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So, I got an absolute steal on some Dark Angels models, and couldn't pass up the price. As such I find myself with three Dark Talons, Sammael (on bike), an a Talon Master Landspeeder.

I own plenty of scouts I could easily repaint to be DA, and as such, feel like I have 1000-ish points of very competitive stuff on my hands.

My question is, if I don't plan to invest in more Dark Angels, where would I go if I am planning Imperial Soup? My wife owns thousands of pts of Militarum, and Sisters, so I have a ton of options there, and I could reappropriate parts of my old Marine collection if needed.

I'm thinking the stuff here has Scouts for anti-deployment shenanigans, and anti-horde in droves, but am looking for anti-armor suggestions.

For context, the meaningful games around here are played under ITC format, and Zedsdead will tell you we have some tough-as-balls players coming to even store level events.

I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.

Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.

Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.

If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.

Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.

 daedalus wrote:
I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.

Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.

Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.

If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.

Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.

Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.

So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.

Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.

Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.

If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.

Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.

Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.

So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?

Their feet. They have a 30" range on their gun. A round of movement gives them an effective 36" range, which is will pretty much ensure they can hit something of value turn 1.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.

Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.

Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.

If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.

Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.

Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.

So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?

These boots are made for walking...With 30" range and 6" move you can usually zap something first turn. Walk forward in a stately pace with Azrael and Brother Bethor (a Chapter Ancient). I take Hellblasters and Devastators with Lascannon to help if I am going the long way across the board.

Hellblasters are undeniably good, but I want to remove them from my list because they’re the only Primaris models I’m running and it just doesn’t look right to me on the table. I’ve painted up a Plasma Cannon Devastator squad to replace them and satisfy my aesthetic tastes, but I haven’t put them on the table yet. Mathhammer wise they look like a respectable substitute and they make better use of Grim Resolve. Have any of you tried both, and if so, which do you prefer? For clarity it’s 5 Hellblasters or 9 Devastators with 4 cannons and a few changes to accommodate the points variation.

IandI wrote:
Hellblasters are undeniably good, but I want to remove them from my list because they’re the only Primaris models I’m running and it just doesn’t look right to me on the table. I’ve painted up a Plasma Cannon Devastator squad to replace them and satisfy my aesthetic tastes, but I haven’t put them on the table yet. Mathhammer wise they look like a respectable substitute and they make better use of Grim Resolve. Have any of you tried both, and if so, which do you prefer? For clarity it’s 5 Hellblasters or 9 Devastators with 4 cannons and a few changes to accommodate the points variation.

Yo
Well you could add in a squad or two of inceptors and run 3 units of the primaris troops. That's addresses the aesthetic

I prefer Hellblasters because they move 6" every turn. Really need Azrael tho. And I'm building Aggressors to complete the blob.

Yeah, if you're running Hellblasters, you need Azrael. You've gotta maximize their output to make them worth it, and he will do that.

Hell blasters should have Azzy an Ancient and a Lt with a jetpack

 zedsdead wrote:
Hell blasters should have Azzy an Ancient and a Lt with a jetpack

And possibly a Darkshroud for that -1 to hit.

Can we consider them to be efficient when we're actually paying hundreds of points in characters/units to give them boni ? I'm all for buffing the right stuff, but you're basically building your whole list around Hellblasters at this point. Your opponent could have first turn and focus them, and then your plans falls apart.

 Aaranis wrote:
Can we consider them to be efficient when we're actually paying hundreds of points in characters/units to give them boni ? I'm all for buffing the right stuff, but you're basically building your whole list around Hellblasters at this point. Your opponent could have first turn and focus them, and then your plans falls apart.

Two units of 10 Hellblasters, plus Azrael, a Lieutenant, an Ancient, and a Darkshroud clocks in at around 1100 points and change, so there is definitely room for other stuff to keep your opponent busy. Maybe drop a couple of distraction units like Reivers, or have a little firebase of Lascannon Devastators with a Master, or for good anti-infantry, a Talonmaster, Sammy in Sableclaw, a Dark Talon or three, hell, even the old reliable Assault Cannon Razorback. Yes, the Hellblasters are definitely the most dangerous thing and will catch a lot of aggro, but they won't be the only thing in the list.

One thing I'm wanting to try will be a flyer wing with a Stormraven (kitted out for anti-infantry) and two Dark Talons. I'd rather have a Fire Raptor instead of a Stormraven, but I'm unlikely to get one soon.

Hellblasters+Azrael and Chapter Ancient. They don't need anything more. Maybe a very very cheap Liutenaunt.

 Galas wrote:
Hellblasters+Azrael and Chapter Ancient. They don't need anything more. Maybe a very very cheap Liutenaunt.

I include an apothecary with mine. They kill a hellblaster, he goes down firing, and then next turn stands back up.

Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?

I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.

I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?

I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.

I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.

Check the descriptions of the ancient and Azrael. Also chekc the auspex stratagem.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?

I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.

I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.

I've been playing nothing but ITC since I started running these guys. They haven't been to a tournament yet, but I'm going to 1 GT, and 5 or 6 Major's, starting next month, with them this year.

The objectives are challenging at times, especially against horde armies, but against non-horde armies, I've just absolutely dominated.

Building a list around Hellblasters isn't a bad thing. I like to add the LT with jetpack and HF blade since he allows reroll 1s on wounds so buffs them more. The pack and blade make him my go to for counter assault and late turn Obj grabbing.

and yea...needs the Drk Shroud as well

So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.

Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.

How many scout squads are needed to properly screen your army? If i could get away with using none i would, but my local meta is deep strike heavy, especially a raven guard player who likes to infiltrate agressors and deeps strike loads of plasma with that hq that gives reroll all misses.

Agressors seem like a good option for anti horde, especially since they seem pretty cheap for thier fire power.

What is the best choice between a second 10 man hellblaster squad or a 5 man inceptor plasma squad, while the inceptors have a harder time to get rerolls, being able to deeps strike seems like a good option to have.

 ThePie wrote:
So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.

Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.

put Azrael on a 32mm base. I talked to several Tournament organizers who said 40mm is too big for a model with a powerful aura that comes on a 25mm base.

I strapped a 90's plasma pistol on mine to satisfy WYSIWYG.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 ThePie wrote:
So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.

Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.

put Azrael on a 32mm base. I talked to several Tournament organizers who said 40mm is too big for a model with a powerful aura that comes on a 25mm base.

I strapped a 90's plasma pistol on mine to satisfy WYSIWYG.

Good points, i will make sure to do that as well.

So what primaris units do you use in your army and how effective do you find them?

I've been wondering what a banner would look like on a primaris model backpack. I like it.

How did you manage the join between the two? Greenstuff, or did you flatten the rounded portion of the backpack?

 ThePie wrote:

So what primaris units do you use in your army and how effective do you find them?

Any primaris standing next to Azrael is super effective, especially Hellblasters and Aggressors. Bonus points for a company ancient.

Plasma Inceptors certainly have a place too so long as you can get a captain next to them when they drop, although Black Knights compete for that niche because they get Sammael, Speed of the Raven, and sometimes a darkshroud and/or talonmaster.

What does everyone think is the minimum # of Hellblasters needed to make an ancient worthwhile? Ive considered it for my list, but with only 10 hellblasters (and plasma inceptors likely landing outsid his aura) I'm not sure he is worth it.

 EOD Tech wrote:
What does everyone think is the minimum # of Hellblasters needed to make an ancient worthwhile? Ive considered it for my list, but with only 10 hellblasters (and plasma inceptors likely landing outsid his aura) I'm not sure he is worth it.

I thought about this a lot and instead of answering that question I just brought enough Aggressors to be surely worthwhile.

The company ancient is worth at least 30 points as a model with 4 wounds and 3 attacks, so he's worth taking if his banner can squeeze more than 33 points of value from dying Hellblasters, which happens to be the cost of one Hellblaster model.

It's harder to put a number on one more plasma shot. But I think the break even point is somewhere between 5 and 10 Hellblasters. So if you have 10 Hellblasters absolutely take an ancient, then give him a power sword or fist to help protect them.

Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.

 EOD Tech wrote:
Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.

I found ancient quite usefull in many situations. One time a knight killed 6 hellblasters, and as they were dying they managed to kill a stormtalon

 EOD Tech wrote:
Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.

Yeah, I stick to the Company Ancient. That extra 20 or so points for the 2+ to hit isn't really worth it to me. Especially since it's still a 50/50 if they're going to shoot in the first place.

Kitbashed myself a Company Ancient, as well as a cheap Azrael, which I built just by adding a flag on the backpack of the Dark Vengeance Master Thinking about building a better one when I'll have more kits though, I'm working with scrap.

Thinking about placing the Ancient with Azrael either on the backfield with my 10 Hellblasters and the 4x plasma cannons Devastators, or just constantly walking to get in rapid fire range with the Hellblasters. It will depend on my opponent's army, if I'm playing against Tau I'll just wait them to come nearby and see if they die in blazing glory. I'm already picturing the dying Primaris finding the strength to overcharge his gun and take revenge in a fiery explosion.

You could have the Ancient strolling alongside anything really, even with Deathwing Terminators so that they make their points back more efficiently, or even Knights. Although I prefer Ezekiel for accompanying Knights. I really want to build a deathstar of 10 Knights, Asmodai, a DW Ancient, Ezekiel and Belial. Belial is not even mandatory. 4 Attacks for each Knight, and a last one when dying, rerolling all failed hits, and maybe wounds too if Righteous Repugnance passes.

I'll definitely try this in an Apocalypse game someday.