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I play Word Bearers vs. the Ork codex pretty frequently, and until recently have been holding my own, however my opponent has altered his strategy from less toys to more boys, and I've been losing pretty bad against him lately. This is how he plays Orks: Maxed out squads of Boyz with Power Klaws in there. In front of these units are like 2 or 3 Killa Kanz for cover. He runs a couple units of Koptas with the TL S8AP3 missile, and maybe a buzzsaw in there. Loads a Battlewagon with Meganobz all with PowerClaws. Loads another transport with Big Shootas. And a Dakkajet or 2 in reserve. All the infantry rushes forward behind cover with the Battlewagon, the Koptas potshot and/or charge weak combat units on the flanks. The Big Shoota transport stays in the back and shoots dakka. And Dakkajets come in or don't, and do good or don't. I assume a defensive posture, use cover, perform fallback maneuvers, and take a whole lot of models off the table, but his army is so numerous in models compared to mine, and its hits so quick, I'm getting overrun.

Anyone have any general Crusade Army List advice on how to fare a little better against this type of Ork army, what kind of units work well, etc?

What points you playing mate?

We just hit 2750. That's how much of my own Legion stuff I have painted. He can match whatever points I can put on the table, for sure, and doesn't mind bigger games than that.

Legion quad guns should work.

Some of the obvious culprits: Fire Raptor, Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two Kheres pattern assault cannons, Quad guns, Legion Heavy Support squads with Autocannons or missile launchers.

By the way, as a good starting point, what are you using in your force?

 jasper76 wrote:
We just hit 2750. That's how much of my own Legion stuff I have painted. He can match whatever points I can put on the table, for sure, and doesn't mind bigger games than that.

Against Orks it's fairly simple.

Legion support squad, volkite calivers, between high Str and rof, the volkite rule will wipe whole mobs out a turn easily

Heavy support squads with lascannon, 1 7 man team will easily kill a battlewagon.

Gal vorbak, take tainted weapons on your dark martyr, rending instant death will even threaten his Warboss.

Mhara gal, forces ld and blind tests, both are things orks don't like, it is also a very nasty combat monster, he will need 5+ to hit it with his entire army.

Sicarions, fast, 9 hb shot and 6 auto cannon rend shots, lots of dead orks, also ignores his jink.

Tactical squads and fury of the Legion, take a 15 man squad, hit him as soon as he is in 24, 30 bolters will dent even his mega nobs.

Legion forces are actually very well suited to curb stomping orks, very one sided infact at 2k + if you have the right kit.

ok, this conversation is going the wrong way. the Orks are bringing more boyz and beating you, so take note and follow suit. how many tactical marines are you using now? what does your list generally look like? if we can get these, we can probably help better.

 combat engineer wrote:
Some of the obvious culprits: Fire Raptor, Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two Kheres pattern assault cannons, Quad guns, Legion Heavy Support squads with Autocannons or missile launchers.

By the way, as a good starting point, what are you using in your force?

Hence the above...

moritat with 2 volkite serpentas. S5 AP 5 with deflagrate, roll until you miss.

Volkite my friend. Take them in 10 man support squads and watch Boy mobs vanish.

ok, this conversation is going the wrong way. the Orks are bringing more boyz and beating you, so take note and follow suit. how many tactical marines are you using now? what does your list generally look like? if we can get these, we can probably help better.

Indeed. The boyz, at least, will struggle against an equal points value of bolter-and-blade astartes. Or should. Fury Of The Legion is amazing.

The problem with Volkite fire is that it sounds like you'd need to blow the battlewagon and killa kanz out of the way first.
More importantly, you've got to deal with them or they'll open up a hole - and massed bolt rounds and chainblades Won't stop Mega Armour, and that can wreck a squad in a turn without caring much what it is.

Mara Ghal are good - as noted, its special rules are likely to reduce orks to needing '6's to hit. It'll go through boyz mobs with ease... more importantly, it'll go through Killa Kanz easily too - they'll need 6's to hit, 6's to hurt it.....Keep it away from the Mega Armour, though.

The weakness is it getting sniped by rokkits from deff koptas - it's too expensive to lose. Try to keep line of sight to its rear armour blocked - as long as he's being hit in an AV14 facing, he should be fine.



I'd personally suggest quad guns as good - as long as you have both frag and shatter shells, you can rip up walkers or infantry as the mood takes you.


Also, one of the nastiest things you could consider - You can, if you're not feeling 'nice' fit a pair of Typhon Siege Tanks in a Lord Of War War Machine Detachment.

If kans and battlewagon are the problem, sicarions for fast movement to get around the sides, doredo dreads for planking side armour too, they will also shred the kans with sunder, Las heavy support team with siege breaker? For tank hunter, pride of the Legion, dual heavy bolter and sniper, or fearless to tarpitted for a turn or 2, while you counter charge.

Mhara gal, needs 5+ to hit with most of his army, 6+ if against was 2, av13 on the front and a 5++ should keep it moving, also consider taking some expendable deamon Allies as speed bumps

Thanks for the replies so far. Regarding my army contents, that would be helpful, right ? I'll list what I have table-ready, then what I have, but have not yet modeled and/or painted. I don't really have much beyond infantry at this point ready to go.

Table-Ready:

HQ: Erebeus, multi-use Centurion
Compulsory Troops: 2 Full Tac Squads.
Support Troops: 1 Plasma Squad, 1 Flamer Squad, 1 Sniper Squad
Elites: 1 Gal Vorbak Squad, 2 Apothecaries
HS: 1 Missile Launcher Squad, 1 Lascannon Squad
DT: 2 Rhinos

On Deck to Paint:
HQ: Zar Layuk, Kor Phaeron, Praetor
Cumpulsory Troops: 1 Full Assault Squad
Elites: 1 Destroyer Squad, Mhara Gal Dred, BAC Contemptor Dred, and lots of Terminators I could use
LoW: Lorgar Transfigured
DT: 2 LRs
Allied Daemons = Lord of Change, 20 Pink Horrors, 1 Flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch

I also have 30 Marines from BaC i haven;t figured out what to do with. I got the bits to make a Meltagun Squad, Multimelta Squad, Heavy Bolter squad (or convert those to Autocannons) and/or Plasma Cannon Squad, but not sure these are too appealing as options for these models to me atm.

I'd suggest getting some vehicles to bolster your forces. A fire raptor or a sicaran will probably do wonders for you against an ork horde!

 Yack Maniels wrote:
I'd suggest getting some vehicles to bolster your forces. A fire raptor or a sicaran will probably do wonders for you against an ork horde!

how would a sicarian help against orks? It shines against skimmers, and can other wise be replaced by cheaper, stronger, sturdier options. Sometimes, the solution to a problem is NOT the stereotype option.

to OP:

you shouldn't need the snipers or plasma vs. orcs really, tha galvorbak and apothecaries are good options as is the ML squad. maybe an autocannon squad to put out those 20 higher strength shots to start mowing out boys and light vehicles, the lascannons are really expensive though they have their uses. the assault squad currently costs 500 points for a 20 man squad, so hold off on them untill the legion list gets updated (they are said to be getting a price decrease) start pumping up your terminators, and letting him walk up to you, taking shooting the entire time.

your list should be good enough to take most orc options, so maybe it's missions/deployment?

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Yack Maniels wrote:
I'd suggest getting some vehicles to bolster your forces. A fire raptor or a sicaran will probably do wonders for you against an ork horde!

how would a sicarian help against orks? It shines against skimmers, and can other wise be replaced by cheaper, stronger, sturdier options. Sometimes, the solution to a problem is NOT the stereotype option.

Just for what it's worth a Sicaran is worth more than it's "anti jink" main gun. That gun has the ability to punch through most ork armored units in a reliable fashion. And on top of that it's putting out a rash of heavy bolter rounds, which likewise turn Orks to mush.

Can you get the same from other units sure. A.couple different Rapier teams put out that firepower but you're looking for equivalent points too.

But if you wanna play fast and a little reckless with your armor a trio of Predator Infernus with the Flamestorm/heavy flamer sponsons are going to roast Orks.

Or there's the Executioner.

But. If you want to take a lot of his Orks out of the fight early all I can do is suggest what I have used against Orks and IG as Imperial Army Regulars.

Please keep in mind I play Imperial Fists, so fluff choices will conflict.

HQ is always either a Seige Breaker or Master of Signal centurion
2 maxed Out tactical Squads
A unit of 2-3 Rapier Quad Launchers.
Artillery Tank Squadron with a pair of legion Medusas
2 maxed Out tactical Support squads with volkite calivers
And insert choice of aircraft (I use either a Xyphon or Fire raptor)

It's a very defend and hold list (ie.. Fists..) But it gets the job done keeping the masses off my fortress walls

sicarian with Heavy Bolter Sponsons has become a staple in alot of my lists. It's Reding Heavy 4 twin-Autocannon will make short ork of the kanz, and the bolters help for when you need to start shooting infantry in a pinch.

I feel you have to many support troops. I would drop other the plasma squad or the sniper squad for another full-tac squad. Also if you haven't, give your tac squad buy them the CCW. haveing Bolter/pistol/CCW on 20 dudes makes a soild troop choice that can put out a punishing amount of bolter fire, and can throw out a sickening amount of attacked in CC.

 Lockark wrote:
sicarian with Heavy Bolter Sponsons has become a staple in alot of my lists. It's Reding Heavy 4 twin-Autocannon will make short ork of the kanz, and the bolters help for when you need to start shooting infantry in a pinch.

??? Last I checked, the accelerator autocannon on the Sicaran was Heavy 6 — did I miss a FAQ/erratum?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
sicarian with Heavy Bolter Sponsons has become a staple in alot of my lists. It's Reding Heavy 4 twin-Autocannon will make short ork of the kanz, and the bolters help for when you need to start shooting infantry in a pinch.

??? Last I checked, the accelerator autocannon on the Sicaran was Heavy 6 — did I miss a FAQ/erratum?

Still the same Heavy 6 it always was with the additionadditional niceties that come with it. Nothings changed.

I apparently have been nerfing my sicarian for the last two years.

Yeah, it's regular predators that get 4 shots in 30k

What I don't get is why the Sicaran is the only thing with Accelerator Autocannon… they'd make excellent point defences for Titans and other large war machines, not to mention how cool a deredeo would look wth a TL pair.

 Lockark wrote:
Also if you haven't, give your tac squad buy them the CCW. haveing Bolter/pistol/CCW on 20 dudes makes a soild troop choice that can put out a punishing amount of bolter fire, and can throw out a sickening amount of attacked in CC.

Yeah, I use added CCWs on my Tac Squads. Works out well with Dark Channeling and/or Zealot from the HQ.