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Firstly, I wasn't sure if this is the right area to post this, so if it isn't, please feel free to move it, mods!

Slightly different to most of the topics I've seen here. My brothers and I recently got back into Warhammer after around 7/8 years. We never really played, but collected the models we liked from armies whose fluff we found interesting. Because of this, I wound up with Eldar, one wound up with Space Marines, and the other ended up with Chaos Space Marines. Now, what with Gladius and Skyhammer, I can have a good game with the SM player. However, my general armies are just a bit too tough for the CSM one to deal with. Also worth noting is that our meta has no fliers in at all, so he doesn't even use the Helldrake (it is just a bit too expensive for him to get one), and as our finances are kind of limited, we allow each other to proxy things such as weapon upgrades, sergeants and units (although we try not to).

His army is generally squads of CSM in Rhinos with Plasma, Abaddon with some Termies to deep strike, a Defiler, some Thousand Sons, Khorne Beserkers in a LR, a Predator, maybe a Sorcerer and Ahriman. He has a fair few Bikers and Havocs as well. He has the entire Dark Vengeance box set, and I'm willing to let him proxy anything he wants. So all in all, not a massively competitive army, but fitting with the fluff which he absolutely adores.

As my army has a Biel-Tan colour scheme, I'd ideally like to play with the Aspect Warriors as much as possible, however I know they can be slightly ridiculous.

Also, I don't want him to think I'm just completely handicapping myself to let him win, and he knows about all the bonuses from the formations, so if I were to include some Aspect Warriors without the formation, he would question it, so I don't want to do anything like that.

The options I have available are as follows:

HQ:
Every named character bar Jain Zar + Baharroth
3 Farseers
6 Warlocks (If I wanted a Spiritseer I'd proxy one)
1 Autarch

Troops:
Around 40 Guardian Defenders and 6 Weapons Platforms (3 BL, 3 SL)
9 Rangers
25 Dire Avengers
8 Windriders (2 with Canons, the rest Catapults)

Elites:
10 Fire Dragons
10 Striking Scorpions
7 Howling Banshees
15 Wraithguard (willing to proxy as Wraithblades)

Fast Attack:
10 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
2 Vypers
4 Shining Spears

Heavy Support:
7 Falcon-Chassis (Most are modelled as WS or Falcons, but again we will use them as anything with the chassis)
9 Dark Reapers
2 War Walkers
2 Wraithlords
3 Vaul's Support Batteries

Lords of War:
2 Avatars
1 Wraithknight


Dark Eldar Allies:
2 Archons
20 Kabalites
2 Raiders


Now, I was thinking about trying to invest as many points as possible in the Guardian Defender Battlehost. Maybe take something like Illic + Rangers. Have a CC Aspect Host with my Scorpions, Spears and Banshees. Maybe with Wraithblades and Banshees in the Raiders?
I'd quite like to use the Avatar as well - Not only is it one of my favourite models but my brother loves Deep Striking Abaddon + Termies into my backfield and getting him to challenge something strong. I think that would be a good clash!

So, without obviously shooting myself in the foot, what kind of army would you suggest I use to make it a more level playing field, with one of the strongest codices vs the weakest?
Any suggestions, be they suggesting units for either of us, or creating a full blown list, would be absolutely amazing, as we are both relative newbies to actually playing the game!

It's good that you aren't trying to be a cheesemonger; Eldar have a bad reputation for that.

You were right to identify the Guardian Battlehost as a proper starting point for the Eldar army you're looking for. A melee Aspect Host with an Avatar or Jain Zar as support is a solid addition. I'd take two units of five Striking Scorpions (both with Scorpion's Claw Exarch) and infiltrate them in.Always take Jain Zar if you're taking Banshees, as her warlord trait is absolutely worth it. The Avatar could go in a CAD, along with Illic with Rangers and Wraithblades.

You will want extra Warlocks for the Farseer in the Battlehost to join. Guardians should have either Starcannons or Bright Lances. At least one Guardian squad should have a Wave Serpent for mobility as you won't be taking them for other units. Wave Serpents should have TL scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-fields. Vypers should be kept relatively cheap; if you must upgrade, go for extra cannons, Scatter Lasers, and Holo-fields. Seventy-five points apiece, and they can do work if you get them in the right place. Since you don't have to worry much about AA, give your War Walkers dual Bright Lances for hunting vehicles. Avoid the D-cannons fro the Vaul's Wrath, and give them Shadow Weavers instead. Rangers are cheap and should stay that way; do not upgrade them if you take Illic.

In terms of general tactics, you'll want to infiltrate the Striking Scorpions to the flanks to take out vulnerable units and act as a distraction. Believe it or not, Jain Zar and Banshees are better on foot in a Warhost; they run nine inches a turn through cover straight at what you want to kill. Vypers, War Walkers, and the Vaul's Wrath will provide long-range fire support, with the Wave Serpent moving to capture midfield objectives. The Farseer and Warlocks sit back to buff the fire support or advance into the midfield to provide support for advancing Guardians. If you have an Avatar, put him in back to support your Guardians by making them Fearless, or advance him up if he has Wraithblade bodyguards. Illic and the Rangers infiltrate onto an objective ans stay put, with illic causing havoc with his rifle.

I like the idea of this list, as it relies more on the Eldar special characters and mobility rather than spamming the most OP things in the codex. I definitely think it could work for the kind of army you're looking for. It isn't so strong that it would table your brothers, but strong enough to give them a challenge without being unbeatable.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
It's good that you aren't trying to be a cheesemonger; Eldar have a bad reputation for that.

You were right to identify the Guardian Battlehost as a proper starting point for the Eldar army you're looking for. A melee Aspect Host with an Avatar or Jain Zar as support is a solid addition. I'd take two units of five Striking Scorpions (both with Scorpion's Claw Exarch) and infiltrate them in.Always take Jain Zar if you're taking Banshees, as her warlord trait is absolutely worth it. The Avatar could go in a CAD, along with Illic with Rangers and Wraithblades.

You will want extra Warlocks for the Farseer in the Battlehost to join. Guardians should have either Starcannons or Bright Lances. At least one Guardian squad should have a Wave Serpent for mobility as you won't be taking them for other units. Wave Serpents should have TL scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-fields. Vypers should be kept relatively cheap; if you must upgrade, go for extra cannons, Scatter Lasers, and Holo-fields. Seventy-five points apiece, and they can do work if you get them in the right place. Since you don't have to worry much about AA, give your War Walkers dual Bright Lances for hunting vehicles. Avoid the D-cannons fro the Vaul's Wrath, and give them Shadow Weavers instead. Rangers are cheap and should stay that way; do not upgrade them if you take Illic.

In terms of general tactics, you'll want to infiltrate the Striking Scorpions to the flanks to take out vulnerable units and act as a distraction. Believe it or not, Jain Zar and Banshees are better on foot in a Warhost; they run nine inches a turn through cover straight at what you want to kill. Vypers, War Walkers, and the Vaul's Wrath will provide long-range fire support, with the Wave Serpent moving to capture midfield objectives. The Farseer and Warlocks sit back to buff the fire support or advance into the midfield to provide support for advancing Guardians. If you have an Avatar, put him in back to support your Guardians by making them Fearless, or advance him up if he has Wraithblade bodyguards. Illic and the Rangers infiltrate onto an objective ans stay put, with illic causing havoc with his rifle.

I like the idea of this list, as it relies more on the Eldar special characters and mobility rather than spamming the most OP things in the codex. I definitely think it could work for the kind of army you're looking for. It isn't so strong that it would table your brothers, but strong enough to give them a challenge without being unbeatable.

Thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for! I don't see the point in bringing a load of cheese in a casual game. I'll happily try out something powerful if my opponent can bring something tough to fight it (like if the SM brother decides to use Skyhammer all the time), but it just sucks the fun out of it having won the battle before a die is rolled.

I've used the Guardian Battlehost a few times now, and its been pretty fun. I think I'd try and include the Avatar in that, just to have the option of getting him right in the face of the enemy if I so wish. Unfortunately Jain Zar is one of the few characters I don't have (yet)! Though I think an Avatar plus Illic is a pretty huge amount of points spent on two models.

I agree that a CAD is the best way to get a some Wraithblades in there, I'd probably go for Illic, Rangers and a squad of Dire Avengers in a Serpent (I'd like some ObSec as we tend to at least have a couple of objectives!)

Those loadouts for the War Walkers sound pretty ideal, although I don't expect them to last very long!

Do you think an Aspect Host with 4 Dark Reapers, 6 Swooping Hawks and 5 Warp Spiders would be too much to deal with on top of that? I just absolutely love the models and want to use them as much as I can!

Also, I forgot to mention in the previous post - As we've agreed the Wraithknight is just too tough for them to deal with, I can run the Wraith Host without it as a separate formation or as part of the Guardian Battlehost, just without it getting Battle Focus.

Do you think this kind of list could prove a good challenge for him?

Guardian Battlehost: (~850 pts)
Farseer
Guardians x 10 with Starcannon + Warlock Leader w/ Singing Spear (x 3)
Vyper x 2 with extra Shuriken Cannon
War Walkers x 2 with Bright Lances
Vaul's Support - 3 x Shadow Weaver

Wraith Host: (~660pts)
Spiritseer
Wraithblades x 5 w/ Axe + Shield (x 3)
Wraithlord w/ Ghostglaive, Flamers + Bright Lance

Aspect Host +1 WS (~350 pts)
5 x Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ SC (x 2)
Howling Bansheers x 7

Avatar (195 pts)

Rangers (60 pts)

Illic (140 pts)

It comes out to around 2250 pts. Either that or I could just have the one unit of Wraithblades in a CAD, opening up about 400 pts.

Slightly worried about the amount of anti-tank I've got available there though! I'm tempted to maybe put a unit of Swooping Hawks in that CAD if I took out the Wraith Host formation.

I really appreciate your input by the way, hopefully I'll formulate a couple of lists properly once I've got the time, it would be fantastic if you could give me a second opinion.

Have you considered letting him any of the CSM formations from Apoc?

Might be interesting.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Have you considered letting him any of the CSM formations from Apoc?

Might be interesting.

I'm perfectly willing to let him use whatever he wants! Are any of the formations any good? I have no idea about any of them!

NG77 wrote:
Thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for! I don't see the point in bringing a load of cheese in a casual game. I'll happily try out something powerful if my opponent can bring something tough to fight it (like if the SM brother decides to use Skyhammer all the time), but it just sucks the fun out of it having won the battle before a die is rolled.

I've used the Guardian Battlehost a few times now, and its been pretty fun. I think I'd try and include the Avatar in that, just to have the option of getting him right in the face of the enemy if I so wish. Unfortunately Jain Zar is one of the few characters I don't have (yet)! Though I think an Avatar plus Illic is a pretty huge amount of points spent on two models.

I agree that a CAD is the best way to get a some Wraithblades in there, I'd probably go for Illic, Rangers and a squad of Dire Avengers in a Serpent (I'd like some ObSec as we tend to at least have a couple of objectives!)

Those loadouts for the War Walkers sound pretty ideal, although I don't expect them to last very long!

Do you think an Aspect Host with 4 Dark Reapers, 6 Swooping Hawks and 5 Warp Spiders would be too much to deal with on top of that? I just absolutely love the models and want to use them as much as I can!

Also, I forgot to mention in the previous post - As we've agreed the Wraithknight is just too tough for them to deal with, I can run the Wraith Host without it as a separate formation or as part of the Guardian Battlehost, just without it getting Battle Focus.

Do you think this kind of list could prove a good challenge for him?

Guardian Battlehost: (~850 pts)
Farseer
Guardians x 10 with Starcannon + Warlock Leader w/ Singing Spear (x 3)
Vyper x 2 with extra Shuriken Cannon
War Walkers x 2 with Bright Lances
Vaul's Support - 3 x Shadow Weaver

Wraith Host: (~660pts)
Spiritseer
Wraithblades x 5 w/ Axe + Shield (x 3)
Wraithlord w/ Ghostglaive, Flamers + Bright Lance

Aspect Host +1 WS (~350 pts)
5 x Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch w/ SC (x 2)
Howling Bansheers x 7

Avatar (195 pts)

Rangers (60 pts)

Illic (140 pts)

It comes out to around 2250 pts. Either that or I could just have the one unit of Wraithblades in a CAD, opening up about 400 pts.

Slightly worried about the amount of anti-tank I've got available there though! I'm tempted to maybe put a unit of Swooping Hawks in that CAD if I took out the Wraith Host formation.

I really appreciate your input by the way, hopefully I'll formulate a couple of lists properly once I've got the time, it would be fantastic if you could give me a second opinion.

Shooty Aspect Hosts can be very hard to deal with. they aren't overpowered, but they are quite nasty, and your CSM-playing brother might really struggle against them if he keeps on using the units he wants.

Wraithhost without the Wraithknight sounds like a good idea, but you would be better off putting the Wraithblades in the CAD. The loadout on the Wraithlord looks solid if you want to use it.

The Avatar should be taken in a Warhost for the automatic six-inch run move. Stick Illic, the Rangers, and the Wraithblades in a CAD. I suggest a small jetbike squad as the second mandatory troops coice for the CAD.

If you're concerned about your amount of anti-tank, give the Guardians Bright Lances for their weapons platforms. The Warlock leaders for the squads aren't worth it; you're better off using them as a Warlock Conclave and attaching them with the Farseer to act as Warp Charge batteries.

Tweak the list you posted around a bit, and it should be good to go for games against your brothers. Hope this helps!

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Shooty Aspect Hosts can be very hard to deal with. they aren't overpowered, but they are quite nasty, and your CSM-playing brother might really struggle against them if he keeps on using the units he wants.

Wraithhost without the Wraithknight sounds like a good idea, but you would be better off putting the Wraithblades in the CAD. The loadout on the Wraithlord looks solid if you want to use it.

The Avatar should be taken in a Warhost for the automatic six-inch run move. Stick Illic, the Rangers, and the Wraithblades in a CAD. I suggest a small jetbike squad as the second mandatory troops coice for the CAD.

If you're concerned about your amount of anti-tank, give the Guardians Bright Lances for their weapons platforms. The Warlock leaders for the squads aren't worth it; you're better off using them as a Warlock Conclave and attaching them with the Farseer to act as Warp Charge batteries.

Tweak the list you posted around a bit, and it should be good to go for games against your brothers. Hope this helps!

I'd probably try and run a MSU approach with the shooty ones if I did use them, just because I love the models and would like to include them if possible! But I will try without and see what the result is!

Why are the Wraithblades better in the CAD? Giving them a 6" run means they are very likely to make it into CC by the 2nd turn surely? Is it just a bit unnecessary to have 3 units?

My only issue with having the BL with the Guardians is that they have a completely different set of targets. At least a Starcannon puts out 2 shots that can wreck TEQ days. Would they be better in the Vyper squadron?

Thank you for the help!

NG77 wrote:
I'd probably try and run a MSU approach with the shooty ones if I did use them, just because I love the models and would like to include them if possible! But I will try without and see what the result is!

Why are the Wraithblades better in the CAD? Giving them a 6" run means they are very likely to make it into CC by the 2nd turn surely? Is it just a bit unnecessary to have 3 units?

My only issue with having the BL with the Guardians is that they have a completely different set of targets. At least a Starcannon puts out 2 shots that can wreck TEQ days. Would they be better in the Vyper squadron?

Thank you for the help!

With shooty Aspect Hosts, it's not the number of models but the amount of accurate firepower that can be problematic. Even MSU Aspect Hosts can give armies much stronger than CSM a serious run for their money.

To fit into the Warhost to gain the six inch run and Battle Focus, Wraithblades must be taken as part of a Wraithhost, which is better as a stand-alone force due to its cost.

You could drop the Bright Lances from the Guardian Squads, but there aren't a lot more places where you can make up for it in terms of anti-tank. You need at least two decent sources, and just the War Walkers aren't going to cut it; they'll get focused down as a priority target. Vypers are fragile eough that they will spend plenty of time Jinking, which will render any Brigh tLances they take mostly ineffective. Stick with Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers for volume of fire.

Keep in mind that your brother is already running a pretty weak CSM list; you don't want to give him something he can't begin to deal with. Hope this helps.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

With shooty Aspect Hosts, it's not the number of models but the amount of accurate firepower that can be problematic. Even MSU Aspect Hosts can give armies much stronger than CSM a serious run for their money.

To fit into the Warhost to gain the six inch run and Battle Focus, Wraithblades must be taken as part of a Wraithhost, which is better as a stand-alone force due to its cost.

You could drop the Bright Lances from the Guardian Squads, but there aren't a lot more places where you can make up for it in terms of anti-tank. You need at least two decent sources, and just the War Walkers aren't going to cut it; they'll get focused down as a priority target. Vypers are fragile eough that they will spend plenty of time Jinking, which will render any Brigh tLances they take mostly ineffective. Stick with Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers for volume of fire.

Keep in mind that your brother is already running a pretty weak CSM list; you don't want to give him something he can't begin to deal with. Hope this helps.

Yeah this is true. I'll see how the melee army copes before I introduce any shooty Aspect Hosts then!

True, but if I'm taking a guardian battlehost already, and I want a Wraithlord and Wraithblades too, surely the only extra cost is a spiritseer as we agreed the Wraithknight wasn't part of the formation? If I just wanted a unit of Wraithblades I would put them in a CAD, but the points tax is pretty similar either way if I want the three units!

True, I guess I could have one squad of Guardians with two bright Lances in, and another two squads of 10 with a Starcannon just to advance up the field a little.

I do also have the Avatar and Wraithlord for anti tank too, and the cannon or Scatter Lasers can take out rhinos quite comfortably! Thanks for your help!

The best solution would be to houserule stuff. Buff csm, make what models he has playable, nerf eldar - get what overpowered think you think you have back in line. That'd feel much better than listbuilding handicaps. He probably knows allready what his army lacks. The game can really be smooth if you're not afraid to write your own rules.

 koooaei wrote:
The best solution would be to houserule stuff. Buff csm, make what models he has playable, nerf eldar - get what overpowered think you think you have back in line. That'd feel much better than listbuilding handicaps. He probably knows allready what his army lacks. The game can really be smooth if you're not afraid to write your own rules.

What buffs would you suggest?
I've said that for the next game he can take free marks on all his units, and that he doesn't have to use the force org chart but can still get ObSec on troops

He doesn't really know how to improve his army other than make it cheaper!

$10 says even with all these restrictions, you still break him in 4 turns or less.

As to how to make his army less bad, well, stop taking bad units - Prime examples are the Defiler and Thousand Sons.

Tell him to use Mark of Nurgle Obliterators, a Heldrake with a Baleflamer, perhaps some Spawn or bikers escorting a juggerlord. Abbadon should be going in the Raider with the Berserkers or terminators if he really must be taken, since not only do you have to stand around like a chump when you deepstrike, chaos has a total lack of scatter mitigation or reserve manipulation, so you risk not coming in until turn 4, mishaping when you do come in and scattering off into nowhere and spending 3 turns footslogging and getting shot.

 Drasius wrote:
$10 says even with all these restrictions, you still break him in 4 turns or less.

As to how to make his army less bad, well, stop taking bad units - Prime examples are the Defiler and Thousand Sons.

Tell him to use Mark of Nurgle Obliterators, a Heldrake with a Baleflamer, perhaps some Spawn or bikers escorting a juggerlord. Abbadon should be going in the Raider with the Berserkers or terminators if he really must be taken, since not only do you have to stand around like a chump when you deepstrike, chaos has a total lack of scatter mitigation or reserve manipulation, so you risk not coming in until turn 4, mishaping when you do come in and scattering off into nowhere and spending 3 turns footslogging and getting shot.

I'll probably beat him yes, but that's partly because he hasn't quite got the hang of his tactics yet. I know they're not optimal units, but they've honestly done far more damage than pretty much anything else he has!

He does want obliterators, but he can't afford them yet, same with a helldrake and a juggerlord. I didn't think about running him with Berserkers actually, I'll suggest that to him!

Out of the options available to him, what would you say the best units are?

NG77 wrote:
Firstly, I wasn't sure if this is the right area to post this, so if it isn't, please feel free to move it, mods!

Slightly different to most of the topics I've seen here. My brothers and I recently got back into Warhammer after around 7/8 years. We never really played, but collected the models we liked from armies whose fluff we found interesting. Because of this, I wound up with Eldar, one wound up with Space Marines, and the other ended up with Chaos Space Marines. Now, what with Gladius and Skyhammer, I can have a good game with the SM player. However, my general armies are just a bit too tough for the CSM one to deal with. Also worth noting is that our meta has no fliers in at all, so he doesn't even use the Helldrake (it is just a bit too expensive for him to get one), and as our finances are kind of limited, we allow each other to proxy things such as weapon upgrades, sergeants and units (although we try not to).

His army is generally squads of CSM in Rhinos with Plasma, Abaddon with some Termies to deep strike, a Defiler, some Thousand Sons, Khorne Beserkers in a LR, a Predator, maybe a Sorcerer and Ahriman. He has a fair few Bikers and Havocs as well. He has the entire Dark Vengeance box set, and I'm willing to let him proxy anything he wants. So all in all, not a massively competitive army, but fitting with the fluff which he absolutely adores.

As my army has a Biel-Tan colour scheme, I'd ideally like to play with the Aspect Warriors as much as possible, however I know they can be slightly ridiculous.

Also, I don't want him to think I'm just completely handicapping myself to let him win, and he knows about all the bonuses from the formations, so if I were to include some Aspect Warriors without the formation, he would question it, so I don't want to do anything like that.

The options I have available are as follows:

HQ:
Every named character bar Jain Zar + Baharroth
3 Farseers
6 Warlocks (If I wanted a Spiritseer I'd proxy one)
1 Autarch

Troops:
Around 40 Guardian Defenders and 6 Weapons Platforms (3 BL, 3 SL)
9 Rangers
25 Dire Avengers
8 Windriders (2 with Canons, the rest Catapults)

Elites:
10 Fire Dragons
10 Striking Scorpions
7 Howling Banshees
15 Wraithguard (willing to proxy as Wraithblades)

Fast Attack:
10 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
2 Vypers
4 Shining Spears

Heavy Support:
7 Falcon-Chassis (Most are modelled as WS or Falcons, but again we will use them as anything with the chassis)
9 Dark Reapers
2 War Walkers
2 Wraithlords
3 Vaul's Support Batteries

Lords of War:
2 Avatars
1 Wraithknight


Dark Eldar Allies:
2 Archons
20 Kabalites
2 Raiders


Now, I was thinking about trying to invest as many points as possible in the Guardian Defender Battlehost. Maybe take something like Illic + Rangers. Have a CC Aspect Host with my Scorpions, Spears and Banshees. Maybe with Wraithblades and Banshees in the Raiders?
I'd quite like to use the Avatar as well - Not only is it one of my favourite models but my brother loves Deep Striking Abaddon + Termies into my backfield and getting him to challenge something strong. I think that would be a good clash!

So, without obviously shooting myself in the foot, what kind of army would you suggest I use to make it a more level playing field, with one of the strongest codices vs the weakest?
Any suggestions, be they suggesting units for either of us, or creating a full blown list, would be absolutely amazing, as we are both relative newbies to actually playing the game!

Try a Highlander list, One of each type of unit. Then limit yourself as well to only: 1 HQ, 0-2 Fast, 0-2 Heavy, 0-2 Elite, and fluff up your troops to one of each unit. I find it has helped me learn to play Eldar better and it give the current "bad" armies a chance to do something.

NG77 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The best solution would be to houserule stuff. Buff csm, make what models he has playable, nerf eldar - get what overpowered think you think you have back in line. That'd feel much better than listbuilding handicaps. He probably knows allready what his army lacks. The game can really be smooth if you're not afraid to write your own rules.

What buffs would you suggest?
I've said that for the next game he can take free marks on all his units, and that he doesn't have to use the force org chart but can still get ObSec on troops

He doesn't really know how to improve his army other than make it cheaper!

I'd do the following to improve his chances and make the game a bit more fair:

Army wide: give CSM stubborn. And squad champions should get +1 wound, +1 WS, +1 BS. Yep, all the chaos stuff is supposed to be character-focused. It's the individual strive for power. Only the best can rise. Forced to get in challenges? Well, make it at least worthwile!

Abaddon - Change his useless warlord trait that gives Hatred: Space Marines to Preferred enemy (everything). Give him a damn 3++ finally. Half-decent.

Ahriman - well, he's just an overpriced but fine hq for infiltration lists. The problem is there's Abaddon in this list allready. So, i'd simply suggest playing him as a regular sorc.

1000 sons - specific unit. Lots of stuff can be said bout them. Basically, they need a full concept change. But as is, simply make them cheaper. 18 points per marine. With 2 wounds and ws-bs5 sorcs they're gona be all that much better.

Stick to the CAD.

Don't duplicate non-troops.

Keep Aspect units, aside from DAs, to 6 or less.

Don't fully mech up.

At most, 1 Windrider squad with, at most, 1 heavy per 3 guys.

No other formations or detachments. Not even Allied. Especially not allied.

No WK.

Should be a lot closer.

More specifically, take a CAD with Guardians and DAs. Take a leader (probably Farseer) on foot, not in an artillery unit. Maybe add a piece of armor or two. Then add a bunch of Aspects, only one squad of each, and never more than 6.

That gives you lots of options, but nothing unstoppable. Not only does he now have a chance (boltguns really hurt aspect warriors!), but even if he loses, he had options. It should be a lot more fun.

I've had more luck making my games enjoyable for the other player by ensuring I had some CC and some ranged. And ensuring most of my ranged was short range, without foolproof delivery.

Bharring, you should note this.

NG77 wrote:
I don't want him to think I'm just completely handicapping myself to let him win, and he knows about all the bonuses from the formations, so if I were to include some Aspect Warriors without the formation, he would question it, so I don't want to do anything like that.

Ah. Reading comprehension fail.

NG77 wrote:
I'll probably beat him yes, but that's partly because he hasn't quite got the hang of his tactics yet. I know they're not optimal units, but they've honestly done far more damage than pretty much anything else he has!

He does want obliterators, but he can't afford them yet, same with a helldrake and a juggerlord. I didn't think about running him with Berserkers actually, I'll suggest that to him!

Out of the options available to him, what would you say the best units are?

Mate, even if he'd been playing the army for years, there's just a gap that can't be overcome. I watched a game recently, 2550 of BA vs 1850 of Eldar and the only reason it was a draw was the game ended on turn 5 with the BA player about to lose his last 2 models to the remaining 80% of the eldar army if it went to turn 6. Given that Chaos is in a worse state than BA at the moment, I'm just not seeing how he can manage a win.

As to what to use, get him to proxy the units suggested, even if it's a bit of carboard cutout with the same base size and the unit written on top.

If you wanted to do a codex re-write, there's a link around here where ... Z-Man (?) I think re-did most of the main codecies to be reaonably balanced. Perhaps give that a try?

Ah, after a bit of a search, it was Zagman :
Errata - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648525.page
Chaos - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/649384.page
Eldar - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648754.page

If you don't want to try that, then some suggestions for the units he has would be;
Abbadon gets a 3++, may choose warlord trait from CSM table
CSM may purchase veteran skills (infiltrate, tank hunter, scout etc) for an agreed upon price
Chaos Termies get a 3 point per model price drop
Defiler is 140 points base and gains +1 WS and I
TSons are 120 points base, extra Tsons for 21 ppm, relentless while sorceror still alive
Bersekers are 17 ppm and get chainaxes for free
Ahriman either gains a spell familiar or drops to 200 points
I'd also second koooaei's idea of +1 wound and WS (but not BS) for Aspiring champions (and their cult equivalents) to turn them into mini HQ's. Enough to bully other sarges and give a slim but not inconcievable chance at beating up a non combat HQ whilst still being fodder for actual combat characters.

It'd still be a mighty struggle against even tond down eldar, but if the dice went his way, he' might have a chance.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Try a Highlander list, One of each type of unit. Then limit yourself as well to only: 1 HQ, 0-2 Fast, 0-2 Heavy, 0-2 Elite, and fluff up your troops to one of each unit. I find it has helped me learn to play Eldar better and it give the current "bad" armies a chance to do something.

After I've had a go with the Battlehost formation discussed above, I'll definitely give something similar to Highlander a try. I don't have any Storm Guardians though, which does make it slightly more difficult to do. Although I'd also like to include some of my special characters, so I may put two Phoenix Lords in or something.

 koooaei wrote:


I'd do the following to improve his chances and make the game a bit more fair:

Army wide: give CSM stubborn. And squad champions should get +1 wound, +1 WS, +1 BS. Yep, all the chaos stuff is supposed to be character-focused. It's the individual strive for power. Only the best can rise. Forced to get in challenges? Well, make it at least worthwile!

Abaddon - Change his useless warlord trait that gives Hatred: Space Marines to Preferred enemy (everything). Give him a damn 3++ finally. Half-decent.

Ahriman - well, he's just an overpriced but fine hq for infiltration lists. The problem is there's Abaddon in this list allready. So, i'd simply suggest playing him as a regular sorc.

1000 sons - specific unit. Lots of stuff can be said bout them. Basically, they need a full concept change. But as is, simply make them cheaper. 18 points per marine. With 2 wounds and ws-bs5 sorcs they're gona be all that much better.

Is Stubborn a good enough replacement for ATSKNF? I'd agree about the extra wound and WS + BS, I'll make sure I suggest that to him. I remember one recent game a unit of CSM charged a unit of Swooping Hawks, and the Exarch killed his Champion. That same round the exact same happened with a unit of Warp Spiders too. He was absolutely fuming.

That would be an awesome warlord trait actually, I'll definitely try and suggest that too. With Ahriman, does the ability to shoot out 3 witchfires a turn not make him pretty amazing? I'm not entirely sure how it works though, does he get to fire it three times, or does he have to manifest it each time?

Bharring wrote:
Stick to the CAD.

Don't duplicate non-troops.

Keep Aspect units, aside from DAs, to 6 or less.

Don't fully mech up.

At most, 1 Windrider squad with, at most, 1 heavy per 3 guys.

No other formations or detachments. Not even Allied. Especially not allied.

No WK.

Should be a lot closer.

More specifically, take a CAD with Guardians and DAs. Take a leader (probably Farseer) on foot, not in an artillery unit. Maybe add a piece of armor or two. Then add a bunch of Aspects, only one squad of each, and never more than 6.

That gives you lots of options, but nothing unstoppable. Not only does he now have a chance (boltguns really hurt aspect warriors!), but even if he loses, he had options. It should be a lot more fun.

I've had more luck making my games enjoyable for the other player by ensuring I had some CC and some ranged. And ensuring most of my ranged was short range, without foolproof delivery.

Why especially not allied? Only allies I'd take are DE, and I wouldn't use DS shenanigans against him. As far as I'm aware, DE aren't as good as Eldar, wouldn't that be limiting myself?

Yeah I've found his boltguns just decimate me, volume of fire is killer with my feeble space elves. I'm also quite tempted to try and put out one of every Aspect, but as he knows about the formations he'd definitely wonder why I'm not giving myself the bonuses. With DA as troops I can get away with it, as I can say I wanted them to have ObSec and needed a CAD. All the others seem a bit foolish not to put in the Host, and he knows that.

I'd potentially take multiple Scorpions, some Banshees and some Spears, and then put my Hawks and Spiders in and have two +1WS Shrines, as the WS bonus isn't as game changing as the BS one.

 Drasius wrote:

Mate, even if he'd been playing the army for years, there's just a gap that can't be overcome. I watched a game recently, 2550 of BA vs 1850 of Eldar and the only reason it was a draw was the game ended on turn 5 with the BA player about to lose his last 2 models to the remaining 80% of the eldar army if it went to turn 6. Given that Chaos is in a worse state than BA at the moment, I'm just not seeing how he can manage a win.

As to what to use, get him to proxy the units suggested, even if it's a bit of carboard cutout with the same base size and the unit written on top.

If you wanted to do a codex re-write, there's a link around here where ... Z-Man (?) I think re-did most of the main codecies to be reaonably balanced. Perhaps give that a try?

Ah, after a bit of a search, it was Zagman :
Errata - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648525.page
Chaos - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/649384.page
Eldar - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648754.page

If you don't want to try that, then some suggestions for the units he has would be;
Abbadon gets a 3++, may choose warlord trait from CSM table
CSM may purchase veteran skills (infiltrate, tank hunter, scout etc) for an agreed upon price
Chaos Termies get a 3 point per model price drop
Defiler is 140 points base and gains +1 WS and I
TSons are 120 points base, extra Tsons for 21 ppm, relentless while sorceror still alive
Bersekers are 17 ppm and get chainaxes for free
Ahriman either gains a spell familiar or drops to 200 points
I'd also second koooaei's idea of +1 wound and WS (but not BS) for Aspiring champions (and their cult equivalents) to turn them into mini HQ's. Enough to bully other sarges and give a slim but not inconcievable chance at beating up a non combat HQ whilst still being fodder for actual combat characters.

It'd still be a mighty struggle against even tond down eldar, but if the dice went his way, he' might have a chance.

Do you think the gap would be that massive even if I restricted my army as has been discussed here and gave him these bonuses?

Those suggestions are all really great. I particularly like the look of that new Defiler. It's by far his favourite model, so he uses it, regardless of its hit and miss record. That said, it has a history of absolutely decimating my brother's SM, so it has definitely proved its value there! I'll give him all these suggestions and see what he thinks. I'm not sure changing the whole codex is something he'd be that interested in, but lowering the points of some of his models would be really useful, as he knows some of his units are just too overpriced for what they do.


Thanks so much for all your suggestions guys, I've got a couple of good ideas for when I next play him now! Once we get time to have a game, I'll update you all with what I did and how it went!

ATSKNF is powerful. SM players don't apreciate it simply cause they're used to good stuff, i think. Regular csm without fearless are very vulnerable to sweeping advances. There's a reason you usually see fearless stuff. Cause non-fearless csm are too unreliable for the points. Stubborn is what they should have at very least.

As for defiler, they used to cost 150 pts in 5-th when vehicle rules made them tougher and battlecannon actually was pretty darn good. Now they cost 205 pts for no good reason. I think, 140-150 is a nice price and would make them decent. Not great but playable at least.

Ahriman still has to manifest every power separately. And he's a guy with 3+ 4++ that costs like a landraider and will go down to a krak missile. And he has no spell familliar and HAS to spend one mastery level on tzeench power table with only one fine power. He's not better than a regular sorc that costs 2 times less - let's put it like this. The only really good thing he brings to the table is his warlord trait.

NG77 wrote:
Do you think the gap would be that massive even if I restricted my army as has been discussed here and gave him these bonuses?
...

Thanks so much for all your suggestions guys, I've got a couple of good ideas for when I next play him now! Once we get time to have a game, I'll update you all with what I did and how it went!

Between 2 equally skilled players, yeah, I think that the gap is not something that can be overcome more than 10-20% of the time. With a more experienced general playing the Eldar, that would drop to <5%. Hell, I literally randomly selected an 1850 Eldar army by rolling dice (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665200.page) that would crush virtually any of my chaos lists I cared to field.

I eagerly await seeing a batrep of your game, or even just a brief outline of what happened.

 koooaei wrote:
ATSKNF is powerful. SM players don't apreciate it simply cause they're used to good stuff, i think. Regular csm without fearless are very vulnerable to sweeping advances. There's a reason you usually see fearless stuff. Cause non-fearless csm are too unreliable for the points. Stubborn is what they should have at very least.

As for defiler, they used to cost 150 pts in 5-th when vehicle rules made them tougher and battlecannon actually was pretty darn good. Now they cost 205 pts for no good reason. I think, 140-150 is a nice price and would make them decent. Not great but playable at least.

Ahriman still has to manifest every power separately. And he's a guy with 3+ 4++ that costs like a landraider and will go down to a krak missile. And he has no spell familliar and HAS to spend one mastery level on tzeench power table with only one fine power. He's not better than a regular sorc that costs 2 times less - let's put it like this. The only really good thing he brings to the table is his warlord trait.

It does seem ridiculous how much better the SM rules are than the C:SM ones. I was thinking maybe have something like ATSKNF when the Champion is still alive, but nothing when he's dead? Then it shows how CSM are inclined to follow the strong, but still have that sense of self preservation.

Yeah I'm definitely gonna drop the points for that, it just seems so unreasonably overpriced.

Oh, he doesn't even have EW? That's pretty poor. Maybe if I gave him a spell familiar, and made it so that he picks a power to use his staff with. Then, for every warp charge over the cost he successfully manifests, he can fire it again (to a maximum of 3). Would that make him usable?

 Drasius wrote:


Between 2 equally skilled players, yeah, I think that the gap is not something that can be overcome more than 10-20% of the time. With a more experienced general playing the Eldar, that would drop to <5%. Hell, I literally randomly selected an 1850 Eldar army by rolling dice (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665200.page) that would crush virtually any of my chaos lists I cared to field.

I eagerly await seeing a batrep of your game, or even just a brief outline of what happened.

Damn. Hopefully with all these suggestions we can make it a more even game. To be honest, the last game we played was pretty even until the last turn, but I managed to destroy his LR with some Swooping Hawks and Illic managed to snipe Abaddon's head off despite his Terminator retinue. Otherwise it was just Hawks, 3 Night Spinners and a unit of Rangers with Illic vs a LR, Abaddon and Termies.

I don't think it will be for a few weeks at the earliest, would it be best to revive this topic when it happens or just post in Battle Reports?