The Mormon Church, and "Sins" of the Father

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**jasper76**

This seems pretty low, even for an organized religious institution. Children, really???

Mormon church labels same-sex couples apostates
by Ray Sanchez, CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/06/us/mormon-church-policy/index.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/06/us/mormon-church-policy/index.html)

(CNN)A new Mormon church policy considers church members in same-sex marriages as apostates whose children will be barred from baptism and church membership unless they disavow same-sex unions.

The policy is outlined in a guide for lay leaders known as Handbook 1, parts of which were posted online by a popular Mormon podcaster who was excommunicated by the church earlier this year on grounds that his public dissents drove others away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormon church's official name.

In a statement, a Mormon church spokesman, Eric Hawkins, described the document as a "policy and procedural guide" and reaffirmed the church's longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage.

"While it respects the law of the land, and acknowledges the right of others to think and act differently, it does not perform or accept same-sex marriage within its membership," the statement said.

John Dehlin, the excommunicated founder of the podcast "Mormon Stories" and a self-described "unorthodox" Mormon, posted the documents detailing the changes on Facebook Thursday, saying "legally married LGBT Mormons" will likely be "hunted down and threatened with the inhumane and barbaric" church disciplinary procedures.

"We are all diminished by this unfortunate action," Dehlin wrote. "As the LDS church continues to paint itself into a corner, it risks becoming increasingly irrelevant to the developed world."

Troy Williams, executive director of Equality Utah, which pushed for Utah's law protecting the LGBT community and religious freedom, said in a statement said that all churches have the "religious liberty to welcome or exclude whomever they desire."

"But we know that children of same-sex parents are treasures of infinite worth," he said. "In our universe, all God's children have a place in the choir."

Scott Fausett -- who is gay and has three children, including one in the LDS priesthood -- told CNN affiliate KUTV that he was unsure how the change will affect his family.

"It is one thing if the LDS Church doesn't want me being a gay person in their church -- now to exclude children of a gay person just makes no sense to me," Fausett told the station.

Under the new policy, the Mormon church will forbid the "natural or adopted" children of parents in same-sex relationships from receiving a name and a blessing in a ceremony performed by the Mormon priesthood, according to the handbook.

Additionally, children of same-sex unions will be required to be of legal age and no longer living with their parents in order to be baptized, confirmed, ordained or recommended for missionary service. Under the policy, the child would also have to disavow same-sex relationships.

Baptism and confirmation would also require the approval of the church's governing First Presidency, according to the handbook.

Handbook 1 also expands the meaning of apostasy to include members who "are in a same-gender marriage."

The Mormon church, like other religious groups, has tried to strike a delicate balance on gay rights.

Mormons have fought the legalization of same-sex marriage, for example, while trying to avoid the "anti-gay" label sometimes affixed to conservative faiths. Many church members were particularly stung by the fierce backlash to Prop 8. The Mormon-backed referendum was later struck down in court.

Nearly two-thirds of Mormons say homosexuality should be discouraged by society, according to a 2012 survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. The church's official position is that same-sex attraction is not a sin, but acting on it is.

At the same time, Mormon leaders have taken an increasingly civil tone towards gays and lesbians in recent years, and gay rights groups cheered the church for endorsing the Boy Scouts' decision to allow gay scouts in 2013.

With nearly 6.5 million members in the United States, the Mormon church is one of the largest in this country to offer support of LGBT anti-discrimination laws, second only to the United Methodist Church.

The country's two largest Christian denominations, the Catholic church and Southern Baptist Convention, have opposed the Employee Non-Discrimination Act, or ENDA. None of those groups condone gay marriage.

**LethalShade**

Cults in a nutshell.

(Yeah I know it's officially a church, but I keep calling it a cult)

**Sigvatr**

It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

**jasper76**

Sigvatr wrote:
It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

Its news (to me, at least) that the Mormon church excludes the children of married homosexuals from full membership, and requires the children of married homosexuals to publicly disavow their parents' marriage as a requirement for membership.

Is it a common practice in Mormonism to punish children for the perceived crimes of their parents? (I honestly don't know)

**Soladrin**

But... what if a man has a harem of men?

**SilverMK2**

Sigvatr wrote:
It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

Though here it is casting out people who are related to people in same sex relationships. You know, in addition to targeting them directly...

**Alpharius**

LethalShade wrote:
Cults in a nutshell.

(Yeah I know it's officially a church, but I keep calling it a cult)

Don't here, as it will be against Rule #1.

**SilverMK2**

Alpharius wrote:
LethalShade wrote:
Cults in a nutshell.

(Yeah I know it's officially a church, but I keep calling it a cult)

Don't here, as it will be against Rule #1.

Really? It certainly matches pretty much every definition of a cult and was started by a known con-man who could not repeat his own lies when asked to redo part of the book he read off magic gold plates he hid in his hat and which were never seen by anyone other than himself...

**LethalShade**

Alpharius wrote:
LethalShade wrote:
Cults in a nutshell.

(Yeah I know it's officially a church, but I keep calling it a cult)

Don't here, as it will be against Rule #1.

I am always polite. And by the way, should I call a cult a church if it is recognized as a church in the US but not in my country ? (Scientology, for example)
(A bit off topic but I'm curious)

Anyway, calling the son a "sinner" because his father "was" is BS.

**Gitzbitah**

jasper76 wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

Its news (to me, at least) that the Mormon church excludes the children of married homosexuals from full membership, and requires the children of married homosexuals to publicly disavow their parents' marriage as a requirement for membership.

Is it a common practice in Mormonism to punish children for the perceived crimes of their parents? (I honestly don't know)

Do you mean the doctrine of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin ? That's not just Mormons, unfortunately.

That being said, this is a radical example. I wonder if they apply the same standard to other sinners, like the child of a murderer having to disavow their murdering parent before getting the blessings of the church.

**Frazzled**

Sigvatr wrote:
It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

Agreed. The Church of the Great Wienerdog accepts all.*

*Except cat lovers.

those guys.

**MWHistorian**

Actually, many people saw the Gold plates. Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I'd check your sources.

But this new rule isn't to exclude children of gays, but not to tear apart families of gays. The church has similar policies for Muslims, polygamists and any other group that has a fundemental divide with the church's beliefs. The church doesn't want to risk tearing apart families due to children joining the church. That's why they have to wait until they're 18, so they are enough of an adult. But this article explains it much better than I can.
http://wellbehavedmormonwoman.blogspot.com/2015/11/response-to-new-church-policy-gay-marriage-children-baptism.html

And no, the church is not a cult. I understand that you don't like it, but again, you're getting your facts wrong.
Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
The LDS church does not worship a person or thing. Only God.

**Nostromodamus**

MWHistorian wrote:
And no, the church is not a cult. I understand that you don't like it, but again, you're getting your facts wrong.
Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"

Well that description fits almost any religion.

MWHistorian wrote:
The LDS church does not worship a person or thing. Only God.

God is a thing, and also a person in the form of Jesus Christ.

One man's religion is another man's cult.

**SilverMK2**

MWHistorian wrote:
Actually, many people saw the Gold plates. Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I'd check your sources.

There are many differing accounts of who saw what, accounts of people "seeing the gold plates with their spiritual eyes", and later renouncements by people who had earlier claimed to see the plates. And given Smith himself kept the plates to himself and said he was not allowed to show them to anyone...

**NinthMusketeer**

I may disagree with the policy, but I do agree it is fully within their rights to enact it.

**MWHistorian**

SilverMK2 wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Actually, many people saw the Gold plates. Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I'd check your sources.

There are many differing accounts of who saw what, accounts of people "seeing the gold plates with their spiritual eyes", and later renouncements by people who had earlier claimed to see the plates. And given Smith himself kept the plates to himself and said he was not allowed to show them to anyone...

Nope, wrong again. Three people were allowed to handle it. And even after two of them left the church, they didn't deny that they saw and held them. Oliver Cowdery,
David Whitmer and Martin Harris saw and held the plates.

**Relapse**

LethalShade wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
LethalShade wrote:
Cults in a nutshell.

(Yeah I know it's officially a church, but I keep calling it a cult)

Don't here, as it will be against Rule #1.

I am always polite. And by the way, should I call a cult a church if it is recognized as a church in the US but not in my country ? (Scientology, for example)
(A bit off topic but I'm curious)

Anyway, calling the son a "sinner" because his father "was" is BS.

No one is calling the children sinners, but baptising them into a church where they covenent to live one set of standards while their parents are living another set will conflict the child. When they turn 18 they have the option to join if they wish since by then they've had a fair amount of time to decide which lifestyle they agree to. The same holds true for children of polygamists.

Twenty years ago, before gay marriage became anything near the issue that it is, the LDS church issued this proclamation to the world about families:

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng&cid=PA0414-02

In any event, you have an issue where gay parents already are at a strong opposition to church doctrine. Why would they want to have their child baptized into the church?

**hotsauceman1**

I have always made my dislike of LDS vocal. This is one of the many reasons. The fact that the espouse loving thy ones neighbor, but turn away many people and try to pit family against family is disgusting.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have always made my dislike of LDS vocal. This is one of the many reasons. The fact that the espouse loving thy ones neighbor, but turn away many people and try to pit family against family is disgusting.

If you read Historians posts and mine, you would understand the decision is not to tear families apart but keep them from being conflicted. Why would parents, however many they may be, although I don't think it would be many, who so openly oppose church doctrine want to put their child in a situation where they are so conflicted?

As far as pitting family against family, Christ explained his doctrine wouldn't be accepted by all and there would be family conflicts over it:

From Matthew 10:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

**hotsauceman1**

Im sorry, but this is pitting family against family. its about tearing parents from their kids because they live a "Sinful" life

**jhe90**

Family, turning people against each other is pretty wrong.

They have right to, but if its right is another question.

**Chongara**

In bird culture this is what we would call a dick move.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry, but this is pitting family against family. its about tearing parents from their kids because they live a "Sinful" life

Did you read the Matthew quote? Tell me again why any parents who have no belief in a churchs' doctrine as evidenced by their lifestyle would want to have their their child baptized into that church?

**Co'tor Shas**

Frazzled wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
It's well within their rights. If you don't like it, you don't become a part of the church. It's not exactly news that Mormons oppose gay marriage.

Agreed. The Church of the Great Wienerdog accepts all.*

*Except cat lovers. those guys.

What if we love both?

**Alpharius**

I know it is almost impossible for people to conduct themselves in a reasonable manner in any thread involving religion, but unless you're able to do so, don't post.

Otherwise, warnings, suspensions, thread locks, etc.

**Ahtman**

Well this thread is going about as well as expected.

**hotsauceman1**

Tell me why a child should be forced to cut off all ties from its parents in order to be baptized? I know very few other religions that do soo.
It seems tht, with so many religions moving forwards, LDS is mobing backwards.

**Peter Wiggin**

jasper76 wrote:
This seems pretty low, even for an organized religious institution. Children, really???

Abrahamics, doing more "good deeds"!

But did you know there are billions of people in the world who believe, due to religious values, that gays should be killed and not just excommunicated?

**Alpharius**

Well, since we can't even stay on topic here...