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2019/12/25 03:20:59
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
the_scotsman wrote: Not inevitable in an absolute sense, but inevitable in the sense of: if you want a hundred million dollar star wars spectacle film trilogy and Lucas doesn't want to make another pet project, it's not going to be an "auteur" film. It's going to have to contend with finance drones who don't care about what's in the movie, only that people go see it.
From finance drones standpoint, the new trilogy was a huge success. It allowed them to establish a new generation of fans, made them a bunch of cash, and they got in and got out without creating an expensive cast of primary actors they have to keep including and paying more and more in each movie. Fan backlash probably even helped them - Daisy Ridley, Mark Hamill and the others are probably 10000% done getting heaps of death threats on the daily.
But is it making them a ton of money? Remember, Disney coughed up $4 billion for Lucasfilm and the rights to Star Wars. Thus far:
TFA had $2 billion in gross sales, and a $780 million profit.
Rogue One had $1 billion in gross sales, and a $319 million profit.
TLJ had $1.3 billion in gross sales, and a $417 million profit.
Solo had $392 million in gross sales and a $77 million LOSS
TROS has had it's first weekend sales twice that of Solo, but quite a bit lower than TLJ, much less TFA.
Thus far they've only made back roughly a third of their investment in Lucasfilm. And I hope you noticed the direction sales are going - they need at least six more TLJ's to break even, but it doesn't look like they're going to GET six more TLJ-level sales anytime soon.
Much less the TFA-level sales and profits they no doubt expected to be making, which is why they shelled out the $4 billion in the first place.
This is looking at things somewhat linearly.
Those are just movie sales. Do we have stats for merchandise? Toys, models, action figures. The Lego kits man! Then there's the games. EA might be taking all the flak for the Battlefronts but both sold well, and Fallen Order seemed to do okay. Disney gets a cut of all of that, and then there's the comics and books. Rebels did well, Resistance flopped, but Mandalorian is arguably the horse dragging Disney plus across the finish line right now.
Just looking at the box office for the films is patently insufficient to determine how well Disney is doing off its investment. I'd be surprised honestly if they weren't well on their way to covering the base cost. That's not to say they don't have problems. The sequel Trilogy has unquestioningly damaged the brand name and it shows in the box office, but Disney has had a fair amount of success elsewhere, so it's not like the horse is dead.
Ignoring the rest of this thread cause spoilers and debates. I just want to know one thing. Is this movie worth the price of a ticket to watch on the big screen?
2019/12/25 08:27:35
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
As far as training with Leia goes, 1) Aside from the Leia Poppins scene we have very little on-screen evidence Leia was trained in much of anything Force-wise, and 2) Rey was pulling powers out of her nether regions well before she ever met Leia, much less had time to train with her.
Ok, regarding Leia's training level, at this point did you ever see ROS?
Spoiler:
Luke Outright says she completed her training to the point where she built a lightsaber and could match him in saber combat
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/12/25 11:26:59
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Breotan wrote: Ignoring the rest of this thread cause spoilers and debates. I just want to know one thing. Is this movie worth the price of a ticket to watch on the big screen?
Its Star Wars at Christmas - what else do you want to see on the big screen? Go and treat yourself.
If nothing else its one of those films where you can talk to your mates about it. Even yesterday I bumped into a friend I hadn't seen in a long while and have been concerned about his health and the first thing he said with a cheery face was...
"So, have you seen it?"
Oh, Merry Christmas to you all and may the force be with you all in 2020!
Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.
2019/12/25 11:53:09
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Breotan wrote: Ignoring the rest of this thread cause spoilers and debates. I just want to know one thing. Is this movie worth the price of a ticket to watch on the big screen?
Anyone who liked it is going to say yes. Anyone who didn't is likely to say no.
It's a 'yes' from me.
2019/12/25 12:09:14
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
the_scotsman wrote: Not inevitable in an absolute sense, but inevitable in the sense of: if you want a hundred million dollar star wars spectacle film trilogy and Lucas doesn't want to make another pet project, it's not going to be an "auteur" film. It's going to have to contend with finance drones who don't care about what's in the movie, only that people go see it.
From finance drones standpoint, the new trilogy was a huge success. It allowed them to establish a new generation of fans, made them a bunch of cash, and they got in and got out without creating an expensive cast of primary actors they have to keep including and paying more and more in each movie. Fan backlash probably even helped them - Daisy Ridley, Mark Hamill and the others are probably 10000% done getting heaps of death threats on the daily.
But is it making them a ton of money? Remember, Disney coughed up $4 billion for Lucasfilm and the rights to Star Wars. Thus far:
TFA had $2 billion in gross sales, and a $780 million profit.
Rogue One had $1 billion in gross sales, and a $319 million profit.
TLJ had $1.3 billion in gross sales, and a $417 million profit.
Solo had $392 million in gross sales and a $77 million LOSS
TROS has had it's first weekend sales twice that of Solo, but quite a bit lower than TLJ, much less TFA.
Thus far they've only made back roughly a third of their investment in Lucasfilm. And I hope you noticed the direction sales are going - they need at least six more TLJ's to break even, but it doesn't look like they're going to GET six more TLJ-level sales anytime soon.
Much less the TFA-level sales and profits they no doubt expected to be making, which is why they shelled out the $4 billion in the first place.
This is looking at things somewhat linearly.
Those are just movie sales. Do we have stats for merchandise? Toys, models, action figures. The Lego kits man! Then there's the games. EA might be taking all the flak for the Battlefronts but both sold well, and Fallen Order seemed to do okay. Disney gets a cut of all of that, and then there's the comics and books. Rebels did well, Resistance flopped, but Mandalorian is arguably the horse dragging Disney plus across the finish line right now.
Just looking at the box office for the films is patently insufficient to determine how well Disney is doing off its investment. I'd be surprised honestly if they weren't well on their way to covering the base cost. That's not to say they don't have problems. The sequel Trilogy has unquestioningly damaged the brand name and it shows in the box office, but Disney has had a fair amount of success elsewhere, so it's not like the horse is dead.
Never said it was. And you're potentially right about merchandising - although the amount of TLJ merchandise that lingered for months in various clearance sections might argue against that.
But it's clear that as a MOVIE franchise, Star Wars is in pretty serious trouble.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2019/12/25 13:20:47
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Remember that they never planned that this trilogy + whatever other franchise movies they had or were planning were going to make up for the massive purchase cost. They are in for a long haul and there will be more SW movies. "Story will live forever..."
And they (maybe) can learn from their mistakes and come up with something which gets people excited again, in few years.
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2019/12/25 22:47:48
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: They’ve confirmed an Old Republic film, possibly trilogy. Unsure if that’s Rian Johnson’s one though.
He'd be a terrible pick for that. The Old Republic setting of the lore kind of runs on idealized Star Wars. It's not the place for subverting the premise.
If Johnson were to ever be given a shot again, it should be one that actually played to the kind of Star Wars film he seems to want to make. A Darth Bane film, a Solo movie, or even another Rogue One style spec ops films (maybe Republic/Imperial commandos) would be a much better fit for him than anything in the franchise mainline.
Breotan wrote: Ignoring the rest of this thread cause spoilers and debates. I just want to know one thing. Is this movie worth the price of a ticket to watch on the big screen?
Its worth it, you can laugh at the movie pretty much all its length.
2019/12/25 23:25:21
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
The word for King is Spanish is "Rey". The Emperor is basically King of the Sith/Empire. So maybe, just maybe Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter was planned from the start?
Kinda how Darth Vader is similar to Dark Father in German (I think German, but could be another European language), thereby hinted at who he was in a New Hope.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/26 02:44:59
There are videos detailing episodes of the old droids cartoon that has a LOT of similarities to prequel and sequel trilogy stuff. Including rey and kylo ren.
Lance845 wrote: There are videos detailing episodes of the old droids cartoon that has a LOT of similarities to prequel and sequel trilogy stuff. Including rey and kylo ren.
the_scotsman wrote:Well, here's where you and I agree then. I MO the biggest weakness of the sequels in general and TFA in particular is the constant use of OT references as shorthand to get a message across quickly.
I can see that, yeah. One thing I noticed with my examples about other films doing the whole "hero beats stronger villain" was that in every case the hero (Luke or Anakin) taps into the Dark Side, it is made explicitly clear and how it grants power.
Now, Rey *might* have been tapping into the Dark Side or her own latant Palpapowers, but we're not really shown or told that in any real way, other than her suddenly changing the dynamic of the fight. Essentially, we see the effect, but no cause.
Rey closing her eyes to turn the fight is evoking Luke in Empire before dropping off the platform (and the next thing she does is drop down a cliff) and her delivering the series of brute force overhead swings immediately afterwards is (Imo anyway) her tapping in to the anger in her in the same way Luke does in Return.
I think the difference between Luke in ESB and Rey in TFA is that while both characters do "win", they win in different ways that speak more to the narrative importance.
Luke "wins" in ESB by running away, by knowing that to stay is to be doomed and be captured and potentially turned against his friends. He's far outmatched, he's compromised, and he knows it. Narratively, him running away also serves as a chance to keep Vader intimidating for an encounter where he can be decisively beaten (ROTJ) without some environmental effect causing another showdown, as well as upping the stakes for Luke to get better and succeed where he previously failed.
Rey wins in TFA by pummelling Kylo to a pulp on the round, without suffering against her morals (aka, falling to the Dark Side with meaningful consequences or even setting up her own darkness) - there's no room for her own growth against Kylo from an ideological standpoint, she's just beaten him. If anyone should be the protagonist after this, it's Kylo.
Realistically, Rey should have "won" like Luke did - realising her life meant something other than just throwing it away in a lightsaber duel she was outclassed in. Plus, that's an even better message to tell people - instead of "have faith, and you'll pummel your problems to the dirt", we get a more touching and personal "hey, you're better than wasting yourself on something that you're getting nowhere with - prioritise your own safety".
I just disagree with the assertion that she wins "easily" and that it makes any less sense than obi Wan beating maul how he did. That was the single laziest "I dunno he wins now I guess" moment in star wars history, and beyond the score the weakest fight overall, it basically had zero emotion beyond trying to look cool.
I disagree with that, because we see all the mechanics of how Obi-Wan wins. We know that Qui-Gon's lightsaber is still there, it's never been removed from the scene. There's a pragmatic reason to use it (Kenobi's has been kicked away). Maul is clearly taunting, and is gloating in his victory. We see the lightsaber begin to move, using the Force (which we know Kenobi can use competently). We've also seen him performing very good acrobatic feats, so him jumping is completely possible, from what we've already seen.
Everything is set up, all the moves are possible we know they can be done, and is allowed to happen because Maul demonstrates a true flaw.
As soon as Rey opens her eyes after her little slow-mo bit, she is always, without fail, in command of the fight, until Kylo grapples her at the end, and then gets his face split open. We aren't shown how Rey is suddenly so capable, we aren't shown a worsening of Kylo's condition, and we aren't even told retroactively how she did it. She just does.
Yes, it had emotion, but emotion without coherency is just as flawed as coherency without emotion in my eyes, and as a result, I would take the TPM fight over the TFA fight any day, because it makes more narrative sense.
I'll take that fight over many of the 'all sizzle and no story' fights we got in the first two prequels.
I'd rather have a fight that serves the narrative better and maintains audience understanding of the events within it than one that has characters succeed for unknown reasons, and where narratively inconvenient*.
*as in, Rey should have lost, because it was her first fight against her antagonist, and beating them in their first real battle removes a lot of tension prematurely.
You wouldn't have Luke beat Vader in their first fight, because it removes from Vader's threat factor, and because it would allow for a greater cathartic release when Luke finally *does* beat him in their next fight.
I can see where you're coming from with that. I did have a huge problem taking the antagonists seriously in the new trilogy, which led to the biggest problem I had with TLJ which a lot of people seemingly shared, that it seemed like the protagonists were failing due to their own stupidity rather than the overwhelming power of the first order.
But I disagree that having Rey win the fight against Kylo is NECESSARILY bad - it's just bad if the narrative you're going for is a traditional Luke Skywalker style hero's journey.
I'd argue that the narrative tension present in Rey is - and should have been - a tension between whether who we're seeing onscreen is a Luke or an Anakin. Kylo being just another Vader and Rey being just another Luke following the same story beats would have been just a meaningless rehash. In my eyes, the biggest failure overall of the sequels was Disney not having the balls to stick to the more interesting original story ideas that TLJ flirts with.
The Jedi were not ideal, a total commitment to emotionless aesceticism led to them encountering all kinds of moral injustice and Wile E. Coyote level traps throughout the prequels and just blithely accepting them. And if the setup for TFA tells us anything, it's that trying to set up everything the same way just failed faster and harder.
I think viewing the story from the perspective of a patented Disposable Dark Side Apprentice we see so many of come and go throughout the prequels is an interesting perspective, as is handing us another Anakin-level "Chosen One" right after we saw the whole fall of Anakin in the prequel trilogy.
As to Obi-wan being justified in beating Maul because "we know he's good at jumping"...I can see how that could be done well, I just disagree that it was in any way during Phantom Menace. Maul is clearly supposed to be the arrogant, hot-headed, eager bad guy who gets beaten because of his hubris, but there is basically no setup for that. If anything, every time he's on screen previously in the film he's moving slowly, deliberately, and methodically, patiently tracking the heroes and even doing stuff like deliberately pulling his hood back and delivering lines slowly. His reaction time up until that point in the fight is practically superhuman, he fights two people at once to a standstill and the second he's alone against a jedi master he takes him down in an extremely short period of time.
His "gloating" is slicing his still-ignited lightsaber across the floor. He doesn't shut his lightsaber off, he doesn't step to the edge to deliver any Villanous Monologues. He doesn't act like he's expecting his opponent to lose his grip and fall, he acts like he knows he's going to jump back up and he's ready to finish him off. We don't even see what Maul does with his lightsaber before getting cut in half, we just get a close up on his face as he does a comedy reaction shot before falling into the pit. His lightsaber goes from ignited and ready to "What lightsaber? Maul never had a lightsaber!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/26 12:44:47
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/12/26 14:29:37
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Elbows wrote: Rian Johnson will never do another Star Wars film. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that's a thing.
Because he is?
All confirmed and everything?
Thats just smoke until the movie hits the theater. I agree that Disney won't let him near another one.
I am surprised the Rogue One or GotG Director is not more involved.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2019/12/26 15:56:55
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
With a $1,500,000,000 or so profit from the box office alone, it is clearly nothing by doom and gloom at Lucasfilm Towers.
To say nothing of DVD, BluRay and Download sales.
Or to put it in it's proper prospective, a $2,500,000 LOSS when accounting for the money spent to pay for Lucasfilm in the first place...
Yeah, because if there's one thing we know about Disney, it's that they make their money off of butts. in. seats. Theater ticket sales, baby, that's their bread and butter. They would never make a large fraction of their profits off of... moichendizing.
please don't attach non wargaming images to dakka.
Reds8n
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/27 10:58:58
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/12/26 18:54:31
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
The real question is, will Kathleen Kennedy still have a job in a week? She very nearly lost it after Solo tanked, and only retained her post because Iger couldn't find anyone who a) had her level of industry contacts, and b) was willing to risk their careers by being in charge when Episode IX hit the screens in case IT tanked too.
And while TROS may not be tanking, it's certainly not performing like a main sequence film is expected to...
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2019/12/26 18:58:22
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Elbows wrote: Rian Johnson will never do another Star Wars film. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that's a thing.
Well I dunno. They let JJ Abrams to have another shot.
Any way, Johnson is developing his own trilogy. It's a fact. Whether it will ever get filmed is another matter altogether. It costs Disney little to keep 1 guy on a payroll coming up with ideas, so why not? It's not the only horse they have put money on. If they think his ideas suck, they fire him and dump the script, no biggie.
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2019/12/26 19:18:06
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Breotan wrote: Ignoring the rest of this thread cause spoilers and debates. I just want to know one thing. Is this movie worth the price of a ticket to watch on the big screen?
Its Star Wars at Christmas - what else do you want to see on the big screen?
Jumanji 2?
1917?
Frozen II?
Little Women?
Just spitballing......
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2019/12/26 19:30:34
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
It’s still going ahead. Doesn’t matter whether you enjoy his fare or not.
Holy crap, did you just try to quote an article from four months ago? You're way behind the "What's going on in Star Wars" game. You've missed about a dozen points where they've made clear that's not going to happen. But, you can keep hoping if it makes you feel more internet-superior I suppose?
2019/12/26 19:39:08
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
I've never walked out of a movie before but the thought crossed my mind. I felt terrible for dragging friends to see it on Christmas day. We all left extremely dissapointed and let down.
I didnt watch spoilers or even the trailer to try and keep a fresh mindset. I really wanted to like it. It ruined Star Wars for me to the point where I'm sort of just disgusted about the entire series and how let down I was. It was unbeleiveable bad.
I will say one good thing - the film's variety of landscapes and cgi space visuals were really well done. I absolutely loved the sunken Deathstar idea and the final space battle looked great.
