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This isn't another codex fix, more a general idea from expanding Chaos as a faction without just making copies of each other.

Chaos Spacemarines becomes just Traitors and Renegades - Iron warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Black Legions, Alpha Legion and Renegades (post Heresy fallen) - no cult troops and limited marks but with a new Super Heavy (eg Fellblade)
.
Daemons - as they are though maybe add a few more undivided beasts eg a Gulton Beast.

Daemonkin - Legion of the god (eg World Eaters for Khorne) - add a specific daemon engine/unit (eg Blight Drones for Nurgle) and mutated beast (eg add vortex beast for Tzeentch) and a Super heavy (eg Slaanesh Hell knights from Epic)

The lost and the Damned - human traitors and mutants as a full force, not just having to "count as" from Imperial Guard.

Dark Mechanicus - slaves and daemon engines

How would you expand these chaos without overly duplicating units between them?

Put them all in one codex with sub-factions unlocking certain numbers of different unit entries?

Honestly, I would prefer a generic "scum humans" army supplement (among other similar stuff, ex. Kroot mercs) that could be plugged into most any other codex in the game without relying on Ally shenanigans. Something that lets you represent everything from Diggas/Von Strab's Honor Guard (the old 3rd War for Armageddon website excerpt for the Jopall Indentured Troopers describes how they impersonated troopers from Von Strab's private army in order to provide a Big Mek with several booby-trapped Basilisks), Gue'Vesa, Genestealer Cultists, or levied PDF ala the Badab War. This would separate the Mutants, Renegades, Desperadoes, Junk Tanks, etc.

Otherwise, I would honestly prefer to see Chaos and Daemons re-merged a bit. Merge the Soulgrinder/Defiler into a generic "Daemonforged Besieger" Merge the entries for the Blight Drone, Heldrake, Heltalon, etc, into a generic super-customizable Daemonforged Flyer", etc.

Merge "Mark of", "Daemon of", "Dedicated to", "Covenant of", etc into "Allegiance to", rules, that work the same regardless of unit types. So models with "Allegiance to Slaanesh" move an extra 2" whenever allowed to move, models with Allegiance to Khorne get +1 WS/BS, etc.

One problem the Daemon codex had when it first came out in 4th edition, was that it had lots of different units that did the exact same thing; they all Deep Striked in, threatened to overwhelm models in melee, but 5th ed vehicle rules meant if you circled your army with a Rhino laager, you were basically able to make the battle super one-dimensional for your foe. Other than Tzeench Heralds on Chariots, or Soulgrinders, they had no ranged AT. No transports. No dedicated tank destroyers, etc.

After the initial novelty of Fatecrusher wore off (all it took was a single rifle Dreadnought to lock a Bloodcrusher unit in a fight), the serious Daemon lists moved towards massed Fiends, and choice of Flesh Hounds or Screamers.

The core Daemons can use real work to be made distinct, beyond "funky special rules and random charts." Nobody cares that a Fiend of Slaanesh causes a -1 penalty to Psyker Leadership, when their role as a Hit&Run harasser has been otherwise gutted. Nobody bothers with Warpflame, except to finish off otherwise-wounded units; Horrors are just part of the Summon Factory shtick.

Give Daemons some ranged weapons. Be it Bloodletters with skullsplitter throwing axes, Plaguebearers with wax heads or vomiting out a cloud of flies, it matters little. Give them "Transport-Equivalents;" Make portalglyphs a Dedicated Transport, akin to a Drop Pod that can reinforce their parent units. Give them real depth of play, and breadth of army building, other than "I have Fateweaver, a Grimoire, and Deathstar flavor of choice." Rework rules around (Make the Hellflayer actually able to Tank Shock stuff perhaps?), and make Warpflame a "Utility" option, rather than "hurr, hurr, I make my enemies tougher."

 MagicJuggler wrote:

...
The core Daemons can use real work to be made distinct, beyond "funky special rules and random charts." Nobody cares that a Fiend of Slaanesh causes a -1 penalty to Psyker Leadership, when their role as a Hit&Run harasser has been otherwise gutted. Nobody bothers with Warpflame, except to finish off otherwise-wounded units; Horrors are just part of the Summon Factory shtick.
...

This was the biggest missed opportunity GW had with the update. All the 6th edition rules that deaemons had could have been updated. The daemonic incursion formations are a bit of a bummer, but the relics and warlord traits are fancy enough to make me happy.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Give Daemons some ranged weapons. Be it Bloodletters with skullsplitter throwing axes, Plaguebearers with wax heads or vomiting out a cloud of flies, it matters little. Give them "Transport-Equivalents;" Make portalglyphs a Dedicated Transport, akin to a Drop Pod that can reinforce their parent units. Give them real depth of play, and breadth of army building, other than "I have Fateweaver, a Grimoire, and Deathstar flavor of choice." Rework rules around (Make the Hellflayer actually able to Tank Shock stuff perhaps?), and make Warpflame a "Utility" option, rather than "hurr, hurr, I make my enemies tougher."

All of this, Warpflame needs to be sent to where the Emperor sent Horus. Give me back my old Pink Horrors!! Also, we need more Daemons, FFG has expanded on this. Theres cool swarms, Charnel Daemons, Hate Daemons, Chaos Furies that dont suck, Krackens. Seriously, i would love to see a Kracken in actual play.

On a more useful note i had this idea recently: Chaos gets multiple Codexes.

Full Codexes:
Chaos Undivided: This is the old school 3rd ed book, Daemons and Chaos Marines working together, with some Lost and the Damned support, how you run Word Bearers, Black Legion and Iron Warriors
Khorne Daemonkin:A somewhat improved version of the current one, also how you run World Eaters
Slaaneshi Pleasure Circles: Emperors Children
Nurgle Plague Cults: Death Guard
Tzeentch Cabals: Thousand Sons

So this has 7 of the 9 Legions, so Alpha Legion and the Nightlords would get their own Codex Supplements as would The Lost and the Damned and Renegade Space Marines. Though the Renegade Space Marines could probably just be ran using the Nightlord's rules as they dont really use a ton of Chaos stuff.

The best way to fix Chaos;

Make them a clone of C:SM. Same cost for same unit equivilent. Ie, Captain and Chaos Lord, with same stats, options, with an upgrade to W4 and A4. Rules should be the same or an equally useful skill. For example, Chaos Lord might get their own version of ATSKNF, that allows CSM (not Cultists) to automatically regroup. And instead of a Relic Blade they could have a Daemon Weapon, which is Str User, AP 2 and has the Daemon Weapon special rule.
Give Chaos Lords the ability to upgrade to "Exhaulted Chaos Lord" or something that is identical to a chapter master.


Chaos Warband traits because everyone wants them

Black Legion: 3 doctrines a la Ultramarines, granting different abilities such as army-wide rerolls or special rules

World Eaters: Every unit gains Furious Charge and can assault after running. Units that already have Furious Charge gain +2 strength instead.

Death Guard: Feel No Pain (6+) and IWND

Emperor's Children: Army-wide buffs like Hatred: Iron hands, Preferred Enemy: Eldar, etc

Thousand Sons: Can give characters +1 mastery level. Army wide fearless. Hatred Space Wolves

Night Lords: Fear, Crusader, Infilitrate and Scout

Alpha Legion: After deployment, redeploy D3 units, Night Fighting in effect Turn 1 for enemy only

Word Bearers: Choose 1 enemy unit, it must take morale test, if it fails it becomes your unit for all purposes starting on your first turn, for 1 full game turn

Iron Warriors: Bolter Drill, and Havocs, Obliterators, Mutilators, and Daemon Engines gain Tank Hunters.

 Deadshot wrote:
The best way to fix Chaos;

Make them a clone of C:SM. Same cost for same unit equivilent. Ie, Captain and Chaos Lord, with same stats, options, with an upgrade to W4 and A4. Rules should be the same or an equally useful skill. For example, Chaos Lord might get their own version of ATSKNF, that allows CSM (not Cultists) to automatically regroup. And instead of a Relic Blade they could have a Daemon Weapon, which is Str User, AP 2 and has the Daemon Weapon special rule.
Give Chaos Lords the ability to upgrade to "Exhaulted Chaos Lord" or something that is identical to a chapter master.

I don't want to just be a god damned "spiky marines clone"! That's half the problem right now with Chaos, is that we're literally just 'Loyalists -10 but with spikes' in every single way.

Frankly, the 'Chaos Lord' entry should our equivalent to a Chapter Master (W4 character). However, he should be noticeably skewed towards being a melee specialist, such as having +1WS and much better close combat options as compared to a Chapter Master.
Instead, the basic W3/A3 character would be the Exalted Champion, just as there was the Lord vs. Lieutenant back in the 3.5 codex days.

In place of the Loyalists 'Special Equipment' section, Chaos should just have the bare minimum basics, (Melta bombs + Jump Pack + Bike options), and instead regain our 'Gifts & Mutations' section.
And in a proper 'Relics of the Gods' for each of the 4 powers, plus a basic generic list that gives a relic themed to each of the Undivided Legions.

And finish off by finally bringing our entire ****ing model range into modern times, since we're still rooted firmly in 3rd bloody edition!!

 Deadshot wrote:
Chaos Warband traits because everyone wants them

Black Legion: 3 doctrines a la Ultramarines, granting different abilities such as army-wide rerolls or special rules

World Eaters: Every unit gains Furious Charge and can assault after running. Units that already have Furious Charge gain +2 strength instead.

Death Guard: Feel No Pain (6+) and IWND

Emperor's Children: Army-wide buffs like Hatred: Iron hands, Preferred Enemy: Eldar, etc

Thousand Sons: Can give characters +1 mastery level. Army wide fearless. Hatred Space Wolves

Night Lords: Fear, Crusader, Infilitrate and Scout

Alpha Legion: After deployment, redeploy D3 units, Night Fighting in effect Turn 1 for enemy only

Word Bearers: Choose 1 enemy unit, it must take morale test, if it fails it becomes your unit for all purposes starting on your first turn, for 1 full game turn

Iron Warriors: Bolter Drill, and Havocs, Obliterators, Mutilators, and Daemon Engines gain Tank Hunters.

- Black Legion: Crusader, Hatred: IoM, Chosen gain Obsec, 'Tip of the Spear' - a special Termie Deep Strike assault ability.
- Word Bearers: Dark Apostles can be upgraded with +1W, a similar rule to the new Daemon ability to taint objectives, Sorcerers can use Malefic Daemonology without penalty, new Demagogue skill.
- Iron Warriors: Chaos Marines, Havocs, Chosen, Termies & Oblits gain Tank Hunter, 6+ FnP, Warpsmiths can be upgraded with +1W.
- Night Lords: Fear, Night Fighting bonus, Stealth.
- Alpha Legion: Infiltrate, Scout, PE: Space Marines.
- Red Corsairs: ???
- Crimson Slaughter: Fear, Possessed as Troops, Hatred: Dark Angels, Adamantium Will.

The Marked Legions really don't need their own 'Legion Tactics', since you get enough of a theme by simply sticking to the appropriate Cult unit + Mark/support choices... (and we need to accept that Cult Termies are NEVER! coming back, as GW won't ever produce models for them.)

Thousand Sons for example be done perfectly fine by taking say the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers 'tactics', and then just sticking to Sorcs, 1kSons units, Termies/Possessed/vehicles with MoT/Daemon Tzeentch. Likewise, a World Eaters army could be done with Crimson Slaughter tactics, and keeping to lots of Berserkers & Khorne marked units, while taking 0 Sorcerers/psychic allies.
Fluffy rules for the individual Cults units, such as PE: Eldar for Slaanesh would just be baked into the Noise Marine unit itself.

Then give us a re-giggled Daemon codex that fixes the few glaring issues there, (looking at you Pink Horrors!), and give us (finally!) a proper codex for Lost and the Damned so we can properl run Traitor Guard, Mutant hordes & Dark Mech without having to shell out/deal with Forgeworld issues.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The best way to fix Chaos;

Make them a clone of C:SM. Same cost for same unit equivilent. Ie, Captain and Chaos Lord, with same stats, options, with an upgrade to W4 and A4. Rules should be the same or an equally useful skill. For example, Chaos Lord might get their own version of ATSKNF, that allows CSM (not Cultists) to automatically regroup. And instead of a Relic Blade they could have a Daemon Weapon, which is Str User, AP 2 and has the Daemon Weapon special rule.
Give Chaos Lords the ability to upgrade to "Exhaulted Chaos Lord" or something that is identical to a chapter master.

I don't want to just be a god damned "spiky marines clone"! That's half the problem right now with Chaos, is that we're literally just 'Loyalists -10 but with spikes' in every single way.

Frankly, the 'Chaos Lord' entry should our equivalent to a Chapter Master (W4 character). However, he should be noticeably skewed towards being a melee specialist, such as having +1WS and much better close combat options as compared to a Chapter Master.
Instead, the basic W3/A3 character would be the Exalted Champion, just as there was the Lord vs. Lieutenant back in the 3.5 codex days.

In place of the Loyalists 'Special Equipment' section, Chaos should just have the bare minimum basics, (Melta bombs + Jump Pack + Bike options), and instead regain our 'Gifts & Mutations' section.
And in a proper 'Relics of the Gods' for each of the 4 powers, plus a basic generic list that gives a relic themed to each of the Undivided Legions.

And finish off by finally bringing our entire ****ing model range into modern times, since we're still rooted firmly in 3rd bloody edition!!

 Deadshot wrote:
Chaos Warband traits because everyone wants them

Black Legion: 3 doctrines a la Ultramarines, granting different abilities such as army-wide rerolls or special rules

World Eaters: Every unit gains Furious Charge and can assault after running. Units that already have Furious Charge gain +2 strength instead.

Death Guard: Feel No Pain (6+) and IWND

Emperor's Children: Army-wide buffs like Hatred: Iron hands, Preferred Enemy: Eldar, etc

Thousand Sons: Can give characters +1 mastery level. Army wide fearless. Hatred Space Wolves

Night Lords: Fear, Crusader, Infilitrate and Scout

Alpha Legion: After deployment, redeploy D3 units, Night Fighting in effect Turn 1 for enemy only

Word Bearers: Choose 1 enemy unit, it must take morale test, if it fails it becomes your unit for all purposes starting on your first turn, for 1 full game turn

Iron Warriors: Bolter Drill, and Havocs, Obliterators, Mutilators, and Daemon Engines gain Tank Hunters.

- Black Legion: Crusader, Hatred: IoM, Chosen gain Obsec, 'Tip of the Spear' - a special Termie Deep Strike assault ability.
- Word Bearers: Dark Apostles can be upgraded with +1W, a similar rule to the new Daemon ability to taint objectives, Sorcerers can use Malefic Daemonology without penalty, new Demagogue skill.
- Iron Warriors: Chaos Marines, Havocs, Chosen, Termies & Oblits gain Tank Hunter, 6+ FnP, Warpsmiths can be upgraded with +1W.
- Night Lords: Fear, Night Fighting bonus, Stealth.
- Alpha Legion: Infiltrate, Scout, PE: Space Marines.
- Red Corsairs: ???
- Crimson Slaughter: Fear, Possessed as Troops, Hatred: Dark Angels, Adamantium Will.

The Marked Legions really don't need their own 'Legion Tactics', since you get enough of a theme by simply sticking to the appropriate Cult unit + Mark/support choices... (and we need to accept that Cult Termies are NEVER! coming back, as GW won't ever produce models for them.)

Thousand Sons for example be done perfectly fine by taking say the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers 'tactics', and then just sticking to Sorcs, 1kSons units, Termies/Possessed/vehicles with MoT/Daemon Tzeentch. Likewise, a World Eaters army could be done with Crimson Slaughter tactics, and keeping to lots of Berserkers & Khorne marked units, while taking 0 Sorcerers/psychic allies.
Fluffy rules for the individual Cults units, such as PE: Eldar for Slaanesh would just be baked into the Noise Marine unit itself.

Then give us a re-giggled Daemon codex that fixes the few glaring issues there, (looking at you Pink Horrors!), and give us (finally!) a proper codex for Lost and the Damned so we can properl run Traitor Guard, Mutant hordes & Dark Mech without having to shell out/deal with Forgeworld issues.

Guess what? CSM are Loyalist clones, -1. These propsed changes? Makes them Loyalist clones +1. Ie, each Loyalist unit has a unit of equivilent power in the CSM codex, then a few more added on such as Cult troops, Daemon Engines, Daemon Princes, etc. If you don't want to play evil Marines, don't play evil Marines, but don't try to pretend that Chaos Marines are anything except Marines that went Dark Side and grew spikes. They should have equal rules. Not the same, but equal.

Call it what you will, Lord, Exhaulted Lord, etc, not important.

Also, in keeping with Chapter Tactics I tried to limit to 1 or 2 rules. Some of your suggestions have multiple. Like Iron Warriors have better version of Imperial Fists tactics AND Iron hands' 6+ FNP.

My proposal to merge CSM amd Daemons

Special Formation: After Life

rules: When a unit of Thousand Sons are removed as ccasualties; make a leadership test, if failed do nothing, if passed, immediately deepstrike a minimum unit of pink horrors orinating from the last model removed. Roll 1d6 for scatter. Do the same for Plague Marines with Plague Bearers, Khorne Beserkers with Blood Letters, Noise Marines with Daemonettes. Any Cult Marines in the troops slot and their Afterlife Daemons gain objective secured.

Requirements
1-2 HQ with any Mark (Lord: MoN, MoK, MoS)(Sorc: MoT)
4-6 Troops of Either; Thousand Sons, Khorne Beserkers, Plague marines, Noise marines; (excludes basic marines or cultist mark of x) (must have corresponding Lord or Sorcerer with matching marks)

Cult Marines in elite slot can gain the Afterlife Benifits. But do not gain objective secured.

Yes I am aware, 5 dead khorne Berserkerz = 10 new blood letters but lets just say their souls spawn 2 daemons each...

Additional benefits
Defiler: Any defiler that gets wrecked but not explodes has a d6 chance to respawn as a soul grinder on a 5+.

The HQ: Any of the IC such as Ahriman, Typhus, Kharn, Lucius or Lord or Sorcerer with Mark of X: When the last wound is removed, Roll a d6. On a 4+ Immediately replace with a Daemon Prince with same alignment. On a roll of 1,2,3 replace the model with a spawn with matching mark.

The designer notes in the 2nd edition Codex: Chaos shed a lot of light on why Chaos focused on Marines at the time; the Rogue Trader books for Chaos were massive undertakings, but despite that, there was a lot of copypaste. There were separate armylists for the Chaos Gods, with mostly identical entries. Sure, the Emperor's Children could take Apothecaries, but otherwise, a lot of it was filler. Add the disparate model selections available, and it was too easy to build an army that was unfocused in appearance, and purpose.

Besides than making the Horus Heresy the central part of the plot, rather than "Chaos is as Chaos Does", the intent was to show that the Chaos Marines were not all completely "hapless pawns" with "chaos made me do it" written on it, but self-determined individuals with their own individual vendettas, aspirations, dreams of empire-building, etc. It was also decided, that rather than making them "Loyalists +1", to make them renegades with old, poorly-maintained equipment from Heresy past, that traded controlled progress (even if the Imperium advances in technology at a snail's pace) for unpredictable power.

The best example of this was Plasma. The fluff mentions how the Admech eventually developed firing limiters for plasma weapons, and eventually the Imperium accepted the reduction in firepower in exchange for not losing their most experienced soldiers to malfunctioning technology, but the Traitors cared nothing about such basics like weapon safety. In game terms, Chaos plasma weapons could fire every turn instead of every other turn, but they were subject to a Gets Hot chart. Quite literally, the Gets Hot! Universal Special rule started off as a special rule specifically for plasma weapons wielded by Chaos Marines.

"Chapter Tactics" is a lazy fix by the way.

Split Chaos into three distinct codexes.

Codex: Traitoris Maximus. This codex would contain rules for the Black Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion. Includes special rules for these legions and formations as well as individual Artifacts and full roster.

Codex: Cult Legions: This codex would contain rules for Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters and the Thousand Sons. Includes special rules for these legions and formations as well as individual Artifacts and full roster.

Codex: Lost and the Damned: This codex would contain rules for Renegades and Heretics like the Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter, Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Guard armies etc. Includes special rules for these Warbands and formations as well as individual Artifacts and full roster.

All of these armies would be able to ally with each other including Chaos Daemons and have specific rules that allow them to work with each other more efficiently on the battlefield.

I would love to see 40k get a 30k treatment for design philosophy.

1 large codex with chaos marines and demons and dark cult mech.

Have choosing an army allow/disallow certain entries and allow for certain specific characters. With Rights of War having further restrictions and boosting certain styles of play along with restrictions.

Have all the dark mech, certain demon princes, and a smathering of generic units fall under "Agents of Chaos" that can be used by any army as part of any FOC.