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Chimaera wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:I agree with you, if GK halberds don't follow general halberd power weapon rules, than neither do GK staves. All those unusual force weapons the GKs have are AP3 unless otherwise stated in their own rules (like their hammer, which is AP2). GK Falchions, Swords, Halbreds and Staves are all AP3, plus whatever special abilities the GK codex gives for each of them. I don't see how to read the rule in the new rulebook any other way.

The BRB pg60 states that Halberds are axes and as such would be AP2 and +1S & a Warding Staff would count as a blunt weapon AP4 and +2S or do I have this wrong ?

You have this wrong because that part describes regular power weapons, meaning regular power swords, regular power axes, regular power staves, regular halberds. The paragraph on unusual force weapons is what applies to GK weapons, because they are all unusual force weapons (nemesis). Unusual force weapons are AP3, unless stated otherwise. And the only one which states otherwise is the hammer, which acts like a hammer.

Joe Mama wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:I agree with you, if GK halberds don't follow general halberd power weapon rules, than neither do GK staves. All those unusual force weapons the GKs have are AP3 unless otherwise stated in their own rules (like their hammer, which is AP2). GK Falchions, Swords, Halbreds and Staves are all AP3, plus whatever special abilities the GK codex gives for each of them. I don't see how to read the rule in the new rulebook any other way.

The BRB pg60 states that Halberds are axes and as such would be AP2 and +1S & a Warding Staff would count as a blunt weapon AP4 and +2S or do I have this wrong ?

You have this wrong because that part describes regular power weapons, meaning regular power swords, regular power axes, regular power staves, regular halberds. The paragraph on unusual force weapons is what applies to GK weapons, because they are all unusual force weapons (nemesis). Unusual force weapons are AP3, unless stated otherwise. And the only one which states otherwise is the hammer, which acts like a hammer.

I see where you are coming from on the unusual force weapons. GK's just got a CC weaponary downgrade of sorts i.e. not as effective against armour with a 2+ save. Not a bad thing

If I have this right it means Draigo's Titansword is also AP3.

pretre wrote:

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

pretre wrote:Unfortunately, yes it does. If you purchased a power weapon or frost weapon from the SW codex, then it will be a power axe or frost axe. Might I suggest switching to a sword?

Unless he is going to tournaments, making this clear to his opponent should be good enough.

But then we are proxying. If you're cool with proxying in friendly games, that's fine. I'm not a fan.

edit: in our group, we generally allow proxies for testing, but not for long term stuff.

See, that is the problem with such limited classification of weapons -> it left less space for your imagination.

Anyway, i will be clearing to my oponente how my WGBL is equiped with a "frost blade" rulewise, axes still have blades ^^

About the crozius: yeah, i see how things can become tricky here. But Space Wolves codex have no description of what is a crozius, it just tell you, in the army list, that a wolf priest gets a crozius (its in the wargear, and that is the only reference to it in the rules). In Codex Marines the crozius have his own description, wich tell it work like a power weapon. Now, in the new rulebook the crozius is described with diferent rules than in the codex, normally the codex would surpass the rulebook, but the FAQ specifically tell you to use another description. So the reference to a crozius arcanum in the space wolves codex would just point to the BRB. If it was not that "power weapon" in parentesis, fallowing the ONLY reference to crozius arcanun in the Space Wolves Codex. What i am suposed to do about it? In 5th it was there just to point how the crozius worked, in 6th i should ignore the parentesis thing? Or should i consider it a codex rule?

As a fluff fallower, i will use the BRB reference until that is FAQed, but now i understand all the (un)love people have for GW FAQs.

PS: our group allow any type of proxies, it just need to be clear what is what. For an example, i plan to make a "ver-mynn" army after i finish my Space Wolves, they will probably count as IG...

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:PS: our group allow any type of proxies, it just need to be clear what is what. For an example, i plan to make a "ver-mynn" army after i finish my Space Wolves, they will probably count as IG...

Counts as is different than proxy.

Counts as is consistent and generally is something not represented by the rules representing something in the rules. I.e. Skaven in space counting as IG. All of the weapons would be consistent and match expectations for your opponent. Counts-as is WYSIWYG. ("These skaven with heavy armor are carapace vets. Note the melta guns. These skaven with light armor are veterans. Note the plasmaguns, meltabombs and demo charge. These especially impressive looking skaven with a missile launcher and banner, along with my converted Snikt are my CCS. All of my guns are WYSIWYG, but feel free to ask if you have questions.")

Proxy is not consistent and sometimes has things already represented by the rules representing something else. I.e. This lascannon is really a plasma cannon. This coke can is a drop pod. Bad counts-as often falls into proxy. Proxy is, by definition, not WYSIWYG. ("these skaven with lasguns are storm troopers. These skaven with lasguns that look the same are veterans. these skaven with lasguns and a missle launcher are my CCS. Hope you remember all that!")

I love good counts-as. I am not a fan of proxy.

Chimaera wrote:I see where you are coming from on the unusual force weapons. GK's just got a CC weaponary downgrade of sorts i.e. not as effective against armour with a 2+ save. Not a bad thing

If I have this right it means Draigo's Titansword is also AP3.

Uh oh, I think you are right.

Joe Mama wrote:

Chimaera wrote:I see where you are coming from on the unusual force weapons. GK's just got a CC weaponary downgrade of sorts i.e. not as effective against armour with a 2+ save. Not a bad thing

If I have this right it means Draigo's Titansword is also AP3.

Uh oh, I think you are right.

I am getting in to this now. So the follwing get changed but keep their special associated rules (these are not quoted below).

Spear of Vulkan = AP2 power axe +1S & I1.

Ravens Talons = AP3 LC's.

Moonfang = AP3 power sword.

Cassius Crozius = AP4 power maul +2S

Rod of Tigurius = AP3 force weapon.

Talassarian Tempest Blade = AP3 power sword

Anymore out there?

Chimaera wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

Chimaera wrote:I see where you are coming from on the unusual force weapons. GK's just got a CC weaponary downgrade of sorts i.e. not as effective against armour with a 2+ save. Not a bad thing

If I have this right it means Draigo's Titansword is also AP3.

Uh oh, I think you are right.

I am getting in to this now. So the follwing get changed but keep their special associated rules (these are not quoted below).

Spear of Vulkan = AP2 power axe +1S & I1.

Ravens Talons = AP3 LC's.

Moonfang = AP3 power sword.

Cassius Crozius = AP4 power maul +2S

Rod of Tigurius = AP3 force weapon.

Talassarian Tempest Blade = AP3 power sword

Anymore out there?

SPEAR of vulkan would be a power spear i think, so woul follow those rules

You're reading the rules wrong.

Vulkan's Spear, Moonfang, Raven's Talon's, TT Blade are all Unusual Power Weapons. So they keep the rules from C:SM and are AP3/Init.

Cassius doesn't even have a special crozius. He just has a normal one.

Tigurius' rod is just a normal force weapon with MC.

I may be a bit too literal minded, but how are the demon hammers becoming AP 2? As an "unusual force weapon" they're limited to AP3. Can we still treat them as thunderhammers?

P.S. I'm all for them being AP 2, I'm just having issues getting there.

Sarge wrote:I may be a bit too literal minded, but how are the demon hammers becoming AP 2? As an "unusual force weapon" they're limited to AP3. Can we still treat them as thunderhammers?

P.S. I'm all for them being AP 2, I'm just having issues getting there.

Unusual FW are AP3 unless their entry specifies otherwise. The entry for NDH says they act as Thunder Hammers in addition to their special rules. TH are AP2.

lord_blackfang wrote:Is it just me or did nothing gain the Skyfire rule?

Missile Launchers have a new ammo type.

FlaKK missiles R 48" , S7, AP4 Heavy 1, Skyfire

Formosa wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

Chimaera wrote:I see where you are coming from on the unusual force weapons. GK's just got a CC weaponary downgrade of sorts i.e. not as effective against armour with a 2+ save. Not a bad thing

If I have this right it means Draigo's Titansword is also AP3.

Uh oh, I think you are right.

I am getting in to this now. So the follwing get changed but keep their special associated rules (these are not quoted below).

Spear of Vulkan = AP2 power axe +1S & I1.

Ravens Talons = AP3 LC's.

Moonfang = AP3 power sword.

Cassius Crozius = AP4 power maul +2S

Rod of Tigurius = AP3 force weapon.

Talassarian Tempest Blade = AP3 power sword

Anymore out there?

SPEAR of vulkan would be a power spear i think, so woul follow those rules

You are correct it would be a Power lance = AP3/4 & S 3/4.

pretre wrote:You're reading the rules wrong.

Vulkan's Spear, Moonfang, Raven's Talon's, TT Blade are all Unusual Power Weapons. So they keep the rules from C:SM and are AP3/Init.

Truth. I think.

pretre wrote:You're reading the rules wrong.

Vulkan's Spear, Moonfang, Raven's Talon's, TT Blade are all Unusual Power Weapons. So they keep the rules from C:SM and are AP3/Init.

Cassius doesn't even have a special crozius. He just has a normal one.

Tigurius' rod is just a normal force weapon with MC.

I got vulkan wrong as per post above but the rest are correct as I did say I missed out there unique rules.

Cassius has a Crozius which to my understanding in the 6th is a Power Maul.

Tigurius says Rod and to me that means force staff so going by the flavour text in the rules I guess it's AP4 then.. I thought MC put it in the unusual bracket but thinking on I don't think it is, it's a standard Force Stave with MC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grugknuckle wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Is it just me or did nothing gain the Skyfire rule?

Missile Launchers have a new ammo type.

FlaKK missiles R 48" , S7, AP4 Heavy 1, Skyfire

Except we don't know which missile launchers will get this upgrade has it hasn't been FAQ'd yet?

Chimaera wrote:You are correct it would be a Power lance = AP3/4 & S 3/4.

You are incorrect. It is an unusual power weapon, so S+2, AP3 and Init.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chimaera wrote:[Tigurius says Rod and to me that means force staff so going by the flavour text in the rules I guess it's AP4 then.. I thought MC put it in the unusual bracket but thinking on I don't think it is, it's a standard Force Stave with MC?

Yes, MC is a standard property in the rulebook.

For my Tau: WOO! Farsight's Dawn Blade is still "Ignore Armour saves" and 2d6+5 penetration against Vehicles at his Initiative of 5. No nerf here for a change.

Then: BOO! My Farsight army is now pathetically weak against lots of tanks thanks to my 1 unit of Broadsides not being allowed to split fire.

At least our vehicle Target Locks still work.

Goddammit GW...

pretre wrote:

Chimaera wrote:You are correct it would be a Power lance = AP3/4 & S 3/4.

You are incorrect. It is an unusual power weapon, so S+2, AP3 and Init.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chimaera wrote:[Tigurius says Rod and to me that means force staff so going by the flavour text in the rules I guess it's AP4 then.. I thought MC put it in the unusual bracket but thinking on I don't think it is, it's a standard Force Stave with MC?

Yes, MC is a standard property in the rulebook.

This is quite good to work through. So we are basically on the same scipt apart from Vulkan. Why we would it get +2 strength as C:SM doesn't say it is a relic blade although I guess it could fall in to unusual as it has a 6 instant death rule? In which case it would be an AP3 unusual power weapon with that instant death rule?

Codex: Space Marines, P93. "The Spear of Vulkan: This is a master-crafted relic blade."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're thinking of Moonfang.

pretre wrote:Codex: Space Marines, P93. "The Spear of Vulkan: This is a master-crafted relic blade."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're thinking of Moonfang.

Lol just too much info to absorb. I am on your page now (did have Moonfang stuck in my head). Thanks for that.

Ok.. the FAQ for Bolster Defenses seems to change the effects from just "ruins" to "any cover" as it gives a new example that modifies "area terrain".
Since "area terrain" can cover woods that gives quite a boost to Scouting units.
Also, since the Aegis Defense line is considered "battlefield debris" can this also be bolstered, making it a 3+ save?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

MDizzle wrote:WOW from what I can tell Tyranids have no weapon that has the skyfire rule, no allies and no hope no hope at all.

They have Flying MC's which can Vector Strike Aerial units, not really needing it when you can smack them like that, kinda like chaos daemons now.

Vector strike is fairly useless against AV12 fliers or 11 for that matter: a harpy's strength is 5.
(it hits side, and no, you can't smash with strike).

Flying mc's don't get skyfire

EDIT: some of this answered already....oh well.

As far as I can tell it rolls as:

Are you Xeno, and not Necrons?

Feth you.

Tau did alright considering most things, stealth suits are finally able to be considered in a serious manner now.

Necrons got some nice stuff, but took a couple of big hits;
1- night fighting is mostly useless now if you read the new rules, and actually look at a table.
2 - many things are now immune to dangerous terrain tests (if you are doing the tremor build).
3 - Monoliths can still mishap

Tau got Good on:
pulse rifles rapid fire
Stealth survivabiliy
Black sun filters

Tau got lame on;
no target lock
acute sense mostly worthless
no aa
shield drones and broadsides and targeting (too complex to explain).
Stealth suits are still crap offensively and overcosted....so, until the burst cannon gets more than an 18" range....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:

junk wrote:and tau, which have been woefully ignored all through fifth, will see a lot more table time thanks to allies and the uber-stealth bump that stealth suits have received.

How do you figure? Why do so many people seem to be under the impression that better stealth suits are all it takes to "save" Tau?

They were crap before, and they're still crap now, because Tau don't need to waste slots for valuable crisis suits on anti-infantry firepower, which is all stealth suits are good at. They're more survivable now, but still useless.

^ This.

I am hoping that I am missing something with the target locks....perhaps a new codex

helgrenze wrote:Ok.. the FAQ for Bolster Defenses seems to change the effects from just "ruins" to "any cover" as it gives a new example that modifies "area terrain".
Since "area terrain" can cover woods that gives quite a boost to Scouting units.
Also, since the Aegis Defense line is considered "battlefield debris" can this also be bolstered, making it a 3+ save?

Unfortunately not. They are referring to the area terrain attached to the Ruin (covered on pages 91 & 98 of the 6th.

imweasel wrote:

Flashman wrote:Just to clarify, under the missile launcher entry in the new rule book, it clearly states that some units have the option to purchase Flakk missiles in their Codex i.e. Flakk missiles do not automatically come with missile launchers. You have to buy them as an upgrade and need the option to do so. This option will no doubt start in appearing in future Codexes, but doesn't exist at present.

I must have missed that part where it said in their codex.

Once again, right after the option to upgrade, it states you chhose what missile to fire and gives the profile you can choose from. The only other weapon I can think of that you can upgrade is the medusa. That upgrade is missing from its profile from the weapons profile in the rule book. The flakk missile isn't. I would say you get to use the flakk missile until it's faq'ed otherwise.

Railgun listing also says both shot and slug.

Did broadsides get an upgrade? They have railguns?
Of course not, don't be silly. If I run into someone who thinks they get skyfire shots on their missiles, I won't even take my minis out of the case....

So learning that Rage is simply +1 more attack on the charge in...BT got a huge melee nerf. I thought it was a simple +2 Attacks all the time before getting the book in hand (like most rumors were reporting). Why even play a BT army when you can play CSM and spam Bezerkers that put out 35% more wounds than our Crusaders? (Did the math with 1000 points worth of Bezerkers vs Crusaders, with Crusaders having Rage, and both getting the run in....84.66 Wounds to 62.5 Wounds (old PE gave us 70.32 Wounds). -__- I will keep playing them for fluff reasons, but UGH.

A Town Called Malus wrote:For my Tau: WOO! Farsight's Dawn Blade is still "Ignore Armour saves" and 2d6+5 penetration against Vehicles at his Initiative of 5. No nerf here for a change.

Then: BOO! My Farsight army is now pathetically weak against lots of tanks thanks to my 1 unit of Broadsides not being allowed to split fire.

At least our vehicle Target Locks still work.

Goddammit GW...

Can't split fire but being STR 10, AP 1 means that you destroy vehicles more reliably (+2 on the penetrating damage chart).

Grugknuckle wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Is it just me or did nothing gain the Skyfire rule?

Missile Launchers have a new ammo type.

FlaKK missiles R 48" , S7, AP4 Heavy 1, Skyfire

This horse has been beaten in the thread already;
(short answer: there is a new optional type, but no missiles in any codex have them yet).

For the longer version, go back in the thread...

jms40k wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:For my Tau: WOO! Farsight's Dawn Blade is still "Ignore Armour saves" and 2d6+5 penetration against Vehicles at his Initiative of 5. No nerf here for a change.

Then: BOO! My Farsight army is now pathetically weak against lots of tanks thanks to my 1 unit of Broadsides not being allowed to split fire.

At least our vehicle Target Locks still work.

Goddammit GW...

Can't split fire but being STR 10, AP 1 means that you destroy vehicles more reliably (+2 on the penetrating damage chart).

Um, no. 10/1 weapons destroyed vehicles on a 4+ in 5E anyways using the +1 and the old damage chart. There's no change there.

If you want to try to find a bright spot on the new rules for Broadsides, instead focus on the ability to now move and still fire the Railguns.

Wreckoning wrote:

jms40k wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:For my Tau: WOO! Farsight's Dawn Blade is still "Ignore Armour saves" and 2d6+5 penetration against Vehicles at his Initiative of 5. No nerf here for a change.

Then: BOO! My Farsight army is now pathetically weak against lots of tanks thanks to my 1 unit of Broadsides not being allowed to split fire.

At least our vehicle Target Locks still work.

Goddammit GW...

Can't split fire but being STR 10, AP 1 means that you destroy vehicles more reliably (+2 on the penetrating damage chart).

Um, no. 10/1 weapons destroyed vehicles on a 4+ in 5E anyways using the +1 and the old damage chart. There's no change there.

If you want to try to find a bright spot on the new rules for Broadsides, instead focus on the ability to now move and still fire the Railguns.

We could do that anyway with an upgrade which allows the the unit to choose to move with the Slow and Purposeful USR for that turn. 'Course now that rule doesn't allow them to Overwatch but XV88s shouldn't be anywhere where they could be charged anyway.

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:So learning that Rage is simply +1 more attack on the charge in...BT got a huge melee nerf. I thought it was a simple +2 Attacks all the time before getting the book in hand (like most rumors were reporting). Why even play a BT army when you can play CSM and spam Bezerkers that put out 35% more wounds than our Crusaders? (Did the math with 1000 points worth of Bezerkers vs Crusaders, with Crusaders having Rage, and both getting the run in....84.66 Wounds to 62.5 Wounds (old PE gave us 70.32 Wounds). -__- I will keep playing them for fluff reasons, but UGH.

This isn't even the worst of it to me. In an army already strapped for points to HAVE to take the EC and another HQ just truly sucks, not to mention that they decided to give us the Drop Pod Assault rules, but couldn't see to fix the transport costs. Tie this in with the fact that I have 2 armies BT and Nids and you can imagine how I felt reading these FAQs. Genestealers now compete for the spot of Most Overpriced Unit: Fleet Nerfed, can't charge out of Outflank or Infiltrate, lots of cover reduced to 5+, Overwatch.....oh yeah, they Rock for 14 points a pop, Hormagaunts too, there aren't many abilities now more useless considering the unit that gets it than Bounding Leap......YES, let me run faster towards those guns and not be able to charge!!

I modeled my Vanilla Marine Libby in Termie armor by cutting off the head of that ugly ass staff and gluing on the sword part from an old Company Champion.

I now have a Librarian with a Force Axe equivalent. >.>