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Hiyas
I had a situation where my opponent said he had rolled invisibility. However I never saw him roll any dice and he never mentioned he was rolling for psychic powers. He became defensive when I mentioned I did not realise he had already rolled for powers.

Invisibility is a game breaker and sure enough he went on to spam it thru the entire game.

What should I have done? How is the best way to handle this sort of thing?

Use the excellent resource here.: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/597998.page

Should avoid any issues in the future

Ask him if he rolled it in front of you. (Obviously he didn't.) Ask if he asked you if you needed to witness the roll. If he rolled it out of sight, and didn't clear it with you first, politely but firmly request he reroll it. If not, then don't play him.

If I understand correctly, he said that he had rolled for his Psyker's powers and got Invisibility, but you didn't notice him do the roll...

I'm not sure that anything in the chart linked (which is both handy and amazing) actually helps with that, aside from pointing out when things should happen (which, admittedly, would help make rolls more public, if everyone is careful to do things at the proper time). In this sort of case, in my group, the person generating the roll usually asks if the other player(s) want the rolling person to re-roll. Usually, the answer is "No, that's fine", since we all trust each other. Generating Psyker powers is supposed to be a publicly-viewable roll, though, so if there's not a basic trust present, then the rolling player shouldn't be rolling unless he knows the other player is paying attention, in the first place. In that case, it seems fair to ask for a re-roll. If the rolling player is touchy, it seems fair to point out, "Well, the roll is meant to be publicly-viewable, and you didn't do that."

Unless it's an opponent that you know and/or trust, the response is - "Sorry, I didn't see you make that roll. Please do it again."

I'd explain to them the importance of explaining to their opponent what they are doing, ensuring dice a rolled in a visible manner and at the right time because many people might perceive shenanigans and not want to play them again.

After explaining that I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, let them keep the dice roll. If the game is full of shenanigans I'd simply not ask to play them again.

The problem with that is that this way with long running effects an opponent can always claim later to not have seen you cast it and tell you to re-roll. Using officialy accepted tokens is the only way to go imo, they stay on the table as soon as they are cast and unless someone is realy good at distracting people there is no way to drop it on the table without the other person noticing.

Thanks for the replies gents. Yes there were one or two other incidents.

I knocked over my techmarine on my tfc and when I went to stand the tech up he got all heated and said it should go in front of the tfc......

Also a couple of my sgt models have pistols, but being IF I normally run them as bolters, yet he insisted they had to be played as pistols.

Definitely wont play the guy again. I play for enjoyment, 40k ain't worth getting all tensed and angry over in order to secure a win.

btw Eldarain that file in the link is great!

To be honest I'm on his side with the bolter sergeants; if you want an in game advantage that much have the right models for it.

That small point aside, I think you've made the right decision as it doesn't sound like this guy is someone you will enjoy playing with.

IMHO, Proxied weapons is fine as long as you agree them with your opponent before hand and they're fairly obvious.

As for the power roll, if he didn't do it in front of you, it didn't happen. Seems fairly simple.

I did show him my list printout from battlescribe, no bolt pistols in there anywhere - cost is the same. I have not had someone complain about that before. Seems nit picky to me.

I dunno, I guess shoulda dug my heels in with the power roll, but it kinda caught me off guard.

Very bad sportsmanship. I've experienced similar in the past with a friend rolling for Blood Angels 'Red Thirst' - just starts rolling numerous dice and when it lands, deciding the squad it's on... I would argue you need to name the squad BEFORE you roll.

It sounds petty, but like you say these rules are game changers. Let them know you want to witness all rolls!

nareik wrote:
To be honest I'm on his side with the bolter sergeants; if you want an in game advantage that much have the right models for it.

That small point aside, I think you've made the right decision as it doesn't sound like this guy is someone you will enjoy playing with.

Ehhhh sorry man I don't consider it wanting an "in game advantage" that much, Imperial Fists Tacticals are hardly a close combat unit. One of their strengths is mid range bolter fire which kinda rules out pistols.

Sometimes I buy the storm bolter upgrade for my sgts which with IF actually works quite well en masse. Am I supposed to change all my sgt models to storm bolters every time I wanna do that?

Like I said I have never had anyone moan about it before. Unless its a serious tournament I can't see the issue.

I can't see the issue in using a model with a bolt pistol as having a bolt pistol because that's what he has, but it is a really minor thing and I wouldn't even mention it in a game. I only mentioned it because you bought it up, not because I really think your gamey because of it.

If I had an IF army and wanted to mix up my sergeants equipment I'd just make some spare sergeants with the alternate builds I like as making models is a big part of the hobby for me.

I guess it is just a small difference between us .

 scommy wrote:

Also a couple of my sgt models have pistols, but being IF I normally run them as bolters, yet he insisted they had to be played as pistols.

Some people get really cranky about any proxies on the table. For me it is a matter of scale. 2 Sergeant models with bolt pistols, but run as bolters instead is hardly going to unbalance anything in my mind. Now if you had 8 such figures and started to explain how those 2 had bolters, those two combi-meltas, these two combi-grav, etc then I would get cranky because those weapon options can make a big difference and when playing the game I don't have time to keep track of which are which. Worst case for me was a game that ultimately didn't happen when some kid dumped an entire carrier of tactical marine minis with bolters and then started to explain how this set of identical minis were a devastator squad (where 4 of the 5 had heavy weapons, and each had a different heavy weapon), and this one was an assault squad (with one having a plasma pistol, another a flamer, and still others with unique weapon combos) and how this was a tactical squad (but this model had a flamer and that a missile launcher). I stopped him 4 units in and said No thanks. Such excessive proxies are unfair to one's opponent in the extreme.

Can't understand, though, why 2 sergeants with bolt pistols having bolters instead would be such a complaint point, though.

hehe yes I totally agree its a matter of scale, 8 figure all proxied to different things would seriously mess up my karma too.

Speaking of karma I think this guy was just bad karma thru and thru with some serious control freak issues.

He even moaned about how I was doing my bolter drill rerolls, said I should not reroll the 1's first, then discard all misses, instead he said I should pick out all the hits, put them aside, then pick out the 2's, then reroll the 1's remove those misses then put all hits together lolwtf!!??!

He also kept repeating solemnly "Don't get stuck in a land war in Asia" not sure what the significance of that was.

Wow! that dude sounds like a complete ass-hat.

Having the seargents identifiable is actually really useful becuase the 'sarge will have a better leadership skill - when exactly he goes down can matter.

 scommy wrote:
Sometimes I buy the storm bolter upgrade for my sgts which with IF actually works quite well en masse. Am I supposed to change all my sgt models to storm bolters every time I wanna do that? .

Honestly? Yes, of course you're supposed to use the correct models to represent what you're putting on the table.

WYSIWYG is just common courtesy. It's unfair to expect your opponents to remember which weapons are supposed to be as modelled, and which are actually something else.

It's ok for a one-off, to try something out before you get the models for it (provided your opponent agrees to it) but if you're doing it as a regular thing, get the right models to use when you need them.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Wow! that dude sounds like a complete ass-hat.

Having the seargents identifiable is actually really useful because the 'sarge will have a better leadership skill - when exactly he goes down can matter.

heehee yep agreed fully with what you say^^

All my sgts are fully identifiable (no helmets, hands pointing out, heroic postures etc, just the two guys that caused the problem are AOBR sgts, lovely models but they don't have a bolter, just a holster for a pistol and the chainsword.

Excuse the (ahem) photo quality

 scommy wrote:
He also kept repeating solemnly "Don't get stuck in a land war in Asia" not sure what the significance of that was.

He was quoting Wallace Shawn, America's greatest living playwright.

See the film 'The Princess Bride' for context.

 insaniak wrote:

 scommy wrote:
Sometimes I buy the storm bolter upgrade for my sgts which with IF actually works quite well en masse. Am I supposed to change all my sgt models to storm bolters every time I wanna do that? .

Honestly? Yes, of course you're supposed to use the correct models to represent what you're putting on the table.

WYSIWYG is just common courtesy. It's unfair to expect your opponents to remember which weapons are supposed to be as modelled, and which are actually something else.

It's ok for a one-off, to try something out before you get the models for it (provided your opponent agrees to it) but if you're doing it as a regular thing, get the right models to use when you need them.

Maybe this is because everyone I play with is low income, or because I play Eldar/Harlequins so everything is pretty much WYSIWYG anyhow. But I've never had this problem, or had a problem with people proxying. Even extensively. As long as I can point at a mini and you can consistently tell me what it is, and what it has I'm good. I just dont see what the big deal is, and I certainly dont feel like Im at a disadvantage.

 insaniak wrote:

 scommy wrote:
Sometimes I buy the storm bolter upgrade for my sgts which with IF actually works quite well en masse. Am I supposed to change all my sgt models to storm bolters every time I wanna do that? .

Honestly? Yes, of course you're supposed to use the correct models to represent what you're putting on the table.

WYSIWYG is just common courtesy. It's unfair to expect your opponents to remember which weapons are supposed to be as modelled, and which are actually something else.

It's ok for a one-off, to try something out before you get the models for it (provided your opponent agrees to it) but if you're doing it as a regular thing, get the right models to use when you need them.

My apologies but I don't think two sgts with their hands pointing out saturday night fever style where bolters should be, in a 1500 point army with no other proxies is a big deal. I honestly don't.

I have had people proxy all sorts eg:guardsmen to be pink horrors - I did not think twice, found it amusing actually. Certainly never got annoyed about it. Plus they did not have to ask pretty please my agreement to do it (and I would not want that either), they just showed me what the proxies were - no big deal.

How about metal models? I have around 1200 in valhallans, are all the sgts required to run pistols in game by your logic? If I wanna run the sgts as bolters do I have to cut the pistol off and super glue a plastic bolter on??

 scommy wrote:
My apologies but I don't think two sgts with their hands pointing out saturday night fever style where bolters should be, in a 1500 point army with no other proxies is a big deal. I honestly don't.

I never said it was a big deal. I said it was common courtesy, because it saves your opponent from having to remember what everybody in your army is supposed to be carrying.

How about metal models? I have around 1200 in valhallans, are all the sgts required to run pistols in game by your logic? If I wanna run the sgts as bolters do I have to cut the pistol off and super glue a plastic bolter on??

'Have to'? No, of course not. They're your models, do what you want with them.

Should you, though? Absolutely.

In games with only a few models per side, it's less of an issue, because there's not as much to keep track of. But in a game the size of 40K, where so much of your army can potentially be carrying a fairly wide array of different gear that has very different in-game effects, making it as easy as possible for your opponent to remember what is what is going to make for a much easier game.

That's not to say that everyone cares about it. As you have apparently encountered, a lot of players couldn't care less so long as you are happy to remind them when they ask. But the WYSIWYG convention exists because a lot of players do prefer to have armies representative of what they are supposed to be, simply because it lets them concentrate on playing the game rather than having to memorise your army list.

The whole point of having miniatures is for them to be representations of the units on the table.

"Should you, though? Absolutely." Cutting metal miniatures up, gee great idea - I am done with this "discussion".

You can do what you want with your models too.

 scommy wrote:
Cutting metal miniatures up, gee great idea -.

It's generally not actually that difficult to saw off a pistol hand and replace it with something else.

Sign of the times, I guess... When I started, most players just took it for granted that this was part of the hobby, and since most of the models were metal, you just learnt how to deal with it.

In a hobby as expensive as this one, I do not mind people saving themselves money by not having a model for every load-out at the ready.

I am content with having the right model and if special weapons are involved, I'd like at least something to indicate which model is carrying it.

I would never tell people they should buy €140 worth of Havocs in order to play a single squad of them just because GW only bothered to include one of each heavy weapon. In fact I would motivate people to do the exact opposite and only buy one box of them and proxy whatever you want because honestly it's kind of bloody bullgak that GW does not provide enough options for their own models for the prices they're selling at.

 insaniak wrote:

 scommy wrote:
Cutting metal miniatures up, gee great idea -.

It's generally not actually that difficult to saw off a pistol hand and replace it with something else.

Sign of the times, I guess... When I started, most players just took it for granted that this was part of the hobby, and since most of the models were metal, you just learnt how to deal with it.

Ah yes, the good old days of the hobby I remember when converting a model to have a different weapon or such required a small hacksaw, superglue and usually a pinvice and brass rod. These younger ones now with their easy to cut plastic kits and strong as feth plastic glue dont know what they missed Thanks for reminding me of those memories insiak

Take a small chain, glue the first and last link on a plastic bolter, make the cahin long enough that you can pass it around the Sarg shoulder and neck.

Put it on when you want to play bolters, take it off when you don't, voila, it will take 5 mins, and you don't have to modify the model itself.

Just like i did for my Chosen( well they come with Pistols & bolters, but the thing is the same)

 insaniak wrote:

In games with only a few models per side, it's less of an issue, because there's not as much to keep track of. But in a game the size of 40K, where so much of your army can potentially be carrying a fairly wide array of different gear that has very different in-game effects, making it as easy as possible for your opponent to remember what is what is going to make for a much easier game.

That's not to say that everyone cares about it. As you have apparently encountered, a lot of players couldn't care less so long as you are happy to remind them when they ask. But the WYSIWYG convention exists because a lot of players do prefer to have armies representative of what they are supposed to be, simply because it lets them concentrate on playing the game rather than having to memorise your army list.

The whole point of having miniatures is for them to be representations of the units on the table.

Just think you are beating the horse to death here, mate. We are not talking about the whole army, but 2 models with bolters that did not obviously have bolters. This is not the same as a unit of devastators where all the models have heavy bolters, but really have plasma cannon. THAT can make a significant impact if an opponent forgets that they are armed differently. In this case it is a no brainer and is not a horrible breech of the WYSIWYG convention. I am hardcore on the WYSIWYG front when playing and this wouldn't even be a blip on my radar, nor would I even really bother to keep track of it the impact would be so insignificant in the game at large. I recently played a game DA + Black Templars vs. Orks + Necrons. My partner with Black Templars has only one set of minis, but instead of cutting back his numbers to get in the gear they were equipped with about 80% of his models were not as they appeared. I read him the riot act and he was on my side. Meanwhile the two opponents didn't care in the least. You are making a really big deal out of nothing in this case.

Some people are knit picky

some people just want to be a jerk

Be clear and concise if you are going to do anything.

Make sure you see important things. ESPECIALLY rolls like psychic powers.

If you are running proxies make sure you announce it and not just show a list to him and expect him to read every detail.

A lot of TFG and TFG like issues can be dealt with just by good communication and making sure everyone is on the same page.


(edit: Also immediately call out people that "invisible" roll behind buildings and stuff. that kinda behavior needs to be smacked up side the head. if he complains there is no room bring out the dice tower or a separate tray or box top to roll dice in on the side.)