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2020/01/28 02:47:37
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Go to about 1:50 in the video and it shows up, it looks pretty sweet from what I can see although it is just a Facebook video unfortunately. If there are better pictures I'd love to see them.
Thanks!
From the video, it seems like many people had heard of/knew about this army before. Does Chris Fisher frequent the tournament scene/does he have a website or podcast? Or was he just appreciated/highlighted because of such a unique list? Does anyone know?
God is real!
2020/01/28 04:24:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
2020/01/28 05:22:53
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/28 10:35:30
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
So much space on these boards
I don't think I've ever had enough room to charge something with four buggies.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/28 13:07:00
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
These numbers seem really high to me... Just iterating the expectations gives a little over 6 wounds on average for Deathskulls vs T8 with no invul. You're only averaging three hits even with Deathskulls reroll. How'd you arrive at these numbers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/28 13:07:35
Blood rains down from an angry sky, my WAAAGH! rages on, my WAAAGH! rages on!
2020/01/28 13:20:28
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/28 13:50:55
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Sorry mate, if this is just one turn then I think you need to check your implementation, these numbers are way too high. Both for average damage and chance to one shot. How are you running your code?
Blood rains down from an angry sky, my WAAAGH! rages on, my WAAAGH! rages on!
2020/01/28 14:32:52
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
tneva82 wrote: Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/28 16:38:45
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
Strictly speaking, using a simulation of random events from a system can be concluded when the output of repeated simulations begins to stabalise. This can be very many magnitudes of simulation runs lower than actual testable scenarios, but still representative of a full test. There is alot more about this under discrete-event simulation, I've been delving recently into it at work, its quite fascinating.
2020/01/28 17:34:36
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Because defense is for the weak?! Because his massive balls would protect him from any turn 1 shenanigans?!
Truly a hero. 3-3 as well. What a champ.
Well adding 1-2 Wazboms would be very fitting for the list, considering how insanely fast they go. Makes you wonder if he would have been less susceptible to not getting first turn if he had.
2020/01/28 19:01:09
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
So, this didn't sound right. I ran my own version of this, also 10000 observations. Includes Deffskullz rerolls on 1 miss, 1 wound, and 1 damage roll of 1 or 2 if there was one. Includes mortal wounds on Str of 11 or 12, and I assumed a T8 target with no armor save.
EDIT: Flubbed some code on the mortal wounds, so I gave it another shot, this time with 1 million. Original 10k results with error behind the spoiler for transparency: EDIT2: Ugh, and now I'm rolling d6 damage for each mortal wound. That's not right either. Math is hard. I'll fix it later.
Average damage = 9.02 (raw values, so that one time I got 177(?!) damage is included)
Chance to 1-shot a baneblade = 7.45%
tneva82 wrote: Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
This isn't right either, sixty million possibilities is a trivial number from a simulation perspective for one thing and 10,000 runs should be more than enough to get a reasonable average if the implementation is correct.
You can get a decent back of the napkin expectation just doing (avg number of shots)x(probability to hit)x(probability to wound given average strength)x(average damage roll) if all you want is to know the expected damage output.
If you really want to simulate it I wouldn't bother doing monte carlo, just evaluate all the outcomes. It's probably easier to evaluate the probabilities though. Even a simulation with millions of points won't take a week...more than a second or two is probably a sign your computer is running slow.
Blood rains down from an angry sky, my WAAAGH! rages on, my WAAAGH! rages on!
2020/01/28 19:57:21
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
So much space on these boards
I don't think I've ever had enough room to charge something with four buggies.
Twenty buggies looks amazing. I've only got nine but this inspires me to get more of them and take them tourneys (with a SSAG and Wazbom-blastajet for support). Don't see tables this open often though. Which explains why he scored 3 wins. With terrain clogged tables a buggylist is almost unplayable.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 00:13:04
DieHard 40K player. Primary Army: Goff/Deffskull Orks 18,000+ pts (And Growing Still, slowly)
Secondary army: Mentor Legion Space Marines, 4000 or so (heading for about 7-8000)
Tertiary army: Tau , eh bout 1750 or so, (someday 2-3000)
2020/01/29 01:03:10
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Probably had them commissioned.
God is real!
2020/01/29 07:06:32
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Any proof of that, or are we just throwing around baseless accusations?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/29 07:07:28
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/29 07:18:12
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
His hobby, his rules. If he wants 6 identical Megatrakk Scrapjets power to him.
2020/01/29 09:08:13
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
Putting money where mouth is. Donor vehicles come painted from t'bay, method differed in production (cab area moved to rear to mount engine), still to find the rear rotor (grrr).
2020/01/29 12:14:26
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Now that’s what I’m talking about. You are a real ork Moriarty
DieHard 40K player. Primary Army: Goff/Deffskull Orks 18,000+ pts (And Growing Still, slowly)
Secondary army: Mentor Legion Space Marines, 4000 or so (heading for about 7-8000)
Tertiary army: Tau , eh bout 1750 or so, (someday 2-3000)
2020/01/29 17:02:36
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
That’s so sick! Great job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 17:14:21
2020/01/29 19:28:56
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Any proof of that, or are we just throwing around baseless accusations?
I do add variety to nearly every model I have within reason. All my boys I bought third party weapon arms from spell crow and used bits box for different heads and arms including some old gorka morka weapon arms. I bought the forgeworld kommando upgrade kit. Switched driver side of trukks plus the enclosed cab and the half trakk trukk version. Instead of the same weirdboy I used the shaman from AoS. Mekguns and dreads which are heavily magnetized so I can switch between weapon options and the guns all I could do is add ork swag bits or glue a different gunner onto the side podium and maybe slight painting changes. Deff dreads have different face plates. Battlewagon is heavily magnetized and isn’t painted yet.... mega armor boyz and stormboys have a ton of bits and combos to differentiate them apart within reason. I got to 20 stormboys before I ran out of combos. Bikes I used the forgeworld nobs biker upgrade plus different weapon arms. For specialist troops like burnas and lootas you run into lack of combination issues after 15 models. So I stopped there. Kromlech has an awesome painboy alt I used for bits. I heavily magnetized my planes to be either dakka burna or blitsa bombers. I need to pick up a new wazbom version and see how many versions I can magnetize it into. I guess my point is unlike dkok my other army orks have a lot of option for variety to a degree. I just picked up 3 buggies from a store clearance closing so I don’t have the experience with the kits yet but you can do a lot of variety. Doubtfully as many as this guy had made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 19:48:04
2020/01/29 19:56:39
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I'd probably just straight up mimic Jeff Poole's Ork list. The only thing Id say is that this looks exactly like the previous lists Orks fielded before marines showed up, swapping Lootas for Gits.
I think you should drop the gits (as much as I like Flash Gitz) add another unit of Boys and Mad Dok, if you wanna go all in on the style they seemed to be piloting. Jeff had 4 units of boys and just maxed out the Tankbustas with bomb squigs.
At the very least, take 4th unit of boys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/29 19:58:08
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy 
Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones 
(And Growing Still, slowly)
4000 or so (heading for about 7-8000)
, eh bout 1750 or so, (someday 2-3000) 
