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Anvildude wrote:... I'm ashamed that anuvva Ork would ever say that.

You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

ShumaGorath wrote:This is the apocalypse that I always feared. It's fortunate that I'll likely never play to see the dawn of every model being from a different codex since I suspect that unbeatable flying circus lists and rules written by a drunk will drive me out of the game well before that.

40k has always been a game where people are encouraged to write house rules and pay with whatever they like. Just as with FW items I would expect every game to start with "do you mind if I use X' because even without allies and FW there are some pretty OP characters out there that my opponent may not wish to face.

Bloodwin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:This is the apocalypse that I always feared. It's fortunate that I'll likely never play to see the dawn of every model being from a different codex since I suspect that unbeatable flying circus lists and rules written by a drunk will drive me out of the game well before that.

40k has always been a game where people are encouraged to write house rules and pay with whatever they like. Just as with FW items I would expect every game to start with "do you mind if I use X' because even without allies and FW there are some pretty OP characters out there that my opponent may not wish to face.

I haven't had to regularly give permission for my opponents to use their armies since third. I've never been a fan of house rules or having to soft ban things in the game. If the game starts to break down and forces me to become the arbiter the rulebook should of been I'm not likely to continue to play. A lot of my local playgroup feels similarly. The game has already withered in this area, this edition could well be the nail in the coffin.

ShumaGorath wrote:You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

Sounds legit. As a side note, the more allies rules and the second detachment are (ab)used in the first year, the more likely it is that the social and tourny norm will be to disallow them. Keep the ideas flowing on a regular basis!

I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

WangoFett wrote:Can someone explain to me why Lash of Submission requires a roll to hit (CSM FAQ) but Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't (SW FAQ)?

The same reason Target Locks(Tau) were removed and Fire Control(SW) was left intact, when both should have been FAQ'd to use the Split Fire USR. GW had the FAQs written by different people who weren't allowed to talk to each other, and half of them wanted to finish early to hit the bars.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Anvildude wrote:... I'm ashamed that anuvva Ork would ever say that.

You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

Any ork worth two teeth would actually build orks/gretchin with WYSIWYG wargear, or at least with a weapon using identical stats.

Marines being repainted (if at all) for the new best codex isn't something that allies have brought upon us. I know a kid which uses grey/blue sanguine guard models as paladins.

A tournament I went to actually had an 'Ultramarine Space Wolves' army.

It was an ultramarines army with grey blobs painted over their shoulder pads.

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

If anyone should have been BB with Tau amongst the Imperials, it would have been IG, as Gue'vesa have been an established part of their lore since the army was introduced. But instead, Guilleman apparently takes it upon himself to rewrite the Codex Astartes to let Tau be "A-Okay!" If the fluff also included the idea that the Ultramarines had just been branded Excommunicate Traitoris by the Ordos Xenos and Hereticus, then I'd actually be okay with it. But the truth is that it isn't just Ultramarines who are cool with it (and the change people see in Roboute is clearly him rolling over in stasis) but ALL OF VANILLA SM. That means any Codex compliant chapter (IE: any of them that don't have their own book) will gladly back Tau any day of the week. Sure, the Spacewolves may have horrific mutations, but at least they won't tolerate filthy Xeno superfriends.

Eldar at least makes some kind of sense. The Eldar have been approached on numerous occasions by the Tau for inclusion in the Empire, sometimes with a polite refusal, other times with horrific results (Urien Rakarth and the Tau's naive inability to see the difference in the various Eldar subcultures.) The Eldar see the Tau as energetic, idealistic, and sense in them a great destiny. Almost like a lesser form of their own Exodite cousins. Why not help the Tau out here and there?

And sure, I can just model my army to be consistent within the parent army even as parts of it come from different books. I'm already on that. I've contemplated modelling Morathi on a Reaver Jetbike along with other spell casting bits to create a Seercouncil on bikes. They'd be part of a secret cabal fostered by my Archon. Never brought to Comorragh, but kept well funded and safe until needed in his own little secret webway domain. I was going to use Rangers as the troops choice primarily as their fluff states quite explicitly that their rejection of the Path system takes them all over the galaxy in their travels.

I say, screw it. If they want fluff rape, I will GIVE them fluffrape. "Yes, here are Daemons in the "desperate alliance" with Dark Eldar. It's all Slaaneshi demons." "Here is my Tau Army with Marneus Calgar and his Retinue on Jump packs with Shas'o Fal'shia gue'la Bro'f'ist joining the squad." Then again, I could also try, "Here are my Samhain Eldar with this unit of 'Wraith Guard.' They use the Draigo and Paladin rules. They stand apart from the rest of the army because they just don't like them. Or they're Pathfinders or something. Yeah, that's it. And they got monkeigh TDA and decided to wear it."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Compel wrote:A tournament I went to actually had an 'Ultramarine Space Wolves' army.

It was an ultramarines army with grey blobs painted over their shoulder pads.

I might actually give props to someone who painted their army all black with nice highlights, then magnetized shoulderpads so they could swap them out for WYSIWYG so they could get the latest FOTM SM build.

yeah,

Nagashek wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I don't think the matrix had to be such a mirror image.
The matrix was a dumb idea, each army should just have had a list of allies. Like the x axis was the main army and the y axis who they could ally with.
Tau could have allied with just about everyone. while not every one accepts tau units into their army.

that way IG should have been allowed 'nid amonst their allies - purely for the genestealer cults. while 'nid armies still dont ally with anyone.

PAnic...

Nagashek wrote:
Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

We all know that Ward is secretly Slaanesh. I mean, seriously, he's like a serial rapist loose in a women's prison with a Viagra IV.

Now we have catgirls in game. What next, Female Space Marines? (And if it is, do I get to laugh manically and drink the sweet, sweet tears of fatbeards as they ragequit the game?)

Panic wrote:yeah,

Nagashek wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I don't think the matrix had to be such a mirror image.
The matrix was a dumb idea, each army should just have had a list of allies. Like the x axis was the main army and the y axis who they could ally with.
Tau could have allied with just about everyone. while not every one accepts tau units into their army.

that way IG should have been allowed 'nid amonst their allies - purely for the genestealer cults. while 'nid armies still dont ally with anyone.

PAnic...

That's exactly the solution I was thinking, and for the same reasons. Let IG ally with Nids (No one would do it for anything but Genestealer cults anyway, and how much fun would it be to blow off the dust on your Armored Limo and use the Chimera rules?) Let IG FREELY team up with CSM or Daemons, but only BB with CSM when CSM is your base. This would represent a LATD army getting CSM support, summoning daemons, etc, a CSM army getting cultist support (looking at you, Alpha Legion!), but when Daemons ask for help, the cultists find it a little hard to show up on the other side of the galaxy... or IN THE WARP in time. And, if they cared about 3e fluff, the necrons could be in a desperate alliance with everyone (except eldar, DE likely wouldn't care. That particular tradition given to them by the old ones doesn't seem to matter) as their motivations are their own. Maybe today they want to harvest humans and help the Orks. Maybe tomorrow they want to help Tyranids wipe out a Tau colony in order to scour life from a Tomb World. No one can ever ally with them, though, because they always turn on you...

The Tau should have been desperate allies with SM (and disallowed for the BTs); in previous fluff, Imperials have been known to form pragmatic alliances with the more tolerable xenos if, say, there's a Chaos Warfleet about to land on an Imperial system with a Tau outpost in.

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

The entire allies concept is, for the most part, repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

Sigvatr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

The entire allies concept is, for the most part, repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

^This. Been reading through the main rulebook and the only instance which I can see which presents the possibility of Tau and SM being battle brothers is when,mid-battle with each other, they awoke a Necron Tomb World and temporarily joined forces to fight the bigger threat. Apparently Calgar let the Tau evacuate their ground forces from the planet before launching Exterminatus. That sounds more like Allies of Convenience to me.

I'm with Sigvatr and Malus (the hidden Jam fan?) - I don't like the idea behind the whole Allies thing, and I certainly don't like the allowable pairings and levels they came up with!

A Space Marine letting Xenos evacuate before Exterminatus? That's above and beyond Allies of Convenience.

Alpharius wrote:I'm with Sigvatr and Malus (the hidden Jam fan?) - I don't like the idea behind the whole Allies thing, and I certainly don't like the allowable pairings and levels they came up with!

Oh no, my secret is revealed!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:A Space Marine letting Xenos evacuate before Exterminatus? That's above and beyond Allies of Convenience.

Only as a sign of respect for the Tau's skill at war.

Later on the Ultramarines are noted as having "liberated" an Imperial world from Tau control so Allies of Convenience is more accurate than battle brothers.

They were OK fighting with them when there was a greater threat but after that it's business as usual. Battle Brothers seems more like a permanent alliance, which is impossible unless the Imperium starts giving up its worlds to the Tau expansions freely.

To be fair, the ultramarines tend to like letting the Tau evacuate places before exterminatus....

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

That example would just be extreme laziness on someones part. I was thinking more like captured Imperial Guard Units fighting for Orks, or Tau allies with more Tau Looking gear, etc...

adamsouza wrote:

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

That example would just be extreme laziness on someones part. I was thinking more like captured Imperial Guard Units fighting for Orks, or Tau allies with more Tau Looking gear, etc...

The example will be the most common form of allies. Codexes might as well not even exist.

Sidstyler wrote:

5. I don't even want to dignify that with a response, but that's like saying "It's okay that all of our CC options suck, because now we can take a Blood Thirster!" What in god's name is the point of Kroot then? I'll just take Eldar Rangers or SM scouts if I need infiltrate/outflank and Assault Marines if I need CC. Bad design is bad design, and as much fun as some people might find it, Allies is an obvious cash grab at worst, and a patch for poorly designed books at best.

Allies in a nutshell, and obviously what GW planned when they introduced the rules in the first place. You can't let imbalance like the one that exists between xenos and Space Marines go on for too long if you don't want people to get bored and quit your bs game for lack of variety and obvious favoritism (because no matter how big of a fanboy you are, SM vs. SM battles will get old), which, combined with ever-ludicrous prices that just keep getting higher, is probably attributing to a loss of sales. So what's the easiest way to fix that? Let all the whiny xenos who don't have this or can't deal with that take something from another codex that can. Boom. "Fixed."

Sad thing is it probably will work, it probably will help balance things out a little better and sell more models...but at what cost? How many people out there are really happy with the idea that their pure Tau or pure Eldar armies can no longer function in a competitive environment without having to borrow units from another army? I'm sure as hell not. It opens the way up for some cool themed forces, like traitor Guard with Daemon allies, or that Ultramarines with Macragge Planetary Defense Force that was showcased on "What's New Today", or Chaos Space Marines being able to take actual daemons again (zomg just how it should have been all along!!11), but for some of us it's just going to lead to bs, nonsensical alliances that we have to make out of necessity, or just shelve our armies. Like Tau and Orks, Dark Eldar and Daemons, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves, Grey Knights and any xenos, etc.

So in a way the allies rules still benefit Imperial players the most, because not only does it help them but it's easily justifiable in the background and makes sense. For xenos it's necessary for survival but really hard to justify in a lot of cases, and will no doubt get you a lot of crap from donkey-cave players who don't (or simply don't want to) understand why you have to break the fluff.

I'll accept allies because in order to keep playing the game I kinda have to, but this is seriously the biggest load of crap and really goes to show just how increasingly lazy and uncaring GW is becoming about their product. WHF 8th was a mess as far as I'm concerned. Finecast really needs no explanation. And now 40k 6th, while certainly looking better than WHF 8th did, is not doing much to instill my confidence in this company. I'm tired of paying top dollar (seriously, $80 for that fething book, are you gaking me?) and feeling like I'm getting ripped off. I guess, like most aspects of the hobby, I'm just "doing it wrong", though. I shouldn't be judging the book based on its content but rather how pretty it looks.

This sentiment is very similar to what I've been trying to convey in this thread. Allies serves SM players who want, say, Railguns in their armies, for example. Are allies fluffy? Mostly only by a stretch of imagination. DE, Tau, etc. are not satisfied with being 'allowed' to forge dopey-ass alliances to become competitive. But apparently wanting their army balanced was too much to ask, so here we are...

Allies probably wouldn't be that bad if the armies themselves were balanced. I feel like GW expects me to thank them for their generosity in allowing my lowly xenos to include space marines... As if that's what I always wanted.

If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

Well I plan to use Valhalan allies with my Space Puppies (more for the air cover...).

Mick

Archonate wrote:
This sentiment is very similar to what I've been trying to convey in this thread. Allies serves SM players who want, say, Railguns in their armies, for example. Are allies fluffy?

Allies is one of the oldest concept in 40k - they were around longer than they were not.

I don't think they're going to be as gamebreaking as people think. For example, your SM player wants Railguns in his army. So he buys a Broadside team. That will come mighty useful, no doubt. Alas, he will also have to buy Tau HQ and a troop, which are much less useful to him. Does the whole exercise make his army actually better? Doubtful. I'm sure some 'broken' combos exist but for most part, mono-armies will probably be more cost-effective, at least under 2000 points.

After all, it's not so long since, for example, any Guard player could add Grey Knights or Sister of Battles to his or her army, and did the world end there? Nope...

Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

The eldar one is the most effective, others that ive seen have been deathcompany added to guard to give it melee defense. None of the combos are broke though. I play nids and bt primarily so I doubt I will do alies anytime soon.

warboss wrote:

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

Epidemius and a squad of plaguebearers.

Or, if you really want to be cheap. Nurglings. Cheapest Troop Tax EVER.

warboss wrote:

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

Yes, or armies which can get really powerful troop unit - for example, Warboss + bunch of Nob bikers to support a Guard or Tau army. Time will tell if they really make powerful combos.

Real silliness starts with 2000 points, with double FOC. There you can see things like Space Wolves taking 8 different HQ's. You can squeeze many Rune priests there. Or Green Tides with around 300 Ork boyz...