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People, companies, and even governments are constantly looking for better ways to secure personal information, prevent ID theft, and streamline the process of crossing borders and engaging in commerce. The United States has certainly lagged behind Europe and Asia in adopting those little RFID chips in credit/debit cards but even here progress continues. For us the debate is no longer about using RFID but whether to require a PIN in conjunction with it or not (shouldn't that be obvious?). Still, some countries are not satisfied with the status quo the way the US government is. For instance, Japan is pushing the envelope by moving away from RFID and investing in fingerprint authentication as a method of accessing personal identification, bank accounts, and even things like hotel reservations. The article below discusses the latest advance of using your fingerprint as a substitute for your ATM card.

While it seems more secure to use biometrics than cards or phones to conduct transactions, I wonder about the unintended consequences. How soon, if ever, will it be before there is a spike in tourists reporting getting their fingers cut off by thugs since they no longer have wallets to steal? Would requiring more and more personal information being uploaded into the Cloud be a risk the general public would be willing to take? And what about companies and government who would greatly desire to datamine those databases which have all your personal information? Would you be allowed to opt out? Or would you just have to live with it?

Convenience versus privacy. Which way is the right way to go?

http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0002859676

Fingerprints to be tested as ‘currency’



The Yomiuri Shimbun

Starting this summer, the government will test a system in which foreign tourists will be able to verify their identities and buy things at stores using only their fingerprints.

The government hopes to increase the number of foreign tourists by using the system to prevent crime and relieve users from the necessity of carrying cash or credit cards. It aims to realize the system by the 2020 Tokyo Olympic and Paralympic Games.

The experiment will have inbound tourists register their fingerprints and other data, such as credit card information, at airports and elsewhere.

Tourists would then be able to conduct tax exemption procedures and make purchases after verifying their identities by placing two fingers on special devices installed at stores.

The Inns and Hotels Law requires foreign tourists to show their passports when they check into ryokan inns or hotels.

The government plans to substitute fingerprint authentication for that requirement.

A total of 300 souvenir shops, restaurants, hotels and other establishments will participate in the experiment. They are located in areas that are popular among foreign tourists such as Hakone, Kamakura, Yugawara in Kanagawa Prefecture, and Atami in Shizuoka Prefecture.

The government plans to gradually expand the experiment by next spring, to cover areas including tourist sites in the Tohoku region and urban districts in Nagoya.

It hopes to realize the system throughout the country, including Tokyo, by 2020.

Introducing the system is part of the government’s efforts to increase the annual number of foreign tourists to 40 million by 2020.

It is also aiming to demonstrate the country’s advanced technology by having tourists use the system when they visit Japan for the Tokyo Olympics and Paralympics.

Data concerning how and where foreign tourists use the system will be managed by a consultative body led by the government, after the data is converted to anonymous big data.

After analyzing tourists’ movements and their spending habits, the data is expected to be utilized to devise policies on tourism and management strategies for the tourism industry.

However, there are concerns that tourists will be uneasy about providing personal information such as fingerprints.

The experiment will examine issues including how to protect one’s privacy and information management.

Attempts to put similar systems into practical use are under way at a bank and a theme park in Japan.

In October last year, the Huis Ten Bosch theme park in Sasebo, Nagasaki Prefecture, introduced on a trial basis a similar system in which visitors can make payments with just their fingerprints at about 30 stores and restaurants.

An official from the theme park said, “The system has been well received by customers, including those with children, since it saves them the trouble of taking their wallets out.”

By the end of this month at the earliest, Tokyo-based Aeon Bank will become the first bank in Japan to test a system in which customers will be able to withdraw cash from automatic teller machines using only fingerprints for identification and omitting the use of cash cards.

“The system is also superior in the area of security, such as preventing people from impersonating our customers,” an official from the bank said.

I am 100% for this. It will be more secure with eye scanners as well.

Once eye scans and fingerprint authentication is widespread, no one will need wallets anymore.

The biggest concern is who has access to the information, but it is easy for anyone to steal anyone else's identity anyway.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
The biggest concern is who has access to the information, but it is easy for anyone to steal anyone else's identity anyway.

Ironically, it would seem that identity theft would become more difficult with widespread adoption of biometrics. Unless 3d printers become so sophisticated that you can take a fingerprint scan and reproduce it.

That's handy (pun intended?), especially if you want to make sure you can be easily tracked.

Ironically, when I visited, Japan seemed quite backward when it came to payment methods; about the only method you could reasonably assume would be accepted was cash. It was even worse than going to the US.

Cant I just cut someones hand off? With out any password cant you wait by ATM smash them in the back of the head place there face by scanner cut fingers off and boom its mine? Take wait 4 minutea?

Aslo how easy would it be to say clean it let someone place finger on it place tape on there remove and obtain finger print? Place powder on print place plastic ontop and then use it as your own finger print being the same size as yours? Any places touched that leave finger prints could be a problem. Go into a public bathroom wash handle of door sit on the toilet pretend your pooping. Soon as someone touches the door quickly try and obtain finger print with talcum powder and tape.

Your fingerprint really wouldn't be "currency" though, so I don't know why they would even call it that.

It's just another form of authorizing payment and authenticating that you are the one that gave the authorization.

Just like writing out a check and signing it, or signing a credit card slip, or punching in your PIN, or waving your iPhone over the sensor.

OgreChubbs wrote:


Aslo how easy would it be to say clean it let someone place finger on it place tape on there remove and obtain finger print? Place powder on print place plastic ontop and then use it as your own finger print being the same size as yours? Any places touched that leave finger prints could be a problem. Go into a public bathroom wash handle of door sit on the toilet pretend your pooping. Soon as someone touches the door quickly try and obtain finger print with talcum powder and tape.

This is indeed a problem. Eye scan and fingerprint required would make the system much more solid.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Cant I just cut someones hand off? With out any password cant you wait by ATM smash them in the back of the head place there face by scanner cut fingers off and boom its mine? Take wait 4 minutea?

I don't know, couldn't you just threaten to cut someone's hand off if they didn't give you their credit card and pin number today? Couldn't you wait by the ATM for them to put in their card and the pin then smash them in the back of the head and withdraw all their money?

Your concerns are ridiculous.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Cant I just cut someones hand off? With out any password cant you wait by ATM smash them in the back of the head place there face by scanner cut fingers off and boom its mine? Take wait 4 minutea?

I don't know, couldn't you just threaten to cut someone's hand off if they didn't give you their credit card and pin number today? Couldn't you wait by the ATM for them to put in their card and the pin then smash them in the back of the head and withdraw all their money?

Your concerns are ridiculous.

They're hardly that. If someone threatens me with violence unless I hand over my wallet, I have the option to hand over my wallet and avoid the violence. A universal fingerprint database(disturbing enough in and of itself) and ubiquitous financial authentication using it, eventually to the point it would become the default and for many people only way to access their money, makes the violence inevitable because no sane criminal is going to threaten you then politely follow along while you walk to an ATM and give it your thumbprint, there's far too much risk you would call for help or attempt escape, they're just going to crack you on the head and cut your fething thumb off to use at their leisure.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Cant I just cut someones hand off? With out any password cant you wait by ATM smash them in the back of the head place there face by scanner cut fingers off and boom its mine? Take wait 4 minutea?

I don't know, couldn't you just threaten to cut someone's hand off if they didn't give you their credit card and pin number today? Couldn't you wait by the ATM for them to put in their card and the pin then smash them in the back of the head and withdraw all their money?

Your concerns are ridiculous.

They're hardly that. If someone threatens me with violence unless I hand over my wallet, I have the option to hand over my wallet and avoid the violence. A universal fingerprint database(disturbing enough in and of itself) and ubiquitous financial authentication using it, eventually to the point it would become the default and for many people only way to access their money, makes the violence inevitable because no sane criminal is going to threaten you then politely follow along while you walk to an ATM and give it your thumbprint, there's far too much risk you would call for help or attempt escape, they're just going to crack you on the head and cut your fething thumb off to use at their leisure.

exactly, you need them awake and concenting to get the pin number. You just need to cut someones thumb off toss them in a ditch to get their money this way.

Plus like he said threaten violence give them money and your cards your done. Knowing the only way they can rob you is by taking your finger when someone tries to rob you there is a hell of alot more at stake. Then there is the whole issue of people with out hands/arms.

Someone could do any of those and go max your credit and debit cards before anyone realizes what's happened. Assuming of course that there are more people willing to hack hands off than are willing to threaten people for wallets. This is some really bizarre what if-ing.

 LordofHats wrote:
Someone could do any of those and go max your credit and debit cards before anyone realizes what's happened. Assuming of course that there are more people willing to hack hands off than are willing to threaten people for wallets. This is some really bizarre what if-ing.

Not saying that but if 50% of the people willing to steal would go that far there is still a 500% increase in people getting hands cut off. Plus I can always sue for money back claim theft so on but I cant claim hand missing give me another it is kinda...gone

OgreChubbs wrote:
Not saying that but if 50% of the people willing to steal would go that far there is still a 500% increase in people getting hands cut off.

Math doesn't even remotely work that way.

 LordofHats wrote:
Someone could do any of those and go max your credit and debit cards before anyone realizes what's happened. Assuming of course that there are more people willing to hack hands off than are willing to threaten people for wallets. This is some really bizarre what if-ing.

While I agree that it's kinda way out in left field, I must point out that dopers going through bad DTs have been known to do far worse in pursuit of their "fix".

 LordofHats wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Not saying that but if 50% of the people willing to steal would go that far there is still a 500% increase in people getting hands cut off.

Math doesn't even remotely work that way.

yes it does cause right now there is 0% of thieves cutting hands off. So if one did it, it would be a 100% increase so if 50% do it , it is a 500% increase.

If we assume that half of criminals elect to amputate a hand in a mugging than otherwise would have happened that would be a 150% increase. A 500% increase implies that five times as many criminals are now doing this than what would have happened with traditional cards. Unless there is a sizable demographic that just can't wait for an excuse to mutilate folks I doubt that would occur. Equally, I doubt that many people would be willing to amputate folks when they could just demand other valuables like jewelry or electronics. Criminals tend to prefer the easier score.

(Editted for my slowed math skills )

While I agree that it's kinda way out in left field, I must point out that dopers going through bad DTs have been known to do far worse in pursuit of their "fix".

Agreed. All the reason to make 0 decision accounting for what dopers might do, because nothing we do is going to dissuade the really desperate from doing what they think they have to

For the rest of the world, crime operates like any other decision. A const benefit analysis. Raising the stakes to cutting off hands is a very high cost, not to mention the more practical side of wtf is the cashier doing ignoring the severed thumb someone just tried to use to pay for something? It's a lot easier to notice a severed hand than it is to notice that the credit card you were just hand doesn't belong to the person who handed it to you. Not to mention ATMs almost universally have cameras, not to mention most stores, making it a surefire way to get caught.

And now we get to the point that absolutely none of this is really knowable, and we're playing a game of "what ifs" where there is always another "what if" after the one that was just suggested making the entire line of discussion really frivolous.

First, this;

OgreChubbs wrote:

yes it does cause right now there is 0% of thieves

Is certainly false. Out there somewhere, someone has done this. Might even be doing it right now. Second;

So if one did it, it would be a 100% increase so if 50% do it , it is a 500% increase.

Math only works this way on Faux news. 0 does not become 50%, and 100%, and 500% by the power of righteous indignation and pulling numbers from thin air.

Besides which, don't people get shot and mutilated over money already? Why would a few incidents of amputations instigated by mad people be suddenly a huge issue?

Well I imagine they're a huge issue for the people missing a hand

But I think it's engaging the most bizarre brand of DOOOOOM calling to take this, and conclude it will result in an epidemic of behandings. Hell, for all I know it will, but it's really impossible to know that at this point.

Almost as if some country somewhere, maybe in the Pacific Ocean, off the coast of someplace line China, should experiment with the idea so we can observe what occurs in as controlled an environment as possible.. But that's just crazy talk

MEP's station is already using digital signatures
Picture
Finger Print

Contract signed. Its a damn pain in the arse

Because your finger print has to match your slap prints. Also your finger print will either expand or contract depending on the temp of your fingers and temp around you.
Its a HUGE pain in the

 Jihadin wrote:
MEP's station is already using digital signatures
Picture
Finger Print

Contract signed. Its a damn pain in the arse

Because your finger print has to match your slap prints. Also your finger print will either expand or contract depending on the temp of your fingers and temp around you.
Its a HUGE pain in the

Ya, i use a handprint for clocking out at work and sometimes it acts up and its a pain when it does. Im sure that the tech is solid, but i dont think its sensitive enough for this yet.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
MEP's station is already using digital signatures
Picture
Finger Print

Contract signed. Its a damn pain in the arse

Because your finger print has to match your slap prints. Also your finger print will either expand or contract depending on the temp of your fingers and temp around you.
Its a HUGE pain in the

Ya, i use a handprint for clocking out at work and sometimes it acts up and its a pain when it does. Im sure that the tech is solid, but i dont think its sensitive enough for this yet.

I know people who work at Hungry Jacks (Burger King in Australia but the foods even more deadly) who sign out with fingerscans and they are constantly having problems with the technology.
If its being forced into use on crappy fastfood joints, the rollout across everything else must be getting pretty damn close.

You don't need to cut off peoples hands to get their fingerprints in a usable form to fool scanners...

Japan experimenting is just a phase.

It's not that easy to amputate a hand or finger. This isn't Deadpool or Minority Report. Walking into a store to make a purchase with a dismembered hand/finger would raise some eyebrows, LOL.

There are easy ways around that as well. Continue to have a PIN, for example. Or have an infrared sensor within the scanning device. If the finger is not attached, it gets really cold, really fast. Not around body temperature? Failed scan.

That also being said, criminals will find a way one way or another, regardless of if they need a hand, a card, a computer, whatever. Fingerprints and eye scans are wholly unique. It's not a plastic card with a number on it.

Imagine going to a doctor's office and not having to fill out any paperwork. Or a bank. Or in an emergency the EMTs can scan your finger and get all the important information and potentially save your life. There are many more applications to this potential technology than just using it to get consumer goods.

The issue, as I see it, is that PINs can be changed and cards can be cancelled and replaced...what do you do when your retina/print gets hacked? (not hacked off...that's just silly)

 SilverMK2 wrote:
You don't need to cut off peoples hands to get their fingerprints in a usable form to fool scanners...

I mentioned that as an extreme case. More likely scenarios involve a scanner to read fingerprints off drink glasses, desks, or other such flat surfaces and then reproducing them in a way that can fool a different scanner.

I am very concerned by this, there are a lot of ramifications.

Using body parts as currency authentification all sounds well and good until you undersrtand what that means. I will pause here and let the assumptions sink in.........


.....Am I thinking about number of the beast? It did come to mind, and it is one reason why Christians want to avoid chip based biometrics, but that isnt it.

.....Am I thinking about peoples fingers being severed and taken to cash points rather than their wallets. Not really, though come to think about it, it doesnt sound nice.



No. The actual problem is that a cashless society can finally get rid of cash, and that is a BAD IDEA. Replacing cash with cards is one way 'forward' but a lot of people will want to keep using cash and avoid using cards. The new plan in Japan is far more insidious because its difficult to those who wish to avoid the obsolesence of cash to say - I want to keep using cash and avoid using fingers.
With cash replaceable by biody parts, especially by using something like fingerprints which have all the right sounding whys, they are simple to authenticate, they are hard to replicate or forge, they don't include subdermal chips placed *hollow voiceover* 'in the forehead or in the right hand so no man might trade lest he have the mark of the beast, let him who have understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, the number is six hundred and sixty six.' *Cue Iron Maiden* - seriously though, that would freak out a lot of people, and fingerprints bypass all that neatly.

The problem is that once cash is obsolete it can be abolished. Gone then is the privacy of using cash, this does mean it is harder for terrorists and drug dealers, but it also measn you have even less privacy than before and governments can tax you easier, even when they ought not to be able to tax you. Should you have to pay VAT when you sell your painted Tyranid army on an auction site. Hell no, its your Tyranid army, and you had taxes to pay when you biought it. But when you are paying by the finger and everyone is buying by the finger and everything goes through banking computers, everything is suddenly under the range of the various world wide revenue departments. And make no mistake, once a tax is feasible, it is very likely to happen.

Second and even more problematic is the adoption of negative interest rates. Because banks like to make their money, at anyone and everyone else's expense and find interest rates are an excellent way of controlling economies for them. Basnks want to keep interest rates low as their own actual charges are in separation to that, and it means they have to pay out less to those who have monies in deposit accounts. It all means more borrowing goes along. Now to cut a lot of economic short just stick with the basic principle for now that the lowest interest rate one can set is 0%. This is because if you set the interest rate any lower (ie the account holder is paying the bank interest for the privilege of holding their money there) they would remove the money. And if every bank set negative interest rates people would stick their money under the bed/in walk in deposit places in Switzerland etc. Cash always allows that option. There is more to it than that, but in a nutshell cash makes money mobile and has inherent value because the banknote is an IOU for a set amount. Read it, any banknote; any established nation. They all say more or less the same as - 'I promise to pay the bearer the sum of the value of this note.' It's an IOU. Your finger however is not an IOU, it can be used to a link to an electronic store of monetary value, but it isn't an IOU. So when negative interest rates come there is nothing you can do about it, because you cant take your finger off and put it in a different account, its stuck on your hand and registered to the Japanese (or whoever elses adopts this) banking system.

This is a huge can of wriggly worms.

I try to avoid big brother theory but.

1: you have everyones finger prints
2: cops can see a follow you as you move around, and anything can be taxed or billed.
3: as you travel and have a record the cops can use this information to follow you.
4: no more giving ,oney to those less fortunte because it will all be taxed. (Ie no more tiving money to loved ones with out a tax for usage of their system)

Rich get richer por get worse off and the lowest class die out.

 Orlanth wrote:
Am I thinking about number of the beast? It did come to mind, and it is one reason why Christians want to avoid chip based biometrics

In all fairness it isn't Christians that worry about this, but ill informed, stupid Christians that worry about this. It is a large group, don't lump them all together.