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I'm frustrated here, though not nearly as frustrated as the three new players I'm trying to help get into 40k. They're playing Blood Angels, Dark Eldar/Eldar, and CSM/Demons... And every FLGS event I take them to, they're getting matched up vs Tau and give up turn one or two.

And I don't blame them, what they're seeing is point-click-remove. They're developing a sense of learned helplessness and now they're spending their money on Star Wars Armada instead of 40k. And we *need* new blood in our local group really badly. I'd like to hear from Tau players especially, what advice do you have for new players going up against Tau, especially when they don't get first turn?

To make matters worse, one of the most prolific Tau players in our group is almost as new as they are and an overall poor player but trounces them every time.

It just seems like it's really hard to help get new players enthusiastic when they have bad experiences like this.

Are you playing at specific point levels? Allowing certain formations?

I'd start with a real restricted format for your games if you can.

Only a Combined Arms detachment and allies. No lords of war, no formations.

It would allow the newer players to learn more of their own units and tactics on their own. Then slowly expand into the bigger, better things. If your group truly wants new blood, slow-grow league?

 Field_Mouse wrote:
Are you playing at specific point levels? Allowing certain formations?

I'd start with a real restricted format for your games if you can.

Only a Combined Arms detachment and allies. No lords of war, no formations.

It would allow the newer players to learn more of their own units and tactics on their own. Then slowly expand into the bigger, better things. If your group truly wants new blood, slow-grow league?

We play ITC format with some events limited 300 point LoW or lower.

How hardcore are the tau lists?

Have you spoken with those aforementioned Tau players? What kind of lists do they run? (I think I know, but want to be sure) Do they also see a need for new players to revitalize the scene? Ask if they have some experimental TAC lists they want to try outside of the cutthroat mettagame.

Also, what's up with this specific player you mention? How is he prolific if he's new to the game and plays a popular army poorly?

Not knowing those answers, I'd recommend you start with low point games, 500 points unbound, 1000 points CAD to give them short, easy primers on how parts of their army synergize with each other and gradually build up to larger games.

Instead of letting 'em try to fare against experienced/established players, try breaking them in in phases.

Phase 1: Introduction to basic rules / turn structure. Moving, Firing, declarations, explanations of This fething Guy vs That Guy, etc etc. Maybe do a few single unit fights (even without HQ's if possible - keep it as simple as you can) like a squad of firewarriors vs a squad of marines.

Phase 2: More complicated things like assaults, challenges, psyker powers, etc etc.

And so on, and so forth.

First of all, let me say that, unfortunately, you're kinda euchered at the moment. They've already moved onto another game. Trying to force them back at this point is very unlikely for the immediate future. Once they start cooling on Star Wars Armada, then it will be a better time to try and get them back to 40k. 40k has a lot to offer, especially in the size of 40k games, and the vast breadth of units that exist in 40k.

I think a major problem was too quickly bringing them to fight other players. Most collectible games are really hitting their peak levels where multiple friends can grow in the hobby together. Taking these players up against others that are both more experienced, and who likely have larger collections, will definitely lead to the "can't win, don't try" mentality that is very easy to fall into. The fact that it's all very much a mono-field of opponents adds to this problem, regardless of the actual strengths of that faction, if only because you get the sense of "you chose the wrong army, so suck it" that you feel when losing to them over and over.

I'd recommend that if or when you do start up 40k again with them, start small, and keep things in the group at first. Be up front with them that their FLGS is a hot-spot of competitive players with the powerful "net-lists" or anything else that helps them feel like they're not at fault for what happened earlier. Also, try to avoid 40k just being about a power fantasy. As another poster said, they encountered "point-click-delete" armies, which are very much power fantasies. "Oooh, look how quickly I can kill everything!" is how these people feel. They're not wrong for it, but there's other ways to play. Look at campaigns, keep away from formations, and really try to build on the game-as-challenge mentality. The best games are the ones where both players struggle to win because their lists have no immediately imbalances against each other.

Good luck!

When you say FLGS events are you talking tournaments? because teaching new players that way is just throwing them into the deep end of the shark tank.

You could try organizing an escalation league. If older players want to join, try to encourage them to start a new army. That way they aren’t as well practiced with their lists.

I think doubles games are also a good way to teach people. Team the new players up with more experienced guys.

Get started nights are another good thing if you can make it happen. Older players can bring “soft” lists, rather then normal hardcore ones. It might also help if you can find experienced guys who play the same armies as the new guys to give them some pointers. Teach them the basics of list building and the pros/cons of different units in their armies.

If you can find a decent tau player, see if he can give a seminar on how to destroy his army. Or at least help point out why he’s winning.

“The reason I’m BS5 and ignoring cover is these 5 little weaselly guys hiding in the ruin who lit you up with marker lights. They have all the combat staying power of second graders, but enable the rest of my army to devour yours."

Quick question do you play SWA too.

Problem #1 - They were introduced to tournament play too early.
Problem #2 - They were given too high a points limit to learn effectively.

Basically they were tossed into the pool and told "sink or swim". Not cool!

New players need to start small and grow into larger armies as they advance their play skill.

Start with 500 point games; once they're comfortable, move to 750 point games. Once they're comfortable with 750 point games move to 1000, then 1500 and so on.

Unbound armies should be encouraged at the lower end, but not abused. Battle Forged armies should be encouraged as the armies get larger.

Start with simple missions and deployment (i.e. Purge the Alien w/ Dawn of War deployment). As the knowledge base and play skill grows try more advanced missions and deployments.

I'd never take new players to a tournament.

I'd hazard a guess that there is a lack of terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:


Start with 500 point games; once they're comfortable, move to 750 point games.

This.

I feel Yarium (above) may have it right, but I do have a question or two.

How into the hobby aspect of 40k are they? If they don't love their models, they're not going to feel invested enough to stick it out through tough times. Have hobby nights where they can learn better painting techniques...it'll matter.

Does your community have the same worries you do on this topic? Are they doing their best to help the new guys learn the game as they're beating them, or are they just blowing them off the table and high fiving their closest buddy? 40k is a game best played WITH your opponent, not AGAINST, but, unfortunately, some folks either never learn this lesson, or seem not to agree.

Lastly, of the armies you listed being played by the newbies, only the BA is at a serious disadvantage in a take all comers environment heavy in Tau. Dark Eldar/Eldar and CSM/Daemons have some not -out-of-the-ordinary answers to gunlines. Just have the new guys do some research, watch more games as they paint up their armies and play eachother, and buy some answers to their Tau dominated meta.

Encourage them to play it out more and help them with some list building. Tau are super powerful and can easily demoralize people in the first couple of turns, only to lose later on in the game. Watch some of the battle reports from Frontline Gaming, you'll see recent games where it looks like the other player can't win, but slowly manages to get there.

Well, considering that all 3 are playing Sub PAr armies, each with an assault bent to them, its not exactly fair to put them against tau

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well, considering that all 3 are playing Sub PAr armies, each with an assault bent to them, its not exactly fair to put them against tau

I wouldn't call Deldar or Demons (with CSM) as sub-par armies, those combinations can actually be incredibly powerful and not just in a niche way.

As for Blood Angels, yea, they're pretty sub-par on their own, it might be good to get that player into doing a super friends style of thing with allying chapters so that the good parts of Blood Angels can shine. In the fluff the chapters often show up in groups anyway.

mercury14 wrote:
I'm frustrated here, though not nearly as frustrated as the three new players I'm trying to help get into 40k. They're playing Blood Angels, Dark Eldar/Eldar, and CSM/Demons... And every FLGS event I take them to, they're getting matched up vs Tau and give up turn one or two.

And I don't blame them, what they're seeing is point-click-remove. They're developing a sense of learned helplessness and now they're spending their money on Star Wars Armada instead of 40k. And we *need* new blood in our local group really badly. I'd like to hear from Tau players especially, what advice do you have for new players going up against Tau, especially when they don't get first turn?

To make matters worse, one of the most prolific Tau players in our group is almost as new as they are and an overall poor player but trounces them every time.

It just seems like it's really hard to help get new players enthusiastic when they have bad experiences like this.

We all hate Tau players. They keep saying their new codex is simply ''ok'' because they never face it. Encourage them to play against other factions a bit more casual. Then, whenever they get better, tell them to bring some invisible deathstars so they can beat that broken codex ? Seems like a good plan

Lots of questions, that's what I get for going to work!

1) The FLGS events I'm referring to are either small prizeless tournaments or "game days" where they give 40k players priority on the tables. People show up and more or less randomly get paired up against other players. There are door prizes, etc. The Tau and other lists aren't cutthroat (for Tau) but there's still usually a Riptide, broadsides, etc and there are markerlights. There are real tournaments there as well but they haven't played in them yet.

2) It's not really a matter of teaching them the rules. Sure they're in their learning curves but I don't think that's really the problem here.

3) The rest of the group is interested in new blood to the extent that if they ever scheduled a game vs a new player they'd play down. And that's actually happened. The problem is the players got a taste of real matches, even if they're not great lists.

4) Telling them that their armies suck and that's why they can't compete against Tau is a recipe to get them out of 40k in a heartbeat. But yes, the Dark Eldar/Eldar player's collection is 75% DE. He love the DE aesthetic and fluff... The only Eldar he has are 10x Dire Avengers, Rangers, a Wave Serpent, Fire Prism, and a Farseer on foot.

5) The Tau meta is gunline. These people just roll dice, very little hopping around. They don't deep strike Crisis suits, run the stealth stuff much, etc, they mostly line up and roll tons of dice that don't miss and don't allow saves.

Try doubles games with a newb and an experienced 'tutor' on each side. Not sure on how much use the tutor will be for trading experience if they are used to playing Taupolionics against each other, but at least it will balance the sides a little.

Also try mixing up army/board sizes and terrain density/types.

Worst comes to worst, have them play each other. If the csm / Daemons player is heavily biased towards csm then what is basically the bottom 3 armies should be reasonably balanced against each other.

Asking the tau guys to bring one of their other armies is also an option.

But basically, 40k really is at the point where if you have a bottom tier dex, you can't realistically play against the big 4 and have a chance at winning without heavy tailoring (sometimes not even with heavy tailoring)

mercury14 wrote:

5) The Tau meta is gunline. These people just roll dice, very little hopping around. They don't deep strike Crisis suits, run the stealth stuff much, etc, they mostly line up and roll tons of dice that don't miss and don't allow saves.

Use more Terrain!! And make sure that there's at least 2-3+ medium to large sized pieces that block line of sight. (typically, I prefer at least 1 LoS blocking piece of terrain per table quarter.)
I know it's popular to simply claim that "assault is dead" in 7th because the game is too shooty, but really, you need 40-50% terrain saturation on the table to properly play the game. Otherwise, yeah, shooting is king and gunlines own the world.

Stop playing against pure gunlines on Planet Bowling Ball and expecting things to not be 1000% in favour of the boring arsed gunlines!

They might as well see the writing on the wall early. There is ALWAYS going to be the new flavor of the month that kicks everybody's asses because it's the new hotness. They should get used to a time when their army is inevitably on the bottom of the rolling pile.


Or quit while the quitting is good, which sounds like what's happening.

Experiment 626 wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

5) The Tau meta is gunline. These people just roll dice, very little hopping around. They don't deep strike Crisis suits, run the stealth stuff much, etc, they mostly line up and roll tons of dice that don't miss and don't allow saves.

Use more Terrain!! And make sure that there's at least 2-3+ medium to large sized pieces that block line of sight. (typically, I prefer at least 1 LoS blocking piece of terrain per table quarter.)
I know it's popular to simply claim that "assault is dead" in 7th because the game is too shooty, but really, you need 40-50% terrain saturation on the table to properly play the game. Otherwise, yeah, shooting is king and gunlines own the world.

Stop playing against pure gunlines on Planet Bowling Ball and expecting things to not be 1000% in favour of the boring arsed gunlines!

The terrain is fine. In fact I'd almost say there's *too much* usually since they use a ton of ruins. It doesn't matter though because Tau easily ignore it while using it themselves. It just makes Tau better.

And while we play with some BLOS it doesn't matter if a unit or two are hidden because the rest of the army can still be killed. And smart missiles.

If they don't want to play because other armies are stronger, and if your FLGS isn't willing to change to help make things easier for new players, then you need to face the very real possibility that either 40k isn't for them, or the people at your FLGS are not as friendly and inviting as they think they are.

mercury14 wrote:


4) Telling them that their armies suck and that's why they can't compete against Tau is a recipe to get them out of 40k in a heartbeat. But yes, the Dark Eldar/Eldar player's collection is 75% DE. He love the DE aesthetic and fluff... The only Eldar he has are 10x Dire Avengers, Rangers, a Wave Serpent, Fire Prism, and a Farseer on foot.

5) The Tau meta is gunline. These people just roll dice, very little hopping around. They don't deep strike Crisis suits, run the stealth stuff much, etc, they mostly line up and roll tons of dice that don't miss and don't allow saves.

Give us a rundown on the units they have. are they a hodge podge of just units they like or are they effective units?

Never, ever let new players go above 500 points. They need to have at least half a dozen games under their belt before moving on. Also never let them face flyer shenanigans or LoWs. I know this isn't exactly pickup friendly, but the alternative is being completely stomped into the ground.

40k is most susceptable to force multipliers and so the larger the force, the harder the game is. The lower point limits also help balance the game somewhat, as you meet a lot less spam and much of the OP units are large kits (which, to no one's surprise, is because GW wants you to buy the large kits so those are the most powerful models).

Also, just play annhilation (or whatever it's called now). The very basics of the game is to move, shoot and punch. VPs and all that shenanigans can come later when these have become second nature. You should be able to instantly tell what dice roll you need for every step when I say "Space Marine VS Scatbike in melee" before moving on.

They've played plenty of lower point games against each other, against me, and against another guy. But they also want to show up at events because they're friends with several of the people there and they have at least 2K points of models and want to play them.

I think their grasp of the rules is decent as well, the bigger issue is not knowing other codexes.

If they have models, and a few games under their belt so they know the rules, send them here. Get them to post up their lists and frequent opponents over in the army list section and let us help them tweak their lists.

We don’t bite. Much.

Or you could simply ask the tau players to play nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Our local tau player is one of the greatest guys around and will gladly pick a less optimum list in order to have a fun game instead of a massacre

Probably more constructive to have them play against relaxed veterans with fun lists to learn the rules, followed by a small tournament amongst themselves.

That way they are either learning or putting those rules into practise against similar skill levels.


Pitching the newbies with their forces (chosen because of the rule of cool in their sparkly eyes) to be sodomised by Tau vets is a quick way for most people to give up. Only a very few would become stubborn and rise to the challenge... probably by scrapping their force and buying a full Tau or Eldar army, and thus, a new tfg is born

But there's no problem c:tau. None at all. Nothing to see here.