GM with 4 psycanons.

Directly comparing the weapons use against vehicles is useless in anything other than pure thought exercise.

Inquisitors in the GK codex can take a combi-melta or a psycannon.

Boom. Mind blown.

Are they given either?

Grey Knight Dreadnoughts can also have multi-meltas or assault cannons with psybolt ammunition, which is a psycannon in all but name.

They can have weapons other than autocanons?

No, taking those options are illegal.

Come to think of it, Land Raiders and Stormravens also get not-psycannons and multi-meltas, although they don't compete against eachother, at least not on the Land Raider variants.

RustyKnight wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:First off GOD I hate mathhammer people.

Care to explain?

gendoikari87 wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:First off GOD I hate mathhammer people.

Care to explain?

He explains below

Second I'm in the Grey Knights are stupidly overpowered boat.

Oh no my hate of mathhammer has nothing to do with the GK. I have my own less angst ridden reasons for my beliefs on GKs.

scuddman wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:

biccat wrote:[The multimelta is marginally better up to AV13, but drops off significantly at AV14.

The relative chances of destroying a vehicle (percentages):
...
Interesting that a multi-melta is better, although not substantially so, except against AV12.

I'm not entirely sure what you did, but your math is off. Here's a list of destroyed results for the various armors against both the Melta weapons and the Psycannon. These assume that the target doesn't get cover, is neither open topped nor a Land Raider Achilles (or similar tank with result skewing special rules), and that the firer is BS4.

Psycannon (2 Shots/4 Shots)
Against AV10=.222/.444
Against AV11=.148/.296
Against AV12=.074/.148
Against AV13=.074/.148
Against AV14=.025/.049

Melta Weapons (1d6 Pen/2d6 Pen)
Against AV10=.241/.327
Against AV11=.185/.312
Against AV12=.130/.296
Against AV13=.074/..253
Against AV14=.019/.210

Time for some limited analysis of these results. As long as it has its 2d6 penetration, the melta weapon outperforms the Psycannon against everything except for AV10 vehicles. A four shot psycannon always beats a 1d6 melta weapon, but a two shot psycannon loses to the 1d6 melta against everything except for AV13 and 14 targets (where it ties and beats the melta respectively).

This is failmath.
Look up binomial theorem.
Doubling shots will not double your chance. Think about it logically. Even a gun with 1 million shots at best has an infinitely close chance of killing a tank 100% of the time.
That means at at best you'll have a 100% chance of killing a single vehicle. Even if I roll vehicle wrecked 4 times doesn't mean that I killed 4 vehicles.

That means for weapon comparisons invovling multishot guns you must use the binomial theorem.

1 shot * (2/3) * (.5) *(1/3) = 1/9 or .11 is the probability for one shot.
but 2 shots is not double that: Proof:

Assume that for any probability, doing the same thing twice should produce double the chance.

A coin has a 50% chance of rolling heads or tails.
If I flip the coin twice, my chance of rolling at least one head (very similar to at least 1 vehicle wrecked) is the following:
head head 1
head tails 2
tails head 3
tails tails 4

3/4 or 75%

You will note that 75% is NOT DOUBLE of 50%.

What if I flip the coin three times?

h h h
h h t
h t h
t h h
t t t
t t h
t h t
h t t

There are 2^3 results: 8 results. 7 of which have at least 1 head
7/8 = 87.5%

The limit of N coins flipped chance of rolling at least 1 head is 100% or 1.

QED

Edit: I guess i'll complete the limit

If n goes to infnite: The probability that N coins produces at least 1 head is the following:

(2^N)-1
/
(2^n)

If I substitute infinite:
2^infinite = infnite

-> Infinite -1
/
infinite

^ THIS IS WHY I HATE IT. You take a freaking game, that involves rolling dice and playing with toy soliders and boil it down to the most hated subject in mankind's history, math. Statistics in particular, but still. There is no need for a page load of a mathmatical formulas to explain which is better. I don't give a about binomial theorem, I want to pick what I like, build a competive, yet fun list to play, and let the dice gods take it from there. All this mathhammer BS does is suck the fun out of the game, reducing it to numbers instead of player cunning, tactics and chance.

Now me, I'm a History and Politics guy, the best evidence to me is to watch who wins the most, and HOW the games are won. If GKs win a lot it might not be there are 'completely' overpowered. But if they routinely table other armies regardless of opponent's army composition, for minimal model loss, there is something to the claim. And from the evidence I've seen, and from games I've watched GKs are at least top tier, if not overpowered. Character's like Draigo don't help either, and I maintain my 'special characters should not be allowed in tournaments and events' stance but it's not my decision so I can't stop anyone.

Now the reason I think they are overpowered is simply because GW wanted the Grey Knights to be a hit hard, hit fast army, but it could not afford to take casualitlies. Problem is by putting so much hitting power, and defensive power into the army, it's hard to get them killed even if you are trying. The number count just isn't enough of a con, to all the pros of the army, and so there is no 'game balance' to them. It's my opinion though. I won't begrudge someone for playing GKs, and if Chaos comes out and it's just as broken, I'm going to be a giddy kitty, especially if it brings my Daemon Prince is back to his 3.5 glory.