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So.... I got a wild hair up my rear. I saw a Tau Manta for in real life for the first time, and I spent an hour in the Iowa state Capital building looking at the 1/48 scale Battleship Iowa they have on display. Now I am wanting to make a BattleFleet Gothic ship in 40k Scale. I understand that even in 28mm scale a battleship would be a couple hundred feet long. I'm not doing that, or even an escort vessel. What I am wanting to do is basically an in-system patrol vessel. Something that would be about 5 feet long, 1.5 feet wide, and about equivalent to two Tau Mantas. Basically what the Imperium would use to scout inside a planetary system, or pursue pirates/ smugglers. Something with a crew of about 70, and maybe not even have a faster-than-light ability. The BFG version of a WWII PT boat.

I have a few things that I need it to do. Keep to the basic Imperial ship design, look like it can make planetary landings (I will occasionally use this as terrain or an objective in an Apocalypse game), be as big as I can physically make it while still being moveable and able to be carried out of my home, and use as many GW bits as possible.

I do have some questions though for those that are BFG fans. What kind of weapons are common for small ships in the Imperial Navy? If I happened to make a guess, some kind of giant torpedoes, giant lascannon-like turrets for point defense, something akin to volcano cannons, and some missile launchers. Do BFG ships use giant plasma cannons at all?

This sounds like almost more project than one person could handle, but good luck all the same. Make sure to take lots of pics as you put it together!

Okay, the first thing that you have to understand is that the smallest frigate (the Cobra class) is around a mile and a half long. a Battleship is in the region of 12 to 16 miles, class and manufacture depending. This means that in 40K scale - 28MM scale - your smallest BB (Battleship) would be in the region of 689 METRES long. That is six HUNDRED and 89 METRES or the equivalent of nearly seven football pitches in length. There are WARSHIPS in modern day service that are less than half the size of your model.
Next up is the width. Allowing for the relatives given by the BFG models your BB would be around 200 metres wide. You could park two Destroyers next to each other in that width.
(FYI, even a Cobra class Destroyer, the smallest ship, is around 86 metres long at this scale....)

Now on to the firepower. The cannons carried by these ships hurl a variety of nasty death ranging from shell to plasma to laser but for the most part all basic battery guns are called 'Macro Cannons'. To put these within the relative scale of 40K even the smallest such cannon makes a mere Volcano Cannon look like a baby laspistol. Hell, not even that. If just ONE of these guns (and bare in mind that a BB will have around 60+ of these and even a DD will have 2 to 4) would destroy everything on a standard 40K table top including the terrain. And thats on a NEAR MISS. On a direct hit you would be best just setting fire to the table. After dousing it with napalm.
Then we have the Lances. These are essentially super focused energy cannons that can make a mockery of even the thickest armour plate though thankfully they are not as common. These bad boys make your humbe Macro Cannon look like a childs toy and in all honesty a single hit would gut a hive city. Your table top? Just place a 1000LB incendiary bomb on it and set it off. THAT is how powerful these guns are.
Thankfully you are not going for a full scale capital ship so we can leave out such nasties such as Nova Cannons.

Now, your PT boat would most likely be in the region of 40 metres long at this scale and would carry 4 to 8 single shot torpedoes. I am not going to go into what a torpedo would do at this scale - there is no point in all honesty.
For your secondary batteries/CIDS you would probably have around 20 Volcano Cannon equivalents, 180 Long Range Missile Launchers (Missile Launchers with a 200" range), 8 or so Punisher Gatlings and 4 Battlecannon with 4 Vanquisher Cannon backing them up.
AV would be 14/15/15 or more.

I'm actually just in the beginning of the planning faze. If all goes well I'll get started on this in a couple months. I might be making an Ork or Necron Ship instead though. (ORks are fun, and scrap heaps are hard to mess up).

To speed things up I'm wanting to use Some GW bits, like using 6 lascannon turrets from the Fortress of Redemption kit as gothic point-defense weapons. I want the Torpedo tubes to look like they are one-shot weapons that are too large to have on board crew reload. They have to return to base for another round (kind of like a PT boat). I'd like to have two dorsal mounted turrets, each with two Volcano Cannons in them, and possibly a very small hanger behind the command tower, just large enough to fit something the size of an Arvus lighter (just for scouting, personel transfers, and small boarding parties).

I like the sound, kind of like a light PT boat? It should work really well, but to bare in mnd that the Torpedo tubes will be about 12" across and 36+" long at this scale.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay, the first thing that you have to understand is that the smallest frigate (the Cobra class) is around a mile and a half long. a Battleship is in the region of 12 to 16 miles, class and manufacture depending. This means that in 40K scale - 28MM scale - your smallest BB (Battleship) would be in the region of 689 METRES long. That is six HUNDRED and 89 METRES or the equivalent of nearly seven football pitches in length. There are WARSHIPS in modern day service that are less than half the size of your model.
Next up is the width. Allowing for the relatives given by the BFG models your BB would be around 200 metres wide. You could park two Destroyers next to each other in that width.
(FYI, even a Cobra class Destroyer, the smallest ship, is around 86 metres long at this scale....)

Now on to the firepower. The cannons carried by these ships hurl a variety of nasty death ranging from shell to plasma to laser but for the most part all basic battery guns are called 'Macro Cannons'. To put these within the relative scale of 40K even the smallest such cannon makes a mere Volcano Cannon look like a baby laspistol. Hell, not even that. If just ONE of these guns (and bare in mind that a BB will have around 60+ of these and even a DD will have 2 to 4) would destroy everything on a standard 40K table top including the terrain. And thats on a NEAR MISS. On a direct hit you would be best just setting fire to the table. After dousing it with napalm.
Then we have the Lances. These are essentially super focused energy cannons that can make a mockery of even the thickest armour plate though thankfully they are not as common. These bad boys make your humbe Macro Cannon look like a childs toy and in all honesty a single hit would gut a hive city. Your table top? Just place a 1000LB incendiary bomb on it and set it off. THAT is how powerful these guns are.
Thankfully you are not going for a full scale capital ship so we can leave out such nasties such as Nova Cannons.

Now, your PT boat would most likely be in the region of 40 metres long at this scale and would carry 4 to 8 single shot torpedoes. I am not going to go into what a torpedo would do at this scale - there is no point in all honesty.
For your secondary batteries/CIDS you would probably have around 20 Volcano Cannon equivalents, 180 Long Range Missile Launchers (Missile Launchers with a 200" range), 8 or so Punisher Gatlings and 4 Battlecannon with 4 Vanquisher Cannon backing them up.
AV would be 14/15/15 or more.

Yeah, I understand exactly how massive 40k Warships are. There has to be something though that is on the tiny side of things. Maybe if the "PT boat" analogy still makes things too large, downscale it to a two-man river patrol boat or something. The Imperium hates small-time pirates and smugglers. I'm sure they don't send a full-on warship after them every time some food shipment goes missing.

The BL comic Obvious Tactics had some IG landing ships that looked like cathedrals you just plop down on a planet.

That might be worth checking.

mikhaila's stroe has done at least 2 huge projects, a mega gargant and and Eldar webway ship the size of a dining room table.

He'd be worth PMing.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Now, your PT boat would most likely be in the region of 40 metres long at this scale and would carry 4 to 8 single shot torpedoes. I am not going to go into what a torpedo would do at this scale - there is no point in all honesty.
For your secondary batteries/CIDS you would probably have around 20 Volcano Cannon equivalents, 180 Long Range Missile Launchers (Missile Launchers with a 200" range), 8 or so Punisher Gatlings and 4 Battlecannon with 4 Vanquisher Cannon backing them up.
AV would be 14/15/15 or more.

Let's not get too ridiculous about this. OP is asking for something roughly Manta-sized, a "heavy fighter" type of ship that barely counts as a starship instead of expendable ordnance. If a Manta can be represented by stats that are at least vaguely related to normal 40k models then there's no reason why a slightly larger version would have the firepower of whole armies of titans.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I like the sound, kind of like a light PT boat? It should work really well, but to bare in mnd that the Torpedo tubes will be about 12" across and 36+" long at this scale.

Well...... I'm not going for full-scale torpedoes. Once again, there has to be SOMETHING between a 40K scale missile and a BFG torpedo. Something like a Deathstrike missile's larger brother. For modeling purposes I think I'll just use a 30mm wide model rocket nosecone and have it poking out the front of a torpedo tube.

You're probably going to need to rent a football field to keep the damn thing

Mikhalia's mega ultra super gargant



And an ork kruzer.



He's definitely the guy to talk to for @#$%ing huge models.

Wow, this many posts and nobody's provided any actual data?

OK. Imperial System Monitors (Also called Defence Monitors or System Ships) are still about half a mile long, and are usually armed with a single Lance and what BFG calls a Weapons Battery (which is a neat way of saying "A feckton of D-weapons fire linked together" - Lances and Torpedos when used in space make D-weapons look like bolters).

This is a Defence Monitor from BFG;





For ease of comparison, I've cut this down from Dirk Loechel's Big Poster of Sci Fi Sizes - the lengths check out against both my memory and lexicanum;



Using the given length of 601 metres for a Defence Monitor, that means your model would need to be 11.12m long - 36'5"!

Something a little more manageable - and in scale with the Manta - would be something like a Fury Interceptor. I'll leave the Faustus off for now, since we don't have a description of it and it's seriously undergunned compared to everything else the Imperial Navy flies.

The Fury is 60m long (some sources state 70), so the model itself would be a much more manageable 1.07m/3'6" long. In comparison, the Manta is 32m long and 52m wide, 0.59mx0.6m/1'10"x2'10" (the forge world model doesn't actually match either scale, being 2'1"x2'9". It doesn't even fit the dimensions they gave it in the specs, grr).

So, do we want to design our Gothic ship in infantry scale or vehicle scale? Games Workshop infantry are a super-deformed 1/54 scale (which is the conversion I used for the above System Monitor), but their vehicles are closer to 1/35 scale! If we put the System Monitor in 1/35 (vehicle) scale, it becomes 17.17m/56ft long as a model! If we do the same with the Fury, we end up with a model 1.7m/5'6" long, which, if nothing else, would make an awesome half table.

Furyou Miko,
Thanks for the info. I like the idea of a Fury, but it seems a little weird. Only four crew? That thing dwarfs any vehicle in 40k and has fewer crew?
As for the scale, I think I'm going to split the difference and go with 1/48 scale. I'm still shooting for something about 5 feet long though, so something in a slightly heavier weight class than a Fury.
I kind of want to keep the BFG cruiser design. I like the "snow plow" front, and a bridge that hangs off the top of the ship just in front the middle of the ship in an almost WWII battleship way. Basically I want a mini cruiser.
I see the Fury as something that you send on a specific mission. Scout something, or launch it to fight or intercept something.
However, I'm seeing the ship I want to produce as something that sits or strolls around waiting for trouble to find it. A ship that would be assigned to circle asteroid group 343A for a two month duration to watch for contraband smugglers.

Also, I'm looking for appropriate weapon types. It looks like super-sized lascannons and missiles are used. Is plasma weaponry used on ships?

This makes me want to build some terrain of a crashed ship, just like the back of it jutting out of the ground providing 3 feet of cover lol.

Yes - I mentioned that the Faustus is under-gunned. It's got a forward-firing plasma array, a dorsal heavy bolter turret and an autocannon tail turret.

Weapons Batteries are where you'll find plasma weaponry - there and in the form of torpedoes.

That is generally the Fury's role - it's a carrier-based heavy fighter. Its crew consists of Pilot, Gunner, Navigator and Engineer, plus probably some servitors.

I'm sure you could design something - an assault boat perhaps, something like a Shark - that has a more cruiser-type aesthetic. Perhaps it relies on heavy prow armour and a power field to penetrate the enemy hull rather than melta charges?

I wish you luck. Ambition is a good thing. Practicality on the other hand....

Post pics of the progress - if it's done well it'll look BADASS

I've been doing a bit of bits scouting, as I'm trying to make this as easy (and cheap) as possible.

I've found something that would work wonders for the prow armor, at least after I reinforce it with a little epoxy resin. A canopy from an RC helicopter.

Also, these Gothic Building sets from Pegasus look like they could be the upper superstructure of the hull

I think I still like using the Turrets from the Fortress of redemption.

I wonder how the upper part of a Storm Raven would look if I used it as the Bridge?

Anyone have any ideas for the engines?

Honestly I'd just invent my own class, the fluff for ships is all over the place.

BFG has the smallest ships at a mile plus, but older books (Ian Watson's Inquisition Wars, Eye of Terror, Bloodquest) all has smaller warp ships.

And of course an in system ship can be any size at all.

For engines, pipes, nice and easy. Maybe add an LED light?

 cuda1179 wrote:
So.... I got a wild hair up my rear. I saw a Tau Manta for in real life for the first time, and I spent an hour in the Iowa state Capital building looking at the 1/48 scale Battleship Iowa they have on display. Now I am wanting to make a BattleFleet Gothic ship in 40k Scale. I understand that even in 28mm scale a battleship would be a couple hundred feet long. I'm not doing that, or even an escort vessel. What I am wanting to do is basically an in-system patrol vessel. Something that would be about 5 feet long, 1.5 feet wide, and about equivalent to two Tau Mantas. Basically what the Imperium would use to scout inside a planetary system, or pursue pirates/ smugglers. Something with a crew of about 70, and maybe not even have a faster-than-light ability. The BFG version of a WWII PT boat.

I have a few things that I need it to do. Keep to the basic Imperial ship design, look like it can make planetary landings (I will occasionally use this as terrain or an objective in an Apocalypse game), be as big as I can physically make it while still being moveable and able to be carried out of my home, and use as many GW bits as possible.

I do have some questions though for those that are BFG fans. What kind of weapons are common for small ships in the Imperial Navy? If I happened to make a guess, some kind of giant torpedoes, giant lascannon-like turrets for point defense, something akin to volcano cannons, and some missile launchers. Do BFG ships use giant plasma cannons at all?

For the most part, what you're describing would be something too small for BFG to even portray, as even the smallest vessels there are typically a kilometer in length. I don't really recall anything of the size you re describing that comes to mind. I'm sure it must exist in some form, but I can't really recall any sort of concrete example.

 Vaktathi wrote:
[uote]For the most part, what you're describing would be something too small for BFG to even portray, as even the smallest vessels there are typically a kilometer in length. I don't really recall anything of the size you re describing that comes to mind. I'm sure it must exist in some form, but I can't really recall any sort of concrete example.

Yeah, If this was an actual BFG game a squad ofmy ship would be represented by an ordnance marker, basically an attack craft or something.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[uote]For the most part, what you're describing would be something too small for BFG to even portray, as even the smallest vessels there are typically a kilometer in length. I don't really recall anything of the size you re describing that comes to mind. I'm sure it must exist in some form, but I can't really recall any sort of concrete example.

Yeah, If this was an actual BFG game a squad ofmy ship would be represented by an ordnance marker, basically an attack craft or something.

I think if you're generally looking for something bigger than a Manta with a crew of maybe 70 or so people, your best equivalents to look at will probably be things like Titans and the kinds of weapons they carry, which, while fearsome on the ground, are very small in space. Something armed like a Warlord maybe?

Yeah, a few turbo lasers, a volcano cannon on the prow...

A few dozen heavy weapons for support...

I would do a variant of a Starhawk bomber. It's the right size, the crew complement has more of a WWII bomber or patrol torpedo boat feel, it has sleeping quarters and a galley for long missions, and it has an internal weapons bay for anti-capital ship bombs or missiles, which would be HUGE. You can call yours a long range patrol variant and switch the armament up.

I found this picture and I think I will use it as inspiration. I might go half-scale to this, but then again I'm also making the whole ship, not just the prow.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I found this picture and I think I will use it as inspiration. I might go half-scale to this, but then again I'm also making the whole ship, not just the prow.

Thats actually a bit small, it should be about twice the size to be in scale.

Something with a crew of about 70, and maybe not even have a faster-than-light ability. The BFG version of a WWII PT boat.

Sounds fair.

I might point you at a few things:


The guard 'devourer' dropship




The Tetrarch lander

Not warp capable but able to do local space patrol and/or landing through contested orbital space. Both can carry multiple guard tanks or even super-heavy tanks, so they're going to be fairly big.

Both of these are probably the sort of size you're interested in.

I would look at the Wall of Martyrs fortifications for useful components. According to the Rogue Trader rpg, Vulcan Mega-Bolters are fairly standard point defence weapons, but for scale and sanity vengeance emplacement punisher gatlings would look cool, and the Aquilla quake cannon makes a decent scale 'primary weapon' for a light warship.

The Fury isn't that big in the grand scheme of things

Did the ships go up in size or something? i remember the cruisers being 3.5km and the cobra 500 meters.

Opinion time!!!! I would like to know what you guys think would look cooler. I want to mount two torpedoes to this ship. Would it look better to have hatches in the prow armor (BFG battleship style) or have them mounted as external pods hanging off the sides of the ship, PT boat style?

Both ways have their advantages. The mounting in the prow armor has a history in BFG and imperial design, however this would be much more difficult to model. The other way, while less authentic, would be easier, and I would be able to make the torpedoes look muck larger, almost like a WWII PT boat, but using 40k weapon scale exaggeration. It would definitely make it look like it was carrying anti-capital ship weapons.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Furyou Miko,
Thanks for the info. I like the idea of a Fury, but it seems a little weird. Only four crew? That thing dwarfs any vehicle in 40k and has fewer crew?

Its the equivalent of a fighter/bomber, just on a huge scale. It wouldn't need a very large crew at all.

Heck, modern tanker ships are huge and often operate with only a half dozen or so crew. Thats why Somali pirates can so easily capture one.

Mounted on the sides, definitely - for the size of ship you're looking at, considering this;



Also, I can't find it now, but there's an iconic piece of 40k artwork that has a torpedo being prepared for loading on slings - being held up by virtue of about two hundred people hanging onto the other end of the ropes. The torpedo in that image is about five or six people tall.