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Sidstyler wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Dont know, Str 5 on back armor means 5+ glance most of the time. Each glance is another hull point down, and normally you only need 3 glances do get that vehicle down. Oh, if you pen with that ONE shot of melta, you have 50% chance on blowing up the vehicle (1d6+2).

I don't want to keep harping on about this, but still, you have to be hitting rear armor in that case for the burst cannons to be any good. And once again, if you're wanting a tank hunter crisis suits can still do it better with twin-linked missile pods (if we're talking strictly AV12 and below anyway, which we'd have to be), you have more range and can get side/rear shots much easier with a higher-strength weapon.

I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, and that stealth suits can't kill tanks, but they're not really good enough at it for me to consider them "effective", least of all worth replacing a crisis suit squad for.

I see, and i agree... Im not very familiar with the tau codex anyway. Let me just ask one more thing (just for the sake of curiosity), how many shoots that unit would be throwing at S5? At wich AP?

Maybe it is just a very good unit to outflank infantry blobs, and tear them apart ignoring cover...

About Power Weapons: i think the therm, when found in codexes around is to be used as generic, and that now you have the option to model them as Swords, Axes or Mauls, fallowing the regular rules for each one. One example i give is the "power weapon" on Dark Angels units, they can be Power Mauls, based in the veteran sprues...

That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

The stealth suits burst cannon is S5 Ap5 assault 3.

The problem with stealth suits is that they are points heavy and limited on firepower. They are more durable with the stealth rules now, but it doesn't solve the other two issues. Yeah they can be used to take out infantry blobs.... Except the crisis suits can be outfitted better, are more cost effective, and 2W.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

ruminator wrote:Ymgarl are good, but you're giving up a ranged AV slot to take them. Also, multi-assaulting vehicles is nowhere near as good in 6th as you don't get the bonus attacks. Lictors are better as they come in earlier now due to reserve rolls dropping, but multi-wound T4 models are still pretty iffy overall.

Stealers are indeed massively nerfed. My 60 stealer list is never coming out again that's for sure. I think they can still work as smaller broods on the table as broodlord delivery systems.

Mass termagant/tervigon lists with 6 hive guard seems a good solid start. 20-30 gants with TS/AG from the tervigon, preferred enemy from the tyrant. Nice.

Harpies I think are still pretty brittle, but gargoyles look useful especially en masse.

2+ armour seems to be king in this edition, so foot tyrant with armoured shell and dare I say it a tyrannofex may be worthwhile. Not sure I'll take the rupture cannon due to WS3, but go for the infantry shredding templates and charge it right in there.

Broods of fex are still slow and you can only put a single one in a spore. Dakkafex or not at all for me, unless I run them in behind a tyrannofex wall and no one will be even able to see them. Need to see how onslaught really works now in relation to fleet etc.

Sounds like some good thoughts already. It's too bad that as nice as Ymgarls are they are still outdone by Hive guard. If Hive Guard was a heavy support option I'd run Ymgarls in every army.
And yeah your 60 Stealer list is done for a bit. Prolly better to just go with naked Hormagaunts followed by a few Hormaguants with TS/AG with the new would allocation rule. And yeah a walking tyrant with guard is more feasible now, especially with the Look Out Sit role that the tyrant guard can make.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

To be fair, the only reason the 3+ save is so prevalent is because the majority of armies are Marines, who don't even have a single model with less than a 4+ save.


In related news, with the new Sniper rules, we may be seeing a flurry of Scout-based armies.

Anvildude wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

To be fair, the only reason the 3+ save is so prevalent is because the majority of armies are Marines, who don't even have a single model with less than a 4+ save.


In related news, with the new Sniper rules, we may be seeing a flurry of Scout-based armies.

Which conveniently works out real well with the new fortification rules, you can buy an Aegis line with an autogun and set your snipers up in there with their camo cloaks on and be good for a round or two until they eventually get rushed.

Sidstyler wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Dont know, Str 5 on back armor means 5+ glance most of the time. Each glance is another hull point down, and normally you only need 3 glances do get that vehicle down. Oh, if you pen with that ONE shot of melta, you have 50% chance on blowing up the vehicle (1d6+2).

I don't want to keep harping on about this, but still, you have to be hitting rear armor in that case for the burst cannons to be any good. And once again, if you're wanting a tank hunter crisis suits can still do it better with twin-linked missile pods (if we're talking strictly AV12 and below anyway, which we'd have to be), you have more range and can get side/rear shots much easier with a higher-strength weapon.

I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, and that stealth suits can't kill tanks, but they're not really good enough at it for me to consider them "effective", least of all worth replacing a crisis suit squad for.

The cost comparison has never been particularly friendly to the stealth suits when you look at crisis suits at the same time. The ability to infiltrate and flank is nice, but the superior range of missile teams tends to produce the same results without all the messy "getting assaulted" parts. In my mind stealth teams were always meant for dedicated anti infantry, the fusion guns short range negated the stealth teams only real asset (night fight).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dalsiandon wrote:

Anvildude wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

To be fair, the only reason the 3+ save is so prevalent is because the majority of armies are Marines, who don't even have a single model with less than a 4+ save.


In related news, with the new Sniper rules, we may be seeing a flurry of Scout-based armies.

Which conveniently works out real well with the new fortification rules, you can buy an Aegis line with an autogun and set your snipers up in there with their camo cloaks on and be good for a round or two until they eventually get rushed.

If only scouts with camo cloaks weren't the same cost as tactical marines who get a free heavy weapon.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

...Guard do CC?

Only CC I've ever seen was powerblob and even then it doesn't matter. 50+ men with 5-6 power weapons hidden within and stubborn on Ld 9 doesn't care at all. Power Mauls do nothing for that weight of numbers

Agamemnon2 wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

None. They have no elite combat units period and are thus not included in the sample.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

None. They have no elite combat units period and are thus not included in the sample.

What elite CC units due to the tau have?

All of them now that we can ally with everyone but Tyranids. lol

warboss wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

None. They have no elite combat units period and are thus not included in the sample.

What elite CC units due to the tau have?

Shield drones.

ShumaGorath wrote:

warboss wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
That also awsered to my question about Crozius in Space Wolves armies: The crozius is a power weapons who resamble a Power Maul, so it work like a Power Maul (wich is still very good to fight most armored CC units in the game).

Except for anything with a 3+ save which is, to be fair, most elite CC units in the game. Only Orks and Tyranids lack such units and even then Tyranids compensate with enogh 3+ save MCs to make up for it.

Uh, what elite CC unit with 3+ do the Guard have?

None. They have no elite combat units period and are thus not included in the sample.

What elite CC units due to the tau have?

Shield drones.

I killed Astaroth once with a shield drone. Most embarrassing moment for the BA player.

Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, I think it looks fething sloppy. I personally don't think it would have taken that much effort to update the fething dates on them when they're already updating the FAQ. You got a problem with that?

No, sorry, I'm out of line here, I apologize. I forget, I'm not a web developer so I have no right to criticize.

lol, "armchair" my ass. Next you'll tell me I have no right to judge Finecast as a gakky-quality product because I'm not a resin caster. Speaking of quality the content of the FAQs themselves is also bs, and also reeks of laziness. For example, "Tau target locks do nothing", when it would have been just as easy to say "Target locks reference this rule now instead". Unless it was done for "balance", which I don't think I've seen a very compelling argument for yet, other than the fact that Tau are more like everyone else's buddies instead of their own army. But if it's because of the Allies rules then why can Space Wolves long fangs still do it?

To sell more SW models, of course! Space Wolves are a little known, underplayed army in sore need of a buff. Therefore they kept it, and Tau, long dominating the tournament scene, received a well deserved nerf.

Personally I think removing the Target Lock was an effective way of making certain Tau received no net benefit from the new rule set. With them, the new vehicle rules would have been a coup for Tau. Without TL? A lateral shift at best.

Nagashek wrote:Tau received no net benefit from the new rule set.

Yes, move and shoot 30" guns are clearly only a side-grade.

I didn't see it mentioned, so I'm sorry if this is duplicate news, but forge world says they will have their FAQ's out by the end of the week. (via FB)

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

Davor wrote:I kid, I kid, but wierd they still have January 2011 as last update. So UNPROFFESIONAL.

Yeah I know, really makes GW look like a bunch of fething clowns in my opinion. That's how seriously they take their jobs.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Well a small unit with a fusion blaster could be an effective tank hunting squad with that mobile 4+ cover save. Move 6", run D6" (call it 3" then jetpack 2d6" (7" = 16" movement with average rolls. That'll get them down the sides of the board quickly, especially if they start in an infiltrated deployment, ready to hit vehicles from behind/side on turn 2. Equip the Team Leader with the Fusion Blaster and give him a targeting array for BS4. If he misses then you try glancing the vehicle to death by riddling it with Burst Cannons.

...first of all, I would disagree strongly with the idea that this is an "effective" strategy (one BS4 melta shot, and if it misses then try to glance with S5 guns...I haven't been able to take a real good look at the new rules yet but I don't think things have changed that much that S5 is suddenly awesomesauce at killing tanks), but even if you could argue that stealthsuits might be at all useful now, they still really aren't because you can't afford to lose even a single Elites slot to them. Tau armies rely on Fast Attack/Heavy Support choices to take out tanks, they're the ones best suited for it and they're slots that have no real competition anyway, your Elites are the ones that are going to be killing what comes out of them in pretty much every single game you play (and all of you guys thinking that fire warriors are suddenly going to be any good at it because of whatever minor "boosts" they got, prepare to be disappointed...fire warriors shouldn't be doing anything but sitting on objectives, and since you can throw grenades now, maybe lobbing an EMP at something that gets too close). Not to mention that as far as glancing tanks to death goes, crisis suits do that so much better anyway with missile pods: twin-linked shots at S7 being fired from 36" away > bunch of S5 being fired from sneezing range, which kinda defeats the entire purpose of your improved stealth in the first place.

Stealth suits aren't good. They weren't good before, and they still aren't now. Don't get me wrong, I wish they were, so I'd have an excuse to use the fething models I bought, but until GW gets a bright idea and makes them troops or something then it's not happening.

That's all my opinion, anyway.

Dont know, Str 5 on back armor means 5+ glance most of the time. Each glance is another hull point down, and normally you only need 3 glances do get that vehicle down. Oh, if you pen with that ONE shot of melta, you have 50% chance on blowing up the vehicle (1d6+2).

I hate to say it, but overall tau don't have too much trouble with the vehicles that have av10 in the rear...we have some other options.

As a competitive tau player (yeah, I know, its an oxymoron) I have to say that I have experimented with stealth suits quite a bit...
Honestly, their trouble was never their resilience to being shot at...
* Opportunity cost - less crisis suits
* range of their weapons
* lack of resistance to assault (exacerbated by the short range of their weapons).

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT discounting the value they offered in either;
* opportunistic tank hunting back/mid field
* a marker team (effective IMHO only at 1850 or much more)
* really annoying your opponent and creating a diversion because of the above two points.

Now, I have not played a lot of games in sixth YET, and I can admit that my perspective may change based upon NEW information I don't have....BUT
I don't see these changes yet reducing their drawbacks or significantly increasing their value.

I love these guys...and this may help a bit in the times I have already decided to used them (one of my 2k lists uses a stealth marker team...a mobile marker team is quite useful, and at that point level I can afford to get more crisis suits by exercising HQ bodyguards....I admit its not a great list, but it has done well at competitions AND I enjoy it due to it being a "non-standard" tau list) ...but overall...I am more excited about the possibility of my firewarriors being able to move and shoot 30"..

Now, if someone could PLEASE tell me why they took away target locks?
If we have a new dex coming up...um....just remove them then?

I don't get it.

davethepak wrote:
Now, if someone could PLEASE tell me why they took away target locks?
If we have a new dex coming up...um....just remove them then?

I don't get it.

Because they suddenly realised there was an army out there who could do something better than a Marine Codex. Long Fangs can only shoot at 2 different targets, a unit of three broadsides with 2 Target locks could shoot at 3 different targets.

Space Marines aren't allowed to be second best at anything.

Also when that new codex eventually comes out Target Locks better be back in. Splitting fire with Target Locks has been one of the Tau abilities since they were first released. Taking that away is akin to taking away "...And They Shall Know No Fear" from Marines (but less game balancing).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Tau received no net benefit from the new rule set.

Yes, move and shoot 30" guns are clearly only a side-grade.

They are, actually. If you think that alone is enough to make Tau awesome now you're being foolish.

People saying Tau didn't get a boost are kidding right?

- 3pts for a Blacksun filter on one model = the whole unit negates nightfight which is more prevalent now.
- Move and shoot 30"
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate
- Terminators will be more prevalent and tau have crisis suits with rapidfire plasma to help with that, plus MSM.
- Tau can now take a farseer for psy protection and divination powers to make fire warriors Twin Linked.
- You can buy an Aegis gunline for your broadsides and have a comms relay for your crisis suits.
- Stealth suits have a permanent 4+ cover and 2+ while in cover
- target lock was removed because railguns are now death incarnate to vehicles. Having 3 seperate targets, ignoring night fire, and 50% chance to splode on pen was a little over the top.

Other than the target lock nerf, Tau got way better. Kroot and Firewarriors can now move and shoot 24 and 30". Shas'els and team leader xv8's now get precision shot as with broadsides. 2d6 in assault phase. Auto jink and still pretty easy to get 4+ cover on skimmers w/ 25% behind cover, turn sideways and hide the front you get 3+ cover. Hit and run goes to the entire unit. Snap shots all around, given BS1 but still when the enemy declares charge they will be in rapid fire range. If their charge roll comes up short they can't move. Can't assault after a run and even if you stand still during run it still counts as running. Take iridium armour and stim. injectors to get a 2+ and FNP. AP1/AP2 you get a 5+ up or cover save which if you go to ground behind an aegis your getting 2+ cover. You can perform "look out sirs" on a 2+ w/ a Shas'el or O'. Basically a melta and or lascannon is the only thing that can insta kill your HQ during shooting which you can pass off. Puts Tau up a few notches if ya ask me. And if you still want that CC, you can ally w/ marines all day.

Don't forget defensive grenades giving stealth!!

RandyMcStab wrote:Don't forget defensive grenades giving stealth!!

If the enemy is within 8". For tau if they are within 8" a +1 cover is the least of their worries lol.

BlueDagger wrote:

RandyMcStab wrote:Don't forget defensive grenades giving stealth!!

If the enemy is within 8". For tau if they are within 8" a +1 cover is the least of their worries lol.

Interesting, i must have missed that in the rule book...makes the venomthroape quite useful...5+ cover save from the fog...+1 for stealth, or +2 for nightfight being greater than 24" away...not a bad protection for shooting!

BlueDagger wrote:
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate

Railguns are no better at destroying a vehicle now than they were before. 4,5 or 6 the vehicle was dead in 5th, now in 6th that vehicle is dead on...4, 5 or 6.

The loss of our Target Locks has made it easy to beat us with target saturation. An Imperial Guard army with lots of Chimeras and Leman Russes will sweep the floor with us easier now than it would in 5th. Now that our Missile Pods can't slow an enemy vehicle with Glancing Hits and need a 6 to penetrate AV12 we are relying on our Railguns to stop the tanks and transports, as opposed to before when we could take out the tanks with the Railguns whilst slowing the Chimeras down with some glancing hits from Missile Pods. Then the next turn we split fire with the XV88s and fire at as many transports as possible.

Now we can shoot a maximum of three targets with Railguns a turn whilst the rest drive towards us at maximum speed unless we pull off a lucky 6.

- On a 4 railguns explode the target rather then wreck and everyone else in the game got worse at destroying vehicles

- You plasma rifles now are rather dangerous to vehicles as well. Missile pods will destroy enemies more reliably then 5th due to hull point removal. In 5th you could glance all day and never kill your target.

- yes you hit 3 targets but those 3 targets are dead. You will in large see less mech in the competitive scene over time due to their drastic loss in use.

I'm not seeing issues with Tau as much has I'm seeing issues with your playstyle. You;ll have to adapt like all of us and realize that Tau got a significant boost.

Just feel lucky you aren't mech Eldar, we got out face wrecked by 6th.

You have to consider the meta too in your considerations.

You might not be fighting parking lots in a few months. I think we will see necrons ascendant, and armor is an absolute joke to them.

Also, IG meched up heavily for a variety of reasons, and a lot of them are gone now. AV12 is pretty easy to glance to death. Melta Drive-bys? Not unless you like snap shots.

I think the quantity of vehicles will go down in favor of quality of vehicles. And Railguns care nothing for quality.

People are making lots of "summaries" on the utility of their favored armies, so i decided to do something like that for space wolves:

In my view:

We loose dreadnoughts forever. Dreads where kinda fragile in the 5th, but now they are just walking pieces of to-be scrap metal. With the possible reduction on vehicle numbers per army, this got even worse...


Wolf Scouts are now tottally unreliable. Ok, they where kinda of a beat at 5th (on the roll to see wich board they entered). Now, they will surelly come by the side you want, but will have one lucky shoot against one vehicle, instead of the ability to surely kill parking vehicle units... Anyone who ever used the melta bombs on parking artillery know what im talking about.

Grey Hunters are now the best troops in the entire game, no doubt about that. The regular doubt was around genestealers and wolfs, and i dont see this rules helping other shooting troops. They still umbalanced, and still at the top.

Long Fangs are the same, into a meta who turned shooting better, so they are better.

The razorback las-plas will probably pass on (its easy to destroy the turret, it is easy to destroy the tank). If it stay, it will be a pricey transport option, with chance to deal some damage. I will probably keep a transport for my LF, but im not sure about its nature.

Bikes and Jump Infantry got generaly better, we have the 2 worst options on this around marines (im not sure, but due to price, around all the codices too), we dont lost anything anyway.

Thunder Wolf Cavalry are even better now: Jump Infantry without disvantages.

The Majority of our heavy support was simple vehicles, they all got nerfed, and we dont have flyers.

Terminators are overcosted for space wolves (at least when compared to the new refreshed power of thundernators)

And at the end: Overwatch, Counter-Attack and the tripple combo (bolter, pistol, chainsword) at the regular guys is evil.
Let me stop here, rapidfire you, and ask you to charge me on your turn, do you dare it?

A Town Called Malus wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:
- AP1 is king so railguns decimate

Railguns are no better at destroying a vehicle now than they were before. 4,5 or 6 the vehicle was dead in 5th, now in 6th that vehicle is dead on...4, 5 or 6.

The loss of our Target Locks has made it easy to beat us with target saturation. An Imperial Guard army with lots of Chimeras and Leman Russes will sweep the floor with us easier now than it would in 5th. Now that our Missile Pods can't slow an enemy vehicle with Glancing Hits and need a 6 to penetrate AV12 we are relying on our Railguns to stop the tanks and transports, as opposed to before when we could take out the tanks with the Railguns whilst slowing the Chimeras down with some glancing hits from Missile Pods. Then the next turn we split fire with the XV88s and fire at as many transports as possible.

Now we can shoot a maximum of three targets with Railguns a turn whilst the rest drive towards us at maximum speed unless we pull off a lucky 6.

Well, with the hull point system now railguns actually ARE better at destroying vehicles than they were, but not because of their AP1. Because they're str 10. They're just as likely to pen as before but with every pen removing a hull point and when hull points are gone the vehicle is wrecked (as I understand it, I've been getting my info second hand from my friend), tau are much more likely to take down vehicles on 1-3's as well.