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 Primark G wrote:
That is so bogus. You have not given any advice on telling which are good units to bring. Saying something is not good doesn’t count. You don’t see me trolling tyranids threads now do you??

Him as a main nid player doesnt mean he doesnt know the game or another army well enough, your the one making it negative here, ive read this full thread only commenting a couple times, and i hate readying from you.

You only say something is good and then get mad if others dont agree and go off on long topics about nothing.

And the few what you call positve comments is just "I like that, or I have a firend that likes that" When talking about what IS and what ISNT competitive you need to see ALL the Pros and Cons of that unit, if that unit is easily counter, if the current meta makes it worst or better, etc... critical judgement is what competitive is,

Here is example to what this thread SHOULD be about "what is better A or B?" "Well A is, but with how the current meta is, there is X amount counters to it, but B is also bad b.c of Y, here is unit C that is what you are trying to do, it counters the meta and has a nice price point"

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

Try telling him to git gud.

Essentially the wisdom to be had so far from you and Primark G.

IMO none of those are good reasons.

Never said it was a tournament winning army, just looked like a nice place to start.

In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

Try telling him to git gud.

Essentially the wisdom to be had so far from you and Primark G.

I seen a lot of moaning in my time and sometimes not gittin gud is truly what's needed. Skill does play a part.

Still lookn for lists if you got 'em.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Porphyrius wrote:
In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

*some* of his reasoning is valid. Let's be clear.

I feel he is mostly trolling the thread and has not provided much of anything constructive.

Meh, then don't respond.

. . .

Question: Anyone have clarification about Cherubs for Transport/Combat Squads? I originally thought they didn't take a spot, however they have stats and are technically a <CHAPTER> INFANTRY model. So 9 Marines and a Cherub can Combat Squad/Ride in a Rhino etc. ?

That should prolly be okay.

Except the negative side is not point out flaws. Take scout bikes, so put them up as a good answer for chaff. The response I get "well they are not shining spears."(which I debunked btw) Or plasma inceptors "oblits are better." Their "advice" is if any army has a similar but better option x is terrible.

I'll posit this right now scouts are great for creating space, and protecting characters.

I've also put forward several times that I think going mono chapter is a mistake (no response ever given).

If competitive = top tier in a GT then it is ranked by player not faction and for marines to be competitive they need to take say Sean Nayden as their General then they will make top tables at a GT.

I think that in progressive missions (the norm) RG is a bad crutch and gun lines are bad.

I also think RG is not the way to go.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Porphyrius wrote:
In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

*some* of his reasoning is valid. Let's be clear.

Fair, that's why I said potentially accurate

 Primark G wrote:
I have watched them take out super heavies in one volley.

You are a troll.

Superheavy chassis, for comparison (against at ten-man Hellblaster squad, worst-case scenario is outside rapid-fire without rerolls and not overcharging, best-case scenario is rapid-fire overcharging with a Chapter Master and a Lieutenant):

Baneblade chassis, T8/26W/3+. No FNP, no Inv. Average 2.2 wounds worst-case and 20.8 wounds best-case. 17% chance (best-case) of one-rounding it.
Knight chassis, T8/24W/3+/5++. Average 1.5 wounds worst-case, 13.8 wounds best-case. 1.7% chance (best-case) of one-rounding it.

It gets worse from there. The only time a unit of ten Hellblasters has a better than even chance of one-rounding a superheavy you're running the Dark Angels stratagem, and that's ~580pts for a battery you've got to get in fifteen inches of the target with. Fundamentally if you want to kill a superheavy with plasma Hellblasters are a pretty poor way to do it; Inceptors are cheaper per plasma shot and have a built-in delivery mechanism, ten plasma-cannon Devastators take up more slots and have more redundant bodies but are harder to avoid (given that most superheavies you're remotely effective against outrange your Hellblasters by a fair margin), and ten Company Veterans in a drop pod are still pretty close in points.

So whether Hellblasters are effective or not "I have watched them take out superheavies in one volley" isn't a particularly helpful statement, given how improbable and wildly inefficient doing that actually is.

Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

Okay so we all know now. It does not need to be repeated belligerently ad nausem.


Okay here is some things to think about when using Hellblasters...

1) Take the stock incinerator - 30" range rapid-fire for an effective 36" range. 36" is pretty good range IMO.

2) Keep them in cover when possible for the sweet 2+ save.

3) If you play DA then if they don't move they auto reroll 1s to hit due to being Intractable. Also DA can pop a strategem for 1 CP that adds +1 dmg... really great when you rapid fire but still good if you have to move to get into range.

I position mine to during deployment typically to be a beta striker. If I know my opponent is going to want to approach me from a certain direction they will eat some red hot plasma.

Now we are getting somewhere. The issue is this: every starcannon, heavy venom cannon, predator autocannon, overcharge plasma cannon, etc is going to be first striking those hellblasters unless you cough up ~300 pts for a transport.

Your list has to offer something more compelling to shoot those weapons at, and marines kind of fail in that arena, imo. Basically, hellblasters fail if your opponent has basic target priority skills. That doesn't sound competitive.

I'm not saying Hellblasters are bad, the AP-4 is actually relevant when trying to clear hard infantry targets out of cover and the range works reasonably well, I'm just saying that "can one-round a superheavy" is a bogus comparison because they usually won't and trying is ignoring the things they're good at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Now we are getting somewhere. The issue is this: every starcannon, heavy venom cannon, predator autocannon, overcharge plasma cannon, etc is going to be first striking those hellblasters unless you cough up ~300 pts for a transport.

Your list has to offer something more compelling to shoot those weapons at, and marines kind of fail in that arena, imo. Basically, hellblasters fail if your opponent has basic target priority skills. That doesn't sound competitive.

I've found that's actually an arena the Fire Raptor is quite good at. It's huge, scary, has a nasty reputation, makes people fail at target priority skills, and can eat quite a lot of starcannons/heavy venom cannons/predator autocannons/plasma cannons/whatever.

Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

I put hellblasters in the "okay" bin. BA can't pump their offense, but I can use the FNP banner to make them troublesome to remove. Against some lists, it makes a big difference. Against others, not so much.

Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Martel732 wrote:


Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Yeah, that is massive.

Altioc is VERY popular in my play group. Probably because IG is also popular. With lascannon and autocannons, I can just lob them in without having to think at all, even though my accuracy is reduced.

That goes goes for any shooty unit - it does not make HB any worse.

Actually, it does. It vastly increases their chances of killing themselves, which marines can not afford.

 Primark G wrote:
That goes goes for any shooty unit - it does not make HB any worse.

Jumpin' Emperor on a pogo stick, yes it does! It basically prevents them from overcharging, more than halving their damage potential.

If that happens then:

Use a character for rerolls

or

Don't super charge

or

Use strategem

-1 doesn't automatically shut them down. Your army should be robust enough to adapt for these situations.

Rolls of "2" still kill your hellblasters with a -1 in play. Even with a chapter master, you still die 11% of the time.

Not supercharging defeats the entire benefit of plasma.

The stratagem is only for Ultramarines. Not a valid options most of the time.

 Primark G wrote:
If that happens then:

Use a character for rerolls

or

Don't super charge

or

Use strategem

-1 doesn't automatically shut them down. Your army should be robust enough to adapt for these situations.

WTF are you talking about? They always use rerolls if they overcharge, but -1 makes them fry themselves on 2's too, meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll that, and even then the risk is usually too great. And no, an army that uses significant amount of points on Hellblasters is not robust enough that it can adapt if the damage output of that unit drops under the half.

Hellblasters are not worth their points if they can't overcharge, simple as that.

They can only reroll if there is a character nearby or in the case of smurfs there is a strategem to reroll 1s.

"...meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll..."

That is what I said - did you even read it ?!

I use one six man squad.

 Primark G wrote:
They can only reroll if there is a character nearby or in the case of smurfs there is a strategem to reroll 1s.

But one obviously always puts a re-roll character next to them. A cheap captain preferably. And not everyone is a smurf.

"...meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll..."
That is what I said - did you even read it ?!

And I said that it is too risky. Did you read? Furthermore, that requires one to invest into more expensive character in form of a special character (assuming one is available to your chapter, which may not be the case) or burn three command points for the CM stratagem.

I said to use a character for a reroll. I said there is the option not to super charge... DA can still inflict 2 dmg when not super charging. Every SM army has access to a captain.

 Primark G wrote:
I said to use a character for a reroll. I said there is the option not to super charge... DA can still inflict 2 dmg when not super charging. Every SM army has access to a captain.

And the captain is not enough if there's -1 in play. And not to supercharge is not an option. If you can't supercharge, you can leave the Hellblasters home. And DA are not vanilla marines.

Why are you repeating what I already said?