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Disclaimer Yes this is a WAAC tactic used in a b&p game, if used as a for real strat no one would play with you etc etc etc This is not about that I am wondering if this is a legitiment tactic. I don't care about never finding a player who would play it or other what if's.
In the rules it talks about sudden death victories and one of them is
Endure:
Have at least one model
which started the battle on the
battlefield still in play at the end of the
sixth battle round
In order to get the sudden death victory one's opponent has to have 1/3 more models then you.
Carrion unit from TK special rule
Circling High Above:
When first set up, units of Carrion are assumed to be flying high above the battlefield. As long as they remain high in the sky, they cannot be charged, attacked, targeted by spells or affected by abilities used by either side, and they also cannot make any attacks themselves as they soar far above their foes. Enemy units ignore the Carrion as they move (they move underneath them)
Could a Tk player just set up a single carrion model and his/her opponent sets up 3 or more models and the TK player picks Endure and just flys his carrion model around not charging and simply wins since the carrion model can't be hurt at all?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
A counter is to deploy EVERYTHING in your collection. I mean EVERYTHING. And then be incredibly slow at taking your turns. Measuring every distance of every model, pondering each move as your oppenent nags you and looks at their watch.
Play so slowly that you run out of time and force the draw.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
A counter is to deploy EVERYTHING in your collection. I mean EVERYTHING. And then be incredibly slow at taking your turns. Measuring every distance of every model, pondering each move as your oppenent nags you and looks at their watch.
Play so slowly that you run out of time and force the draw.
What do you mean by run out of time?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
A counter is to deploy EVERYTHING in your collection. I mean EVERYTHING. And then be incredibly slow at taking your turns. Measuring every distance of every model, pondering each move as your oppenent nags you and looks at their watch.
Play so slowly that you run out of time and force the draw.
What do you mean by run out of time?
I thinks Bottle is assuming you are talking from the perspective of someone participating in a competitive tournament setting with timed rounds. For if you intended to use this "tactic" amongst friends or FLGS pick up games I don't think you'd be a valued member of any community for long.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
There's a natural time limit on *any* game - most people have homes to go to!
It's a douche move that can be deployed to counteract a prime douche move - so the carrion player can hardly argue...
It's also more ammo for playing scenarios, as most of the time sudden death doesn't apply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 07:05:48
A counter is to deploy EVERYTHING in your collection. I mean EVERYTHING. And then be incredibly slow at taking your turns. Measuring every distance of every model, pondering each move as your oppenent nags you and looks at their watch.
Play so slowly that you run out of time and force the draw.
What do you mean by run out of time?
I thinks Bottle is assuming you are talking from the perspective of someone participating in a competitive tournament setting with timed rounds. For if you intended to use this "tactic" amongst friends or FLGS pick up games I don't think you'd be a valued member of any community for long.
Isn't that just stalling and usually against the rules at most tournies?
Also
Disclaimer Yes this is a WAAC tactic used in a b&p game, if used as a for real strat no one would play with you etc etc etc This is not about that I am wondering if this is a legitiment tactic. I don't care about never finding a player who would play it or other what if's.
I don't plan on using it. I was wondering if it was a thing that didn't have a draw back game play wise aside from the already mentioned or was missing a rule making it not playable
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 07:12:45
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
All you need to do is take a Carrion. You can also take Nagash along, for the lulz.
Send the Carrion into orbit and then feth around with Nagash, just so you maintain the idea that you're not clearly abusing the system and have something to do in your turn than say "pass".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 09:04:22
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
If your opponent deploys 1 carrion just deploy NAgash. If he stops at one carrion then it will be a draw, if he puts anything else down you can deploy and have a vaguely normal game, just make sure you don't give away sudden death lol.
Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
You need 3x the models to given them sudden death, so if you play TK just deploy a single model (I.e., any hero) or two (if they deploy first). Thus forces them to either deploy more, or let's you stop deploying prior to giving them sudden death. It is a horribly silly "tactic" but also easily countered.
You don't need 3x the models. You need 1.3x the models. Your best counter is to deploy a single, extremely powerful model and NOTHING else. That way, the Carrion player doesn't get a Sudden Death objective. The best he can hope for in this scenario is a draw. It won't matter how many turns he can hold out. He won't have the Endure objective since he won't be outnumbered.
Slowhammering may or may not work. Taking away his Endure objective might not get you a win, but it completely breaks his instant win tactic, leaving the game as a draw if he refuses to engage you with the Carrion.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
toasteroven wrote: These are the sort of poorly thought out rules that should never had got past a testing stage.
The rules work absolutely fine if you assume a certain amount of common sense and sportsmanship. In reality, this Carrion thing is never, ever going to be an issue because anyone who tries it will very quickly run out of opponents. The mechanic is sound and works fine in the context of a friendly game as played by two people with average levels of sportsmanship. It doesn't work in an environment where sportsmanship isn't valued and the only objective is to win at the expense of everything else. Of course, in such an environment, this is a losing tactic as the best you can hope for against a player with a similarly mercenary attitude towards the game is a draw.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
I agree that it's not going to come up in a well played game, but it's still a poorly written rule. Anything that gives a unit effective invulnerability in a game where victory is based around destroying units is problematic.
toasteroven wrote: I agree that it's not going to come up in a well played game, but it's still a poorly written rule. Anything that gives a unit effective invulnerability in a game where victory is based around destroying units is problematic.
Most of the scenarios would prevent this happening, either due to set up rules or victory conditions.
I could see two Tk players trying this out on each other a single carron on each side. Circling, just circling.....
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
toasteroven wrote: I agree that it's not going to come up in a well played game, but it's still a poorly written rule. Anything that gives a unit effective invulnerability in a game where victory is based around destroying units is problematic.
Most of the scenarios would prevent this happening, either due to set up rules or victory conditions.
Fair enough. I don't have a lot of experience with the scenarios.
Oberron wrote:I could see two Tk players trying this out on each other a single carron on each side. Circling, just circling.....
"And they're still playing to this day. If you listen closely, you can hear the sound of dice not being rolled..."
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
Exactly, common sense!
Still, I'm willing to bet someone has already tried this gak, somewhere.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
Exactly, common sense!
Still, I'm willing to bet someone has already tried this gak, somewhere.
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
Exactly, common sense!
Still, I'm willing to bet someone has already tried this gak, somewhere.
More than likely.
can confirm, had this happen to me (similar thing can be achieved by fielding the formation for the stormcast from the boxed set).
problem is because the way my local club is run you don't know who you're facing until you arrive and because they are also booked in you can't ask for another opponent so the options are play them or don't play at all. (worst thing is the kid who tried this is an awful winner and a bad loser and thoroughly unpleasant in between) haven't played AoS since and don't plan on playing again, will be sticking to WHFB where the rules are fair. (sorry for the rant, I left the club early the other week because he was being thoroughly toxic to me while he wasn't even playing and it's left a bad taste in my mouth since.)
host of the eternity king 3500pts+ lizardmen 1000pts
and 2000pts+ 8000+ pts 1400+ pts
HH 7700+ pts 1350 pts HH raven guard 2500+ pts 50 pp Idoneth Deepkin 2000 pts
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
Exactly, common sense!
Still, I'm willing to bet someone has already tried this gak, somewhere.
More than likely.
can confirm, had this happen to me (similar thing can be achieved by fielding the formation for the stormcast from the boxed set).
problem is because the way my local club is run you don't know who you're facing until you arrive and because they are also booked in you can't ask for another opponent so the options are play them or don't play at all. (worst thing is the kid who tried this is an awful winner and a bad loser and thoroughly unpleasant in between) haven't played AoS since and don't plan on playing again, will be sticking to WHFB where the rules are fair. (sorry for the rant, I left the club early the other week because he was being thoroughly toxic to me while he wasn't even playing and it's left a bad taste in my mouth since.)
To be fair, this isn't a game issue. This is a player issue. It sounds like this guy would be unpleasant to play against with any game. I would have told him I'm not playing his one trick pony list and then I would have talked to the club leadership about negative experiences. Club leadership needs to deal with this ASAP. Speaking as a former GW store operator managing a gaming community of roughly 200 people, a person like this can poison a community and cause you to lose members.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
JamesY wrote: Trouble is, why would you even do it? If you wanted to win a game just to say you've won a game, without ever really playing a game, then what's the point?
Exactly, but the true trouble here is - what's really stopping a player from fielding that apart from common sense?
Actually wanting a game? Honestly if I took the time to put an army together, travelled into town for a game, only for someone to try that... They'd have to explain to the surgeon exactly how that piece of resin got stuck up there.
Exactly, common sense!
Still, I'm willing to bet someone has already tried this gak, somewhere.
More than likely.
can confirm, had this happen to me (similar thing can be achieved by fielding the formation for the stormcast from the boxed set).
problem is because the way my local club is run you don't know who you're facing until you arrive and because they are also booked in you can't ask for another opponent so the options are play them or don't play at all. (worst thing is the kid who tried this is an awful winner and a bad loser and thoroughly unpleasant in between) haven't played AoS since and don't plan on playing again, will be sticking to WHFB where the rules are fair. (sorry for the rant, I left the club early the other week because he was being thoroughly toxic to me while he wasn't even playing and it's left a bad taste in my mouth since.)
That's a shame. It would be even more of a shame to let one turnip put you off what is usually a fun game. I only play against friends now so that I don't have to put up with such characters. Less games, but at least every game is a great laugh.
If you go up against him again and he tries it, just wait until he flies it your way, then flatten it with the palm of your hand and shout 'gotcha you little bugger!' with a childishly gleeful look on your face. Then reimburse him for the model, with a little extra.
Edit just seen kriswall's response and completely agree.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 18:26:49
can confirm, had this happen to me (similar thing can be achieved by fielding the formation for the stormcast from the boxed set).
problem is because the way my local club is run you don't know who you're facing until you arrive and because they are also booked in you can't ask for another opponent so the options are play them or don't play at all. (worst thing is the kid who tried this is an awful winner and a bad loser and thoroughly unpleasant in between) haven't played AoS since and don't plan on playing again, will be sticking to WHFB where the rules are fair. (sorry for the rant, I left the club early the other week because he was being thoroughly toxic to me while he wasn't even playing and it's left a bad taste in my mouth since.)
Play again. Play a scenario.
Pre-emptive Strike's a pretty good one as it actually specifies units must be set-up within a certain number of inches of things, which knackers the whole plan
Alternatively, have a chat with your club's committee/management - because they have a responsibility to ensure the club is a nice place, but if your option is either play 'that kid' or don't play at all, that sounds extremely poor.
Technically if the carrion was the only model in the army and was flying high, it's no longer on the field of battle and the player would auto lose due to no models being on the field of battle.
3 crazy meatballs wrote: Technically if the carrion was the only model in the army and was flying high, it's no longer on the field of battle and the player would auto lose due to no models being on the field of battle.
It's definitely on the field of battle. It just can't be targeted in any way and you can move through it.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
3 crazy meatballs wrote: Technically if the carrion was the only model in the army and was flying high, it's no longer on the field of battle and the player would auto lose due to no models being on the field of battle.
I'm pretty sure it works differently then the under the sand rule other TK units have. That is why I was wondering this in the first place.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
"Circling High Above: When first set up,
units of Carrion are assumed to be flying
high above the battlefield. As long as they
remain high in the sky, they cannot be
charged, attacked, targeted by spells or
affected by abilities used by either side,
and they also cannot make any attacks
themselves as they soar far above their
foes. Enemy units ignore the Carrion as
they move (they move underneath them)"
WHEN FIRST SET UP. They have most certainly been set up on the battlefield. They just have some extra rules in play making them more or less invulnerable to attack until they make an attack.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
and 
2000pts+ 
8000+ pts 
1400+ pts
1350 pts HH raven guard 2500+ pts 
50 pp Idoneth Deepkin 2000 pts 