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Backfire wrote:
Yes, or armies which can get really powerful troop unit - for example, Warboss + bunch of Nob bikers to support a Guard or Tau army. Time will tell if they really make powerful combos.

Real silliness starts with 2000 points, with double FOC. There you can see things like Space Wolves taking 8 different HQ's. You can squeeze many Rune priests there. Or Green Tides with around 300 Ork boyz...

I can't see why they wouldn't be good. If nob bikers plus warboss on bike (or draigo plus paladins) are good on their own as deathstars, I suspect they're good as deathstars in a force that lacks their own (like tau or IG).

Did they ever FAQ that Farsight and Shadowsun can't be taken outside of a points limit, and if not, would it be alright to bring them theoretically as allies?

Cause 60 points for a minimum sized Firewarrior squad is a small price to pay for up to 11 Crisis suits. Farsight's bodyguards are a Point-And-Click unit mostly. They're hard to position, and hard to keep safe, but it would be nasty to have them backing up my Chaos Space Marines.

I got Chaos Space Marines, and I got Tau. Both are kinda incomplete, but now I got a way to use them together so I don't have to buy more models/paint/supplies/etc.

Obviously, it was a scheme to sell more models. Gamesworkshop says they primarily are a model company, not a Rules company, so there isn't some big conspiracy-cause they aren't trying to hide that they are trying to get as much money as they can from us, and they want to give us incentive to Buy Moar Stuff so they will nerf the stuff that everybody has 6 of (Carnifexes, most likely Crisis suits and CSM Daemon Princes in the future) to get us to buy the New Hotness.

Where the scheme falls short is people like me, who have two armies that can run together just fine, and can indeed support each other pretty well.

I don't have to buy a Devastator box and "Make them Horny" (convert to chaos) since I can get Autocannons and Safe Plasma on a manuverable platform-I got the suits to spare, so I can dedicate 3 to my Chaos Space Marines, along with one of the Stealth Teams that just sit around and don't get used, and every tau player has an excess of drones. We have enough drones that if we could field them in comprable units, they'd probably outnumber Imperial Guard Blob squads with bodies on deck (or hovering above...)

Yeah some of the stuff is goofy from a fluff perspective but they are trying to get the guys who are FOTM Marine guys to maybe stay as Codex Marines to get better benefits with Tau, buy more stuff and all that noise.

Hehe. about the Drones. A friend and I were looking at the old 4th Ed (or earlier? 3rd? The one before the current one) Tau Codex, and we realized it was possible to take an army consisting of about 100 Drones of various kinds. It was incredible.

The doubled FOCs is really going to make this version Herohammer like back in the day. Lots of independent characters beating wholesale butt...

Nagashek wrote:
Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I would not complain about it, i would not say a word about it... But hell, you asked...

Dont like the fluff changes? Ok, stay with the fluff you like, tell the others your fluff view when that affect the game (or even when not, is nice to talk about fluff), and have fun explaining how your fluff affect the fluff of a game. You are a space marine player facing tau allied with space marines? Those space marines are obvious traitors, they betrayed the emperor and must die, you opponent will come with an "excuse" for the alliance, and you will be very fluffywise telling him your Space Marine Captain dont believe in it, and will like to tear the throat of the traitors commander. See? Brothers fighting themselves due to slight mistakes of interpretations, that is 40k.

And I was not here in the last 20 years, at least i was not here playing the game... But tell me, it is not true that orkz where hired as mercenaries once? And space marines where not "super soldiers", but just Sorm Troopers with better equipment? The fluff have been twisted and destroyed a lot of times in video-games, books, RPGs and the game itsellf. You are acting like one of those guys who say "i will not play Space Marine TM (the video game), because the bolter there shoot like a machinegun, and we all know that in fluff they shoot fist sized rockets at lower fire rate".

Feel happy if you beloved xonophobic super soldiers now can ally with xenos... Your chapter dont accept that, and like the great majority of them, condemn the practice. Feel happy, at least your favorite race has not been wiped out from the scenario (like squats), or you have no way to play your favorite faction (like genestealers cults).

About Count'as allies: well, lets keep the rule of cool, your Ultramarines have "allied space wolves" just to use cheap missile launchers, a rune priest and a squad with 2 melta's? No problem for me, but make it look good, make the unit make sense, and make his presence fun. Better yeat, make them a "not so conservative" faction within your army, who actually see the Codex Astartes as a guide (not a rulebook), madel them as slightly less disciplined (they have no sarge around!!!). I must say that ork players will bring lots of cool conversions for it... I would even let you play with your genestealer allies in that IGenestealer Cult, it is fluff wise enough. Lets use the rule of cool...

This is a great opportunity for me as I never went all in with any faction. I probably own about 1k points for every army but sisters and GKs.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The doubled FOCs is really going to make this version Herohammer like back in the day. Lots of independent characters beating wholesale butt...

I don't buy it. The big problem this edition is going to be a 2+ save, especially for characters. Most of the time they could rely on going first and beating down models by ignoring their armor saves. Even Draigo and Mephiston, with all of their power, will bounce off even a unit of Tactical Terminators since their weapons are AP3. Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

If anything I see this edition moving away from uber close combat heroes, but more towards support characters like Psykers, and lots of spamming of powerful non-HQ FOC choices like flyers, long fangs, etc.

Of course you could argue that it's Characterhammer since Wolf Guard and all that can do directed shots.

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I wonder what you would have been like if you had been around the time when humans and eldar could breed together, and that was one of the original eldar plans to repopulate their race, back in RT.

Or when the Emporer wasn't dying, he was just asleep from exertion.

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Close combat HQs with dedicated units can do a good job...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I wonder what you would have been like if you had been around the time when humans and eldar could breed together, and that was one of the original eldar plans to repopulate their race, back in RT.

Or when the Emporer wasn't dying, he was just asleep from exertion.

Holy Godess!!! Fluff changes!!!! Run for your lifes!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blokus wrote:This is a great opportunity for me as I never went all in with any faction. I probably own about 1k points for every army but sisters and GKs.

You luccky one

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Close combat HQs with dedicated units can do a good job...

You may want to check out the several threads in YMDC dedicated to that question as that is quite debatable.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459779.page

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Nope, the exceding wounds isn't put on the squad or anything, it just counts towards the combat results.

So even if your HQ only kills one model, he win the fight 1-0.

Yeah, i read it in disbelif. Make no sense. I foresee it to be FAQed (or not at all).

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Holy Godess!!! Fluff changes!!!! Run for your lifes!!!!

It isn't that the fluff is changing, its that the fluff changes run counter to all the Grim Dark goodness that drew us in to the hobby in the first place. Well, all the Grim Dark fluff prior to Matt Ward's GM character fap fest.

What really has changed, other than them shoe horning in Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Tau ?

And who wouldn't want a sweet little harem of Eldar Babes ? Other than having the Inquisition torture and execute you, it seems little a pretty sweet deal.

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

DarkStarSabre wrote:I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

Because it maeks more people buy more tha none army so they can use it as an ally....dirty and under-handed marketing tactics from GW...

DarkStarSabre wrote:I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

Balancing each army out individually takes time and effort.

Making a half-assed allies matrix that completely screws any fluff over takes about 30-60 min.

More time to count money.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

If someone is trying to claim there is a clause in the rules which means I have to play them after I've expressed a desire to play without allies, then they're going to have to provide a rules reference to support their claim. Outside of a tournament - where I have agreed to abide by whatever the TO has described in the rules pack - there is nothing preventing me from walking away from a particular game because of the use of allies, just as if I didn't like the opponent.

I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Dysartes wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

If someone is trying to claim there is a clause in the rules which means I have to play them after I've expressed a desire to play without allies, then they're going to have to provide a rules reference to support their claim. Outside of a tournament - where I have agreed to abide by whatever the TO has described in the rules pack - there is nothing preventing me from walking away from a particular game because of the use of allies, just as if I didn't like the opponent.

You might have missed the point:

Allies allowed as default:
You're being unreasonable, if you demand that others play with Your house rules.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with house rules.

Allies as optional/ask your opponent:
Your opponent is unreasonable, if he demands to be allowed to use allies.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with optional rules.

6th edition has made allies as an official part of the game -> You would be making unreasonable demands on your opponent.

Brometheus wrote:I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Pity he's only Mastery Level 3.

Chrysis wrote:

Brometheus wrote:I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Pity he's only Mastery Level 3.

This. It's in the FAQ.

I was making a joke because of page 3 discussion about Black Staff plus Mark of Tzeentch.

That is how we play him in house rules until new book, anyways. This wasn't against someone random

adhuin wrote:You might have missed the point:

Allies allowed as default:
You're being unreasonable, if you demand that others play with Your house rules.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with house rules.

Allies as optional/ask your opponent:
Your opponent is unreasonable, if he demands to be allowed to use allies.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with optional rules.

6th edition has made allies as an official part of the game -> You would be making unreasonable demands on your opponent.

...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

Person 1: Sorry I don't want to play you because you are a racist jerkoff who breaks my figures by rolling your oversized dice at them.
Person 2: YOU CAN'T DO THAT! I HAVE PERFECTLY LEGAL FORCE!!!!!111!!!
Person 1: Oh, I see that you do. My apologies, lets start rolling our cubes now.

Vain wrote:...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, Vain, yes.

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

I would have made a lot MORE liberal. The rules should not enforce the fluff... That is the wrong way. The players should enforce the fluff and use the rules that way.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

I would have made a lot MORE liberal. The rules should not enforce the fluff... That is the wrong way. The players should enforce the fluff and use the rules that way.

Those are some serious high apple pie in the sky hopes you got their, Mr. Half Glass Full. Unfortuantely, rules exist because people need explicit direction even when the intended actions are very clear in the fluff. In the end, I'm ok with them making allies a part of the game but would have strongly preferred if they were an integral part of larger games only, along with the 2nd FOC (like 2001+ pts), and optional/opponent's permission in smaller ones (2000 and under).