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Thaylen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

warboss wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

None. They have no elite combat units period and are thus not included in the sample.

What elite CC units due to the tau have?

Shield drones.

I killed Astaroth once with a shield drone. Most embarrassing moment for the BA player.

No no no, it's Gun Drones that are beast at CC. I had a pair of them wipe an entire Khorne Berserker squad once.

Xca|iber wrote:For the moment (until the new codex drops) Typhus is actually pretty good.

His Manreaper gives +D6 attacks, +1S, AP2, has the new force weapon rules, is poisoned (so he wounds on a 4+ against T5+, and with the new poison rules he wounds on a 3+ or 2+ rerollable against T4 and under), not to mention that he's now natural T5, still benefits from Destroyer Hive, cannot fail psychic tests, and can generate two better psychic powers than the ones he currently has (like from Pyromancy or Telepathy), and can still use his Force Weapon Instant Death ability in the same turn.

Typhus + Epidemius lists seem like a pretty lulzy combo right now.

The FAQ states: Change the second sentence to read "The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe" This nerfs him a bit making him swing at Ini 1.

Hazardx987 wrote:
The FAQ states: Change the second sentence to read "The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe" This nerfs him a bit making him swing at Ini 1.

With a Strength 5 Poisoned Daemon Weapon, while his 5 Toughness and Terminator Armor only has to worry about Strength 10 Ap 2 hits for the most part. Plus he gets to expel his terrible old psychic powers for new, sexy powers. Typhus is demonstrably better.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Hazardx987 wrote:
The FAQ states: Change the second sentence to read "The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe" This nerfs him a bit making him swing at Ini 1.

With a Strength 5 Poisoned Daemon Weapon, while his 5 Toughness and Terminator Armor only has to worry about Strength 10 Ap 2 hits for the most part. Plus he gets to expel his terrible old psychic powers for new, sexy powers. Typhus is demonstrably better.

Honestly he only has one terrible power. The ability to hurt everything with a flamer on 4+ with no armour saves, and glance on a 4+? Actually good, and means he gets a template overwatch.

This was abad rant about the Crozius Arcanum. Discovered i was wrong, so i edited it... Sorry. This was NOT mean't to be spam...

Thanks 4 the info

Kevin949 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate

Railguns are no better at destroying a vehicle now than they were before. 4,5 or 6 the vehicle was dead in 5th, now in 6th that vehicle is dead on...4, 5 or 6.

The loss of our Target Locks has made it easy to beat us with target saturation. An Imperial Guard army with lots of Chimeras and Leman Russes will sweep the floor with us easier now than it would in 5th. Now that our Missile Pods can't slow an enemy vehicle with Glancing Hits and need a 6 to penetrate AV12 we are relying on our Railguns to stop the tanks and transports, as opposed to before when we could take out the tanks with the Railguns whilst slowing the Chimeras down with some glancing hits from Missile Pods. Then the next turn we split fire with the XV88s and fire at as many transports as possible.

Now we can shoot a maximum of three targets with Railguns a turn whilst the rest drive towards us at maximum speed unless we pull off a lucky 6.

Well, with the hull point system now railguns actually ARE better at destroying vehicles than they were, but not because of their AP1. Because they're str 10. They're just as likely to pen as before but with every pen removing a hull point and when hull points are gone the vehicle is wrecked (as I understand it, I've been getting my info second hand from my friend), tau are much more likely to take down vehicles on 1-3's as well.

Barring Monoliths, Land Raiders, and the fronts of Leman Russes and anything else with AV13+, wouldn't it be better to drown them in missile pods shots? You're firing 2 shots each, can field 15 of them vs at max 9 of them, and they're more mobile.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Hazardx987 wrote:
The FAQ states: Change the second sentence to read "The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe" This nerfs him a bit making him swing at Ini 1.

With a Strength 5 Poisoned Daemon Weapon, while his 5 Toughness and Terminator Armor only has to worry about Strength 10 Ap 2 hits for the most part. Plus he gets to expel his terrible old psychic powers for new, sexy powers. Typhus is demonstrably better.

Honestly he only has one terrible power. The ability to hurt everything with a flamer on 4+ with no armour saves, and glance on a 4+? Actually good, and means he gets a template overwatch.

Plus with his base powers he never has to test for them, he casts them automatically so no worries about Perils of the Warp.

Can someone explain to me why Lash of Submission requires a roll to hit (CSM FAQ) but Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't (SW FAQ)?

CSM aren't SW, who are probably going to be the most allied faction in 6th edition.

"Hi. I'd like to buy 1 Runepriest with JotWW, a squad of Grey Hunters and Long Fangs to go please."

Why nerf them when they will sell gobs of SW minis. That, and GW hates not-marines.

My own opinion, anyways.

WangoFett wrote:Can someone explain to me why Lash of Submission requires a roll to hit (CSM FAQ) but Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't (SW FAQ)?

Hopefully one day, gw will actually listen to the community....maybe even have a forum, where even if they delete the posts where people whine about the prices, at least they could respond to some of the design decisions.

I hate to say it, but in answer to your question, plus looking at the SW faq....its almost blatant the bias for the wolves.

painfully so.

davethepak wrote:

WangoFett wrote:Can someone explain to me why Lash of Submission requires a roll to hit (CSM FAQ) but Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't (SW FAQ)?

Hopefully one day, gw will actually listen to the community....maybe even have a forum, where even if they delete the posts where people whine about the prices, at least they could respond to some of the design decisions.

I hate to say it, but in answer to your question, plus looking at the SW faq....its almost blatant the bias for the wolves.

painfully so.

GW once had a forum it did not end well.

This wont even be an issue in 5-6 months once the new Chaos book comes out. Lash wont even exist anymore.

Thunderfrog wrote:CSM aren't SW, who are probably going to be the most allied faction in 6th edition.

"Hi. I'd like to buy 1 Runepriest with JotWW, a squad of Grey Hunters and Long Fangs to go please."

Why nerf them when they will sell gobs of SW minis. That, and GW hates not-marines.

My own opinion, anyways.

I doubt space wolves will be more allied than guard. Guard have both the most undercosted flyer in the game and the only realistic form of flyer defense. Both are absolutely necessary to keep up with flying circus MC spam or other flyer heavy lists.

I will agree with you on their flyers and anti-flyer capabilities. I guess that will likely depend on how flyer-heavy a players given meta is.

BlueDagger wrote:People saying Tau didn't get a boost are kidding right?

- 3pts for a Blacksun filter on one model = the whole unit negates nightfight which is more prevalent now.
- Move and shoot 30"
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate
- Terminators will be more prevalent and tau have crisis suits with rapidfire plasma to help with that, plus MSM.
- Tau can now take a farseer for psy protection and divination powers to make fire warriors Twin Linked.
- You can buy an Aegis gunline for your broadsides and have a comms relay for your crisis suits.
- Stealth suits have a permanent 4+ cover and 2+ while in cover
- target lock was removed because railguns are now death incarnate to vehicles. Having 3 seperate targets, ignoring night fire, and 50% chance to splode on pen was a little over the top.

1. DE have it across their whole army for free. Night fight is only cover saves anyway, so that's easy enough to negate with Markerlights.
2. That extra 6" matters nothing when everyone else got the same boost to move and shoot that Tau did. You won't get to take advantage of that 6" very often, or for long when you do.
3. As opposed to 4th or 5th ed when AP1 was king and people spammed Melta. Railguns are no better now than they were before, comparitively, as all penning shots take out a HP.
4. Nearly every other army in the game can take more AP2 than Tau can, and have it in troops choices as well. Most of them are more accuracte with it and it is cheaper. Also JSJ got changed. I say nerf, as I'd rather be able to count on a 6" move than hope for a 7"+ move, but others don't see it that way. I only know I have seen snake eyes come up at crucial times far too often to see random movements as anything but a liability.
5. I don't even want to dignify that with a response, but that's like saying "It's okay that all of our CC options suck, because now we can take a Blood Thirster!" What in god's name is the point of Kroot then? I'll just take Eldar Rangers or SM scouts if I need infiltrate/outflank and Assault Marines if I need CC. Bad design is bad design, and as much fun as some people might find it, Allies is an obvious cash grab at worst, and a patch for poorly designed books at best.
6. Purchasable terrain is cute, and in terms of the Aegis, at least fluffy for the Tau. They normally eschew set defenses, but do prize temporary emplacements used for the opening part of any fight. That said, one could simply make walls a normal part of terrain set up and save themselves some points, which, as Tau pay an inflated cost for everything they have, they can't really afford anyway.
7. Show of hands: how many Tau players will be using stealth suits now instead of the still needed Crisis suits? Anyone? Anyone at all? Hm. 4e was also a "vehicles suck, take more marines" edition (though less so than now, since you couldn't take Marines in virtually EVERY ARMY) and stealth suits were STILL a rarity. I took them because I knew how to dance that 18-24 line that you need to keep them safe. A 2+ cover is amusing and all, but I was happier with actually not even being seen. People would try a few times, get discouraged, then let my Stealth team run amok in their lines in sheer frustration. And if I can't get back into cover because the random die roll to jump back crapped out, now my awesome 2+ becomes a 4+, and my T3 3+sv squad will be wiped out in a single volley. The great thing about steath suits is they kill as many marines on average as Fireknives do, plus they were great against hordes. But now that CC sucks like a low pressure system over Detroit, those Horde armies will not be seen again until 7th ed. Well, I guess there's IG, and they can horde and shoot. But the problem with them is that you'll wipe out one squad and there are a dozen more waiting to destroy those suits. If only you could better saturate your fire. Maybe with some device that allowed you to split your attacks somehow...
8. And Long Fangs can do the same thing, but more efficiently. Especially when combined with the army's ability to proliferate Melta and Plasma weapons. What Target Locks offered Tau, something that actually made me excited for 6th ed, if only for them, was the fact that they could effectively split fire with Rail guns in a meta EXPECTED to shift away from vehicles. This means that you likely wouldn't need more than 4 ever, and the rest of your anti armor would be handled by Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors. This frees up the other points, indeed, the other HEAVY SLOTS that you were taking up for rail guns, and letting you experiment with other fun options. Like Sniper drones. More Pathfinders. More FIREWARRIORS. More (and though I am loathe to admit it) allies!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate

Railguns are no better at destroying a vehicle now than they were before. 4,5 or 6 the vehicle was dead in 5th, now in 6th that vehicle is dead on...4, 5 or 6.

The loss of our Target Locks has made it easier to beat us with target saturation.

Fixed that for you. Target saturation was already a problem with us having fewer and narrower sources of Anti Armor than most armies. Notably the ones fielding the most armor...

Nagashek your whole post is full of win (finally, someone else who actually plays Tau and gets it, I was getting tired of the Eldar player without a clue insisting that I was just too blind to see how awesome I had now become), but this part in particular is so true it's not even funny.

5. I don't even want to dignify that with a response, but that's like saying "It's okay that all of our CC options suck, because now we can take a Blood Thirster!" What in god's name is the point of Kroot then? I'll just take Eldar Rangers or SM scouts if I need infiltrate/outflank and Assault Marines if I need CC. Bad design is bad design, and as much fun as some people might find it, Allies is an obvious cash grab at worst, and a patch for poorly designed books at best.

Allies in a nutshell, and obviously what GW planned when they introduced the rules in the first place. You can't let imbalance like the one that exists between xenos and Space Marines go on for too long if you don't want people to get bored and quit your bs game for lack of variety and obvious favoritism (because no matter how big of a fanboy you are, SM vs. SM battles will get old), which, combined with ever-ludicrous prices that just keep getting higher, is probably attributing to a loss of sales. So what's the easiest way to fix that? Let all the whiny xenos who don't have this or can't deal with that take something from another codex that can. Boom. "Fixed."

Sad thing is it probably will work, it probably will help balance things out a little better and sell more models...but at what cost? How many people out there are really happy with the idea that their pure Tau or pure Eldar armies can no longer function in a competitive environment without having to borrow units from another army? I'm sure as hell not. It opens the way up for some cool themed forces, like traitor Guard with Daemon allies, or that Ultramarines with Macragge Planetary Defense Force that was showcased on "What's New Today", or Chaos Space Marines being able to take actual daemons again (zomg just how it should have been all along!!11), but for some of us it's just going to lead to bs, nonsensical alliances that we have to make out of necessity, or just shelve our armies. Like Tau and Orks, Dark Eldar and Daemons, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves, Grey Knights and any xenos, etc.

So in a way the allies rules still benefit Imperial players the most, because not only does it help them but it's easily justifiable in the background and makes sense. For xenos it's necessary for survival but really hard to justify in a lot of cases, and will no doubt get you a lot of crap from donkey-cave players who don't (or simply don't want to) understand why you have to break the fluff.

I'll accept allies because in order to keep playing the game I kinda have to, but this is seriously the biggest load of crap and really goes to show just how increasingly lazy and uncaring GW is becoming about their product. WHF 8th was a mess as far as I'm concerned. Finecast really needs no explanation. And now 40k 6th, while certainly looking better than WHF 8th did, is not doing much to instill my confidence in this company. I'm tired of paying top dollar (seriously, $80 for that fething book, are you gaking me?) and feeling like I'm getting ripped off. I guess, like most aspects of the hobby, I'm just "doing it wrong", though. I shouldn't be judging the book based on its content but rather how pretty it looks.

Sidstyler wrote: :praise:

Glad you enjoyed my post. The sad truth is that Tau gained nothing that no one else did, and really only gain in a meta shift away from vehicles and CC. Sadly, this is going to bring in stark relief to the reality that no one has wanted to face for years: Tau pay a premium to be a shooting only army and are designed to be terrible in CC as a result, but truthfully are a bad shooting army as well. Nearly any army can out shoot Tau, and this includes armies traditionally thought of as CC oriented sheerly through volume of fire. As much as I see BS4 across the board as a lazy fix, it's the one that makes the most sense to make Tau the sort of army they always should have been and a step in the right direction, even if it's the wrong way to do it.

Taking away target locks removes a potent tool in the Tau arsenal that would allow them to rise above the same lateral shift given to all shooting armies. That isn't to say more tools do not remain, or that we won't be looking at old gear in new ways, but that a major staple to what defines the army has been removed with no other compensation. If it was too strong, just do what you do with countless other armies, GW: leave it in place until you come out with a new army book. You never know: target locks might have been so broken that it drove up the sales of Broadsides and Crisis suits. And wouldn't that have been TERRIBLE. :knowing wink towards Kirby:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Codex Dark Eldar Errata: webwayz are crazy waste of points. Make me breath in relief for not going on with my webway army project. I think Dark Eldar are doomed to be the most annoying shooty army in the game... for player and for opponent... At least now Dark Lances do BIG damage, easy.

Codex Space Wolves Errata: i dont have the rulebook, but someone can tell me wich is the new profile of power fist? (and if it have changed at all). Unwieldly proly mens "cannot get extra attack from second weapon" (so, no ini 1 for axes yay). If so, i can see some of my Wolf Guard getting axes instead of fists...

Codex Sisters of Battle: Sweet one, they give acts of faith to joined units/ICs o.O. And snapfire really make them stand assault better now, i really hope to use lots of flamers and dare my opponent to assault me (grim smile).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
O, i forgot: I think Matt love necrons.

Overwatch rule states you cannot use any weapon that requires a template

Hazardx987 wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Codex Dark Eldar Errata: webwayz are crazy waste of points. Make me breath in relief for not going on with my webway army project. I think Dark Eldar are doomed to be the most annoying shooty army in the game... for player and for opponent... At least now Dark Lances do BIG damage, easy.

Codex Space Wolves Errata: i dont have the rulebook, but someone can tell me wich is the new profile of power fist? (and if it have changed at all). Unwieldly proly mens "cannot get extra attack from second weapon" (so, no ini 1 for axes yay). If so, i can see some of my Wolf Guard getting axes instead of fists...

Codex Sisters of Battle: Sweet one, they give acts of faith to joined units/ICs o.O. And snapfire really make them stand assault better now, i really hope to use lots of flamers and dare my opponent to assault me (grim smile).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
O, i forgot: I think Matt love necrons.

Overwatch rule states you cannot use any weapon that requires a template

But template weapons have a special rule that hit 1d3 times the assaulting squad. Its not overwatch per se, but is trigered by it.

Nagashek wrote:

Sidstyler wrote: :praise:

Glad you enjoyed my post. The sad truth is that Tau gained nothing that no one else did, and really only gain in a meta shift away from vehicles and CC. Sadly, this is going to bring in stark relief to the reality that no one has wanted to face for years: Tau pay a premium to be a shooting only army and are designed to be terrible in CC as a result, but truthfully are a bad shooting army as well. Nearly any army can out shoot Tau, and this includes armies traditionally thought of as CC oriented sheerly through volume of fire. As much as I see BS4 across the board as a lazy fix, it's the one that makes the most sense to make Tau the sort of army they always should have been and a step in the right direction, even if it's the wrong way to do it.

Taking away target locks removes a potent tool in the Tau arsenal that would allow them to rise above the same lateral shift given to all shooting armies. That isn't to say more tools do not remain, or that we won't be looking at old gear in new ways, but that a major staple to what defines the army has been removed with no other compensation. If it was too strong, just do what you do with countless other armies, GW: leave it in place until you come out with a new army book. You never know: target locks might have been so broken that it drove up the sales of Broadsides and Crisis suits. And wouldn't that have been TERRIBLE. :knowing wink towards Kirby:

While certainly not something I would bring to a tourny, my tau did gain something quick and easy via counts as with the wretched allies rule. My ethereal and sniper drone units will now actually see the light of the table as counts-as farseer and eldar pathfinders. Its not perfect but it does bring some life to two otherwise worthless units. The drones will actually shoot with some efficiency and the farseer/ethereal gives me some tablewide psychic defense.

warboss wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Sidstyler wrote: :praise:

Glad you enjoyed my post. The sad truth is that Tau gained nothing that no one else did, and really only gain in a meta shift away from vehicles and CC. Sadly, this is going to bring in stark relief to the reality that no one has wanted to face for years: Tau pay a premium to be a shooting only army and are designed to be terrible in CC as a result, but truthfully are a bad shooting army as well. Nearly any army can out shoot Tau, and this includes armies traditionally thought of as CC oriented sheerly through volume of fire. As much as I see BS4 across the board as a lazy fix, it's the one that makes the most sense to make Tau the sort of army they always should have been and a step in the right direction, even if it's the wrong way to do it.

Taking away target locks removes a potent tool in the Tau arsenal that would allow them to rise above the same lateral shift given to all shooting armies. That isn't to say more tools do not remain, or that we won't be looking at old gear in new ways, but that a major staple to what defines the army has been removed with no other compensation. If it was too strong, just do what you do with countless other armies, GW: leave it in place until you come out with a new army book. You never know: target locks might have been so broken that it drove up the sales of Broadsides and Crisis suits. And wouldn't that have been TERRIBLE. :knowing wink towards Kirby:

While certainly not something I would bring to a tourny, my tau did gain something quick and easy via counts as with the wretched allies rule. My ethereal and sniper drone units will now actually see the light of the table as counts-as farseer and eldar pathfinders. Its not perfect but it does bring some life to two otherwise worthless units. The drones will actually shoot with some efficiency and the farseer/ethereal gives me some tablewide psychic defense.

:chuckles: You're better off leaving your Etherial as an Etherial so you can get that army wide Preferred enemy upgrade. Best 50pt upgrade since the DE haemonculus.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate

Railguns are no better at destroying a vehicle now than they were before. 4,5 or 6 the vehicle was dead in 5th, now in 6th that vehicle is dead on...4, 5 or 6.

The loss of our Target Locks has made it easy to beat us with target saturation. An Imperial Guard army with lots of Chimeras and Leman Russes will sweep the floor with us easier now than it would in 5th. Now that our Missile Pods can't slow an enemy vehicle with Glancing Hits and need a 6 to penetrate AV12 we are relying on our Railguns to stop the tanks and transports, as opposed to before when we could take out the tanks with the Railguns whilst slowing the Chimeras down with some glancing hits from Missile Pods. Then the next turn we split fire with the XV88s and fire at as many transports as possible.

Now we can shoot a maximum of three targets with Railguns a turn whilst the rest drive towards us at maximum speed unless we pull off a lucky 6.

Well, with the hull point system now railguns actually ARE better at destroying vehicles than they were, but not because of their AP1. Because they're str 10. They're just as likely to pen as before but with every pen removing a hull point and when hull points are gone the vehicle is wrecked (as I understand it, I've been getting my info second hand from my friend), tau are much more likely to take down vehicles on 1-3's as well.

Barring Monoliths, Land Raiders, and the fronts of Leman Russes and anything else with AV13+, wouldn't it be better to drown them in missile pods shots? You're firing 2 shots each, can field 15 of them vs at max 9 of them, and they're more mobile.

Honestly, I'm not going to mathhammer it out. I'm sure there are instances where missile pod shots will be more beneficial but the railgun shots are, if I remember, twin-linked as well so you're unlikely to miss with those. I'm not sure on the mobility differences but I would think JSJ would be much more beneficial, considering mobility doesn't matter on 72" range railguns.

Nagashek wrote:
:chuckles: You're better off leaving your Etherial as an Etherial so you can get that army wide Preferred enemy upgrade. Best 50pt upgrade since the DE haemonculus.

The ethereal bomb is something I've considered but I feel its use is even more reprehensible than the allies rules that are now standard. If I can spare the points, I'll go with the later. If I'm playing a small game (1500pts or less), I'll throw the ethereal at the enemy instead.

Kevin949 wrote:Honestly, I'm not going to mathhammer it out. I'm sure there are instances where missile pod shots will be more beneficial but the railgun shots are, if I remember, twin-linked as well so you're unlikely to miss with those. I'm not sure on the mobility differences but I would think JSJ would be much more beneficial, considering mobility doesn't matter on 72" range railguns.

Railguns are only twin-linked on Broadsides giving you about a 75% chance to hit on BS3. The catch with mobility vs range is that you'll still need los to shoot those guns and a savvy player would be hiding his vehicles from your railguns. And if I remember correctly, you only need to hide 25% of your hull to get that 4+ cover now. And if you're using the mobility of a Crisis suit properly, you'll be able to get at the weaker side and maybe even read armour, helping you ensure the kill.

Sidstyler wrote:Nagashek your whole post is full of win (finally, someone else who actually plays Tau and gets it, I was getting tired of the Eldar player without a clue insisting that I was just too blind to see how awesome I had now become), but this part in particular is so true it's not even funny.

5. I don't even want to dignify that with a response, but that's like saying "It's okay that all of our CC options suck, because now we can take a Blood Thirster!" What in god's name is the point of Kroot then? I'll just take Eldar Rangers or SM scouts if I need infiltrate/outflank and Assault Marines if I need CC. Bad design is bad design, and as much fun as some people might find it, Allies is an obvious cash grab at worst, and a patch for poorly designed books at best.

Allies in a nutshell, and obviously what GW planned when they introduced the rules in the first place. You can't let imbalance like the one that exists between xenos and Space Marines go on for too long if you don't want people to get bored and quit your bs game for lack of variety and obvious favoritism (because no matter how big of a fanboy you are, SM vs. SM battles will get old), which, combined with ever-ludicrous prices that just keep getting higher, is probably attributing to a loss of sales. So what's the easiest way to fix that? Let all the whiny xenos who don't have this or can't deal with that take something from another codex that can. Boom. "Fixed."

Sad thing is it probably will work, it probably will help balance things out a little better and sell more models...but at what cost? How many people out there are really happy with the idea that their pure Tau or pure Eldar armies can no longer function in a competitive environment without having to borrow units from another army? I'm sure as hell not. It opens the way up for some cool themed forces, like traitor Guard with Daemon allies, or that Ultramarines with Macragge Planetary Defense Force that was showcased on "What's New Today", or Chaos Space Marines being able to take actual daemons again (zomg just how it should have been all along!!11), but for some of us it's just going to lead to bs, nonsensical alliances that we have to make out of necessity, or just shelve our armies. Like Tau and Orks, Dark Eldar and Daemons, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves, Grey Knights and any xenos, etc.

So in a way the allies rules still benefit Imperial players the most, because not only does it help them but it's easily justifiable in the background and makes sense. For xenos it's necessary for survival but really hard to justify in a lot of cases, and will no doubt get you a lot of crap from donkey-cave players who don't (or simply don't want to) understand why you have to break the fluff.

I'll accept allies because in order to keep playing the game I kinda have to, but this is seriously the biggest load of crap and really goes to show just how increasingly lazy and uncaring GW is becoming about their product. WHF 8th was a mess as far as I'm concerned. Finecast really needs no explanation. And now 40k 6th, while certainly looking better than WHF 8th did, is not doing much to instill my confidence in this company. I'm tired of paying top dollar (seriously, $80 for that fething book, are you gaking me?) and feeling like I'm getting ripped off. I guess, like most aspects of the hobby, I'm just "doing it wrong", though. I shouldn't be judging the book based on its content but rather how pretty it looks.

warboss wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Sidstyler wrote: :praise:

Glad you enjoyed my post. The sad truth is that Tau gained nothing that no one else did, and really only gain in a meta shift away from vehicles and CC. Sadly, this is going to bring in stark relief to the reality that no one has wanted to face for years: Tau pay a premium to be a shooting only army and are designed to be terrible in CC as a result, but truthfully are a bad shooting army as well. Nearly any army can out shoot Tau, and this includes armies traditionally thought of as CC oriented sheerly through volume of fire. As much as I see BS4 across the board as a lazy fix, it's the one that makes the most sense to make Tau the sort of army they always should have been and a step in the right direction, even if it's the wrong way to do it.

Taking away target locks removes a potent tool in the Tau arsenal that would allow them to rise above the same lateral shift given to all shooting armies. That isn't to say more tools do not remain, or that we won't be looking at old gear in new ways, but that a major staple to what defines the army has been removed with no other compensation. If it was too strong, just do what you do with countless other armies, GW: leave it in place until you come out with a new army book. You never know: target locks might have been so broken that it drove up the sales of Broadsides and Crisis suits. And wouldn't that have been TERRIBLE. :knowing wink towards Kirby:

While certainly not something I would bring to a tourny, my tau did gain something quick and easy via counts as with the wretched allies rule. My ethereal and sniper drone units will now actually see the light of the table as counts-as farseer and eldar pathfinders. Its not perfect but it does bring some life to two otherwise worthless units. The drones will actually shoot with some efficiency and the farseer/ethereal gives me some tablewide psychic defense.

So yeah. Here's your answer.

The 'Allies' rules don't only allow you to use the models of other armies. They allow you to use the RULES of other armies. They don't say anything about how the models have to match the army it's from- I'm almost certain that there won't be more than a few Ork armies whos allies aren't just Orky 'counts as's. You can do the same thing with Tau- count Kroot with wings and chitinous carapaces as Assault Marines, or have some sort of giant Battlesuit that counts as a Dreadnaught. Start konvertin', people!

Anvildude wrote:So yeah. Here's your answer.

The 'Allies' rules don't only allow you to use the models of other armies. They allow you to use the RULES of other armies. They don't say anything about how the models have to match the army it's from- I'm almost certain that there won't be more than a few Ork armies whos allies aren't just Orky 'counts as's. You can do the same thing with Tau- count Kroot with wings and chitinous carapaces as Assault Marines, or have some sort of giant Battlesuit that counts as a Dreadnaught. Start konvertin', people!

Except for the psyker shennanigans, the dreadknight is a better fit for a giant battlesuit counts as (in that it has a standard toughness profile instead of armor). I guess whoever made that Tau Metal Gear Solid model now has a way of using it in a non-apoc game.

Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

The 'Allies' rules don't only allow you to use the models of other armies. They allow you to use the RULES of other armies. They don't say anything about how the models have to match the army it's from- I'm almost certain that there won't be more than a few Ork armies whos allies aren't just Orky 'counts as's. You can do the same thing with Tau- count Kroot with wings and chitinous carapaces as Assault Marines, or have some sort of giant Battlesuit that counts as a Dreadnaught. Start konvertin', people!

This is the apocalypse that I always feared. It's fortunate that I'll likely never play to see the dawn of every model being from a different codex since I suspect that unbeatable flying circus lists and rules written by a drunk will drive me out of the game well before that.

... I'm ashamed that anuvva Ork would ever say that.