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So, on dakka forums, I've read the claim by Illuminini and Insaniak that multiple models in a unit can use grenades in a single assault phase.

So, today, when I was over at a friend's house today, I checked the rulebook.

In the grenade section, it clearly says that only one grenade may be thrown per unit per phase.

Is there something I'm missing that allows multiple grenades to be used per unit in close combat?

You don't throw grenades in close combat.

The "one thrown per phase" is also accounting for Overwatch

Grenades are thrown in the shooting phase. One per unit may be thrown.

Using grenades in CC is in the Assault phase.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You don't throw grenades in close combat.

The "one thrown per phase" is also accounting for Overwatch

It says that you can elect to use a grenade as a melee weapon, in which case you can substitute all of your attacks for a given model for a single attack using the grenade's profile.

It doesn't specifically say that you do or don't throw the grenade in the assault phase.

Pistols can be used as melee weapons. I'm assuming that you aren't using them as bludgeon weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Grenades are thrown in the shooting phase. One per unit may be thrown.

Using grenades in CC is in the Assault phase.

Is there anything in the rulebook which specifically says that grenades are only thrown in the shooting phase?

Traditio wrote:
Pistols can be used as melee weapons. I'm assuming that you aren't using them as bludgeon weapons.

Do you use the shooting profile of a pistol in close combat? No. You use the same profile as a club or combat knife.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You don't throw grenades in close combat.

The "one thrown per phase" is also accounting for Overwatch

It says that you can elect to use a grenade as a melee weapon, in which case you can substitute all of your attacks for a given model for a single attack using the grenade's profile.

It doesn't specifically say that you do or don't throw the grenade in the assault phase.

Pistols can be used as melee weapons. I'm assuming that you aren't using them as bludgeon weapons.

Yes you are using your pistols as a bludgeoning weapon (haven't you ever heard of pistol whipping?). You certainly aren't shooting your pistol in close combat because you aren't getting your pistol's gun profile when you use them in CC.

Ghaz 689494 wrote:Do you use the shooting profile of a pistol in close combat? No. You use the same profile as a club or combat knife.

This actually lends support to my interpretation of the grenade rule.

Because you actually do use the grenade's shooting profile in close combat.

Traditio wrote:
It doesn't specifically say that you do or don't throw the grenade in the assault phase.

Pistols can be used as melee weapons. I'm assuming that you aren't using them as bludgeon weapons.

I think you're confusing the narrative with the actual rules.

Your cool story guy may be firing point blank pistol shots into an ork's head, or your unit may be cramming grenades into people's pants...but that's not necessarily how the rules work.

Elric Greywolf wrote:I think you're confusing the narrative with the actual rules.

Your cool story guy may be firing point blank pistol shots into an ork's head, or your unit may be cramming grenades into people's pants...but that's not necessarily how the rules work.

Again, this seems to lend support to my interpretation that only one model per unit can use grenades in the assault phase. You actually do use the grenade's shooting profile in close combat.

Traditio wrote:

Ghaz 689494 wrote:Do you use the shooting profile of a pistol in close combat? No. You use the same profile as a club or combat knife.

This actually lends support to my interpretation of the grenade rule.

Because you actually do use the grenade's shooting profile in close combat.

But the Grenades rules specifically say they are clamped on to MCs and Vehicles in CC. That's not throwing them

Clearer:

In the shooting phase (or Overwatch), one model can toss a grenade.

When in assault, each model with a grenade gets one attack with it.

So, 10 tac marines see a WraithKnight Charging their way, about to assault. They Overwatch with a Krak grenade and the plasmagun dude, and skip rolling bolters cuz S4 won't hurt the WK. In assault, after the WK has scragged (let's say) 3 of them, the 7 marines left get one krak grenade dice roll each.

Let's say the marines are gonna assault the WK. One gets to throw a krak grenade. No pg shooting as it's a Rapid Fire toy. In assault, the marines remaining after Init 5 get one krak grenade each, not two (despite having Charged).

Better?

Traditio wrote:

Ghaz 689494 wrote:Do you use the shooting profile of a pistol in close combat? No. You use the same profile as a club or combat knife.

This actually lends support to my interpretation of the grenade rule.

Because you actually do use the grenade's shooting profile in close combat.

So a grenade suddenly loses its explosive properties in close combat Why are melta bombs S8 AP1 in close combat then when their rules say that they can't be used to make a shooting attack?

You aren't given permission to "throw" a grenade in the fight subphase, only for the purposes of using at as a shooting attack.
You are given permission in the fight subphase to substitute attacks for single attacks using the grenade profile against vehicles/big things. You are given no other limits on this exchange.

So you can only have one dude chuck a grenade, but they can all slap one on in close combat. As far as 40k RAW silliness goes, that's a tame one.

From 'Grenades of the 41st Millennium' (pg. 180, main rulebook):

A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks on its profile or any bonuses.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Clearer:

In the shooting phase (or Overwatch), one model can toss a grenade.

When in assault, each model with a grenade gets one attack with it.

Where precisely in the rules does it say this?

I looked today, and I didn't see that. All I saw was the restriction: "Only one model per unit may throw a grenade per phase."

It didn't say "per shooting phase." It said "per phase."

Is there a rule which specifically says that grenades are only thrown in the shooting phase?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Grenades of the 41st Millennium' (pg. 180, main rulebook):

A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks on its profile or any bonuses.

I am perfectly aware of this rule. It doesn't really answer the question.

All that it specifies is that a model using a grenade as a melee weapon cannot make more than one attack per assault phase.

It doesn't say how many models per unit can use a grenade per assault phase.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
You aren't given permission to "throw" a grenade in the fight subphase, only for the purposes of using at as a shooting attack.
You are given permission in the fight subphase to substitute attacks for single attacks using the grenade profile against vehicles/big things. You are given no other limits on this exchange.

So you can only have one dude chuck a grenade, but they can all slap one on in close combat. As far as 40k RAW silliness goes, that's a tame one.

Do the rules specifically say that you only throw grenades in the shooting phase?

Tradito why did you ignore my previous post? Is it because its the one you can't argue against?

They don't have to. If you did "throw" them in close combat, they would have to tell you that, instead, as throwing isn't defined anywhere else.

Also the "per phase" stops you from throwing 10 of them on overwatch.

Traditio wrote:

This actually lends support to my interpretation of the grenade rule.

Because you actually do use the grenade's shooting profile in close combat.

You use the profile, but you don't throw it. You just hit the models with which you're in close combat.

If you were able to throw grenades in close combat, the rules governing shooting and close combat would prevent you from targeting the unit with which you're engaged with them...

There are two different profiles, one for Shooting and one for CC.

Grenades in combat have the "Melee" special rule. Grenades for shooting do not have this USR

Traditio wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
Clearer:

In the shooting phase (or Overwatch), one model can toss a grenade.

When in assault, each model with a grenade gets one attack with it.

Where precisely in the rules does it say this?

I looked today, and I didn't see that. All I saw was the restriction: "Only one model per unit may throw a grenade per phase."

It didn't say "per shooting phase." It said "per phase."

Is there a rule which specifically says that grenades are only thrown in the shooting phase?

You've answered your own Q.
One throw per phase, whether the Shooting phase or Assault phase (meaning your enemy's assault phase, thus you throwing it in OverWatch). These are the only two phases when models are allowed to throw grenades. You got it.

Traditio wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Grenades of the 41st Millennium' (pg. 180, main rulebook):

A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks on its profile or any bonuses.

I am perfectly aware of this rule. It doesn't really answer the question.

All that it specifies is that a model using a grenade as a melee weapon cannot make more than one attack per assault phase.

It doesn't say how many models per unit can use a grenade per assault phase.

It does. 'A model' like a SM tries to use his one krak grenade in the assault phase. If you have 6 marines, that is six dice rolls, presumably against a WK or high Toughness target, or even a tank, just the six tries to blown a tank with those krak grenades.

As I understood it, it gets into specifics depending on what type of grenade you're using and what phase:

In the Shooting phase, if a Grenade can be thrown, one model per unit can throw it with the grenade's profile. All standard Grenades OTHER THAN Melta Bombs can be thrown, and have an appropriate profile in the Grenades section of the rulebook.

In the Assault Phase, Grenades act differently depending on the type:

Assault Grenades and Defensive Grenades have no assault profile, instead they grant passive bonuses (either negating cover or assault bonuses, respectively)

Plasma Grenades act like Assault Grenades if used against non vehicle, non monstrous creature models. If used against a MC gun emplacement or vehicle, it instead uses the Assault Profile (which has similar stats to it's shooting profile, but slightly different). In melee, any model can use a plasma grenade to attack, but they only get 1 attack that turn regardless of any other modifiers.

Haywire Grenades cannot be used in assault other than against vehicles. Against Vehicles they have an assault profile and the model using it only gets 1 attack.

Krak Grenades and Melta Bombs can only be used against vehicles, gun emplacements and MCs in the assault phase. In an assault, any model may use one of these grenades but can only make 1 attack again. Melta Bombs only have a profile usable in this phase, while Krak Grenades have a separate profile different from it's shooting one in this phase.

Hope that clears it up.

Traditio, pretty much everything you need is under each grenade's listing on pages 180 and 181.

@ Traditio

You're question has already been answered, but knowing you, you won't accept it if it's just said once. So I'm going to summarise (and thus reiterate to you my original assertion on this topic):

(i) When making any shooting attack in any phase (Shooting in the Shooting Phase, Overwatch in the Assault Phase, etc etc), only one model in a given unit may fire a grenade. This only applies to shooting attacks.

(ii) Many grenades have a melee attack profile which is used in the Assault Phase when the unit enters into Close Combat. The wording is pretty clear that every model in a given unit may forego the use of all other melee weapons and forego all of their attacks to make a single close combat attack with the chosen grenade using the melee profile found in the BRB. This only applies to melee attacks.

(iii) Since this has been answered adequately several times now as well as the fact that the BRB is reasonably clear on this point, I recommend going back to the relevant pages in the rule book and reading them again in detail. You will (not 'should', will) find that what I and many others have asserted is the truth.

 IllumiNini wrote:
@ Traditio

You're question has already been answered, but knowing you, you won't accept it if it's just said once. So I'm going to summarise (and thus reiterate to you my original assertion on this topic):

(i) When making any shooting attack in any phase (Shooting in the Shooting Phase, Overwatch in the Assault Phase, etc etc), only one model in a given unit may fire a grenade. This only applies to shooting attacks.

(ii) Many grenades have a melee attack profile which is used in the Assault Phase when the unit enters into Close Combat. The wording is pretty clear that every model in a given unit may forego the use of all other melee weapons and forego all of their attacks to make a single close combat attack with the chosen grenade using the melee profile found in the BRB. This only applies to melee attacks.

(iii) Since this has been answered adequately several times now as well as the fact that the BRB is reasonably clear on this point, I recommend going back to the relevant pages in the rule book and reading them again in detail. You will (not 'should', will) find that what I and many others have asserted is the truth.

So, to be clear, it is the consensus of the people in this thread that:

1. "To throw a grenade" means "to make a shooting attack with a grenade."
2. A grenade is not thrown during the assault phase.
3. Therefore, because of the relevant rules in combination which points 1 and 2 above, all models who have grenades may use them during the assault phase?

If that's true, that works out in my favor.

Yes. That is correct.

I understand where your confusion lies.

Under "Grenades in the 41st millennium" the last sentence is "only ine grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase."

You were taking this as a literal 1 grenade.

The parenthetical "of any type" is there to clarify the meaning of the preceding phrase. It is not one krak grenade per phase, it is krak grenade or melta bombs; never both from the same unit in a given phase.

The sentence before this one is discussing usage of grenades in the shooting and assault phases and is the subject of this 2-sentence paragraph, meaning that the second sentence applies to both phases and shooting as well as assault. But the individual attacks or usage of the grenades are detailed in their individual rules, or the following section of rules for attacking vehicles and MCs.

When "throwing" your 1 grenade type in the assault phase against vehicles or mcs; each model doing so cam make only 1 attack.

What the first rule is saying is that you cannot charge a walker with a tactical squad through difficult terrain and attack it with krak grenades at initiative. Nor can you have the other 9 members of your tactical squad attack a vehicle with krak grenades while your sgt affixes a melta bomb.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I understand where your confusion lies.

Under "Grenades in the 41st millennium" the last sentence is "only ine grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase."

You were taking this as a literal 1 grenade.

The parenthetical "of any type" is there to clarify the meaning of the preceding phrase. It is not one krak grenade per phase, it is krak grenade or melta bombs; never both from the same unit in a given phase

That's not how I read that sentence. If GW wanted to assert that you can only use one kind of grenade per phase, they would have phrased it like they do in the case of sternguard special ammunition: "All models with special issue ammunition in a unit must use the same profile" (Codex: Space Marines, p 196). It would have said: "All models in a unit using a grenade must use the same type of grenade."

That's not what it says. The way that I read it, given the parenthetical, is: "Regardless of the kind of grenade you use, only one grenade may be thrown per unit per phase."

So, if multiple grenades can be used by a unit in the assault phase, nothing prevents sarge from attaching a melta bomb while everyone else affixes krak grenades.

The question is whether krak grenades are thrown in the assault phase.

If they are thrown in the assault phase, then only one grenade may be used.

If they are not thrown, then multiple grenades may be used, but no more than one grenade may be used by any given model.

So, sarge can't use both a krak grenade AND a melta bomb in the same assault phase.

What the first rule is saying is that you cannot charge a walker with a tactical squad through difficult terrain and attack it with krak grenades at initiative. Nor can you have the other 9 members of your tactical squad attack a vehicle with krak grenades while your sgt affixes a melta bomb.

Where do the rules explicitly say any of this? I don't remember seeing examples outlining either of these things.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I understand where your confusion lies.

Under "Grenades in the 41st millennium" the last sentence is "only ine grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase."

You were taking this as a literal 1 grenade.

The parenthetical "of any type" is there to clarify the meaning of the preceding phrase. It is not one krak grenade per phase, it is krak grenade or melta bombs; never both from the same unit in a given phase.

The sentence before this one is discussing usage of grenades in the shooting and assault phases and is the subject of this 2-sentence paragraph, meaning that the second sentence applies to both phases and shooting as well as assault. But the individual attacks or usage of the grenades are detailed in their individual rules, or the following section of rules for attacking vehicles and MCs.

When "throwing" your 1 grenade type in the assault phase against vehicles or mcs; each model doing so cam make only 1 attack.

What the first rule is saying is that you cannot charge a walker with a tactical squad through difficult terrain and attack it with krak grenades at initiative. Nor can you have the other 9 members of your tactical squad attack a vehicle with krak grenades while your sgt affixes a melta bomb.

Not quite, Kommissar. In order for this to be a fact, "thrown" would have to be classified as a "used". I am unfamiliar with where that is defined.

For example for Assault Grenades:

Shooting
When a unit armed with assault grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon.
...
Assault
Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through difficult terrain, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.

And Krak Grenades:

Shooting
When a unit armed with krak grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon.
...
Assault
Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, krak grenades have no effect. When they are used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, krak grenades have the following profile:

And Melta Bombs:

Assault
Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, melta bombs have no effect. When used in assaults against vehicles, buildings, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, melta bombs have the following profile:

So, you can use Assault Grenades to ignore the penalties of Difficult Terrain, and Krak Grenades to Hit the Walker. BUT a unit cannot shoot (throw) an Assault Grenade and a Krak Grenade in the same Phase (even if they didn't restrict it to only one model shooting). A Tactical Squad can use Krak Grenades and a Meltabomb, but only one of the Grenades per model per the More Than One Weapon rule.

I think that Charistoph is right on this point.

Thanks!

Also what's the point of melta bomb imperial guard vets if only one can use it?