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 pretre wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah, they have a valid point. GW has released a lot of basic infantry kits with 5 models in them (from Grey Knights, to Death Company, to Sci... Astr... Storm Troopers) and priced them very highly because they contain the parts for multiple different units. Of course you can't build multiple different units from them, so you're always leaving money on the table when you build them.

I disagree that you're leaving money on the table; I think f it as having plenty of options for magnets and those plain marines you have sitting around.

Magnetizing big beasties, walkers, stompy robots, etc. is usually good practice, but magnetizing rank and file infantry... well, that way madness lies. Not everyone is going to have the patience for it. And if GW really wanting people to hot swap out the big kits, they could easily design them with 1/8" round slots to easily slide in a rare earth magnet and "Bob's Your Uncle".

Also, I find it ironic Panic is complaining about Chapter House... I think they need to read up on why you wanted and need GW to lose overall, unless you want them having a copyright on crap like "halberds" for every table top miniature.


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Backfire wrote:
Another problem with dual kits is that sometimes they just feel real forced, like they made this big kit, and then decided that they need to get two units out of it regardless of whether the second unit makes sense or not. Ogryn/Bullgryn, for example.

I generally like the dual kits for giving conversion bits, but I think that if they sell a unit, it should be a complete unit in a box. Thus if Ogryn can be 10 man max, make it a 10 man box. If that means Bullgryn don't exist to do so, affordable wargame wins out over expensive wargame for my tastes.

I just think GW is going to be getting smarter on how they actually make these dual kits such that making them easily magnetized might fall out of favor. Why let them buy one and get all three when you can make all but the most die hard conversion type buy three kits?

 TheKbob wrote:


I generally like the dual kits for giving conversion bits, but I think that if they sell a unit, it should be a complete unit in a box. Thus if Ogryn can be 10 man max, make it a 10 man box. If that means Bullgryn don't exist to do so, affordable wargame wins out over expensive wargame for my tastes.

who has a use for 30 DC marines?

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

who does not have a use for 30 DC marines?

TFTFY

The obscene model count that is 40k (and ultimately Fantasy) is another issue entirely. But the idea of getting a complete set of models in a box would be nice. $50 for a full unit of Sternguard? Sounds good. $50 for half a unit and I still need a vehicle for them? No thanks.

Dealing with the Drop Pod. Any news on the rule with how it comes in? Normal drop pod rules with 1/2 first turn or we looking at turn 2 reserve rolls for them?

Just regular reserve rolls starting from turn 2. The campaign book could hold a formation which changes that, of course.

 pretre wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah, they have a valid point. GW has released a lot of basic infantry kits with 5 models in them (from Grey Knights, to Death Company, to Sci... Astr... Storm Troopers) and priced them very highly because they contain the parts for multiple different units. Of course you can't build multiple different units from them, so you're always leaving money on the table when you build them.

I disagree that you're leaving money on the table; I think f it as having plenty of options for magnets and those plain marines you have sitting around.

Which is fine for marines, they are very magnet friendly, but for things like these new big bugs I can see it being quite tricky to magnetise the parts. GW aren't designing these with magnet use in mind, they want you to buy a second kit to make that second option and then have two lots of unused parts sitting around. The recent Putrid Blightkings make it look like you can build each model in two pretty distinctive styles. but the sprues look to have part compatibility that is designed to stymie use outside of that particular kit.


It's a separate point, but as someone who's quite environmentally conscious - or tries to be as much as one can when their hobby that revolves around plastic - I find the wastage quite disgusting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


That and the minimise the amount of expensive plastic moulds they have to machine.

And yet they're content to spend this money on limited edition plastic character models from which they must surely only take a loss. After all, how many Krom Dragongazes got sold in the end without putting him on general release? Gee Dub be Gee Dub.

See GW, you really can do it when you want to. Those are some fantastic Tyranids.

I really just wish you'd fix your rules up and do something about the flying rodent gak insane prices, because I really do want to get back to my Tyranids.

 pretre wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah, they have a valid point. GW has released a lot of basic infantry kits with 5 models in them (from Grey Knights, to Death Company, to Sci... Astr... Storm Troopers) and priced them very highly because they contain the parts for multiple different units. Of course you can't build multiple different units from them, so you're always leaving money on the table when you build them.

I disagree that you're leaving money on the table; I think f it as having plenty of options for magnets and those plain marines you have sitting around.

I see where your coming from but consider that all new players don't have ANY plain marines laying around and you can quickly see how its an issue for those players especially. Even vet players starting a new faction won't necessarily have loads of plain Jane dudes to spiff up.


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 TheKbob wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

who does not have a use for 30 DC marines?

TFTFY

The obscene model count that is 40k (and ultimately Fantasy) is another issue entirely. But the idea of getting a complete set of models in a box would be nice. $50 for a full unit of Sternguard? Sounds good. $50 for half a unit and I still need a vehicle for them? No thanks.

Don't forget that 50 dollar box STILL doesn't give enough combi's to kit the unit one way, meaning without ebay you'd have to buy boxes for the right weapon configs alone. That's always been a big issue with them and their elite units. Oh DE players need how many Blasters for trueborn? Yea start buying more sets. IG players have it the roughest by far though, lists needing 15-20 specials they don't provide in the boxes at all.

 sockwithaticket wrote:

And yet they're content to spend this money on limited edition plastic character models from which they must surely only take a loss. After all, how many Krom Dragongazes got sold in the end without putting him on general release? Gee Dub be Gee Dub.

Back when Wargames Factory started out, and the models were supposed be decided upon the fans, it was pointed out that sprue size is a significant factor in the cost of the mold.
Single figure sprues are significantly less expensive than regular/full sized sprues.

Storm Claw was all recycled content except for the two limited figures, so over all a minimal investement in molds for a product that sold for $100 us. Space Hulk was all original content, with more and larger sprues and retailed for $100.

Fair point, I hadn't considered it in the wider context of what Krom and the Ork came with which was daft of me as I always saw them as the lure to tempt people into buying stuff they might already own.

Regarding the cost of single-figure sprues, Chaptermasters.com had talked with the Ali Morisson from the GW Model Team and got an interesting answer:

Warhammer Fest – No More Epic – New Tyranids – Visions to Continue
Posted on October 15, 2014 by Jon

...

The Model Team

I spoke with Ali Morisson about the future of Finecast/Metal traditional sculpting. He was very clear he could see no possibility of metal returning, although there might be a few more Finecast releases. I talked to him about the human art like quality of the old methods. His reply was that was what Forgeworld had taken on and that the Games Workshop Studio is now very much about plastic. I asked him how it was possible for them to make any money on the Limited Edition Plastic models. He said they made plenty of money off them, by the first day of the release.

...

The entire report is worth a read http://chaptermasters.com/warhammer-fest-epic-news-from-the-studio/ and there are tons of photos of the Golden Demon entries as well

Moulds got a lot cheaper it seems (in comparison to what it was ten, fifteen years ago)

Tyranid news release thread for Tyranid releases, please dont bump the thread for off topic things.

Disappointing about the sisters of battle. I wonder what he said in reply to the comparison of the deldar range.


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Good to know they're gung-ho about plastic.

 -Loki- wrote:
See GW, you really can do it when you want to. Those are some fantastic Tyranids.

I really just wish you'd fix your rules up and do something about the flying rodent gak insane prices, because I really do want to get back to my Tyranids.

At this point, price is about the only valid issue most players could have with GW.

 PhillyT wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
See GW, you really can do it when you want to. Those are some fantastic Tyranids.

I really just wish you'd fix your rules up and do something about the flying rodent gak insane prices, because I really do want to get back to my Tyranids.

At this point, price is about the only valid issue most players could have with GW.

Aside from terrible rules?

I'd throw down $100au on a Haruspex today if it was actually worth using.

 -Loki- wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
See GW, you really can do it when you want to. Those are some fantastic Tyranids.

I really just wish you'd fix your rules up and do something about the flying rodent gak insane prices, because I really do want to get back to my Tyranids.

At this point, price is about the only valid issue most players could have with GW.

Aside from terrible rules?

I'd throw down $100au on a Haruspex today if it was actually worth using.

Ditto. This ws3,t6,s6 attacks 3 copy and paste template drives me fricking crazy.
Nid close combat Mc's should be atleast ws4 and trygons/ Mawloc's atleast deserve a T7 status.


But yeah, let's not go into that!
Has anyone spotted the zoeys yet or their rules? I'm really hopeful for a few new psychic powers. That'd be awesome.

I am actually ok with the WS3.

Tyranids MC's aren't sparing and dueling so much as throwing out haymakers and sweeping their scythe talons across the ground. Hitting most things in the game on a 4+ makes sense.

Most things hitting them on a 4 or a 3 for skilled units also makes sense as they aren't afraid of taking blows while drunk on hivemind willpower.

What kills me is when a 4 armed monster has 3 attacks base

Well, this has been an exciting update for the Nids! And with no new codex in sight, it seems that the army may be going for some time without the need to purchase a new ruleset and (ergo) invalidate your army.

Makes me wish GW were more transparent about their plans, since one plan of action is never consistent with the next. If they'd just say "expect rule updates in this format (aka the PP format) for some time," I imagine they'd get a ton of people STILL sitting on the fence about picking up 7th. Don't want to get burned again, and all that.

Here's to hoping.

Higher WS isn't the only way to make an assault unit better. I never expected high WS. But when your assault monster is outright terrible at assault, or looking at the new bugs, your giant brain that fries other people's brains is terrible at frying other people's brains, there's a problem.

One note units are fine, but not when they're terrible at that note.

The WS3 on big scary beasties isn't a Tyranid problem. It applies to a lot of things as well, like Daemon Engines. Doesn't make any sense to me, especially given the way Tyranids breed creatures specifically for tasks... and yet they're only as "skilled" at those tasks as Guardsmen.

 Wilson wrote:
I always think that you are telling everybody to panic after you've left a comment.

That's what my Signature is for now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The WS3 on big scary beasties isn't a Tyranid problem. It applies to a lot of things as well, like Daemon Engines. Doesn't make any sense to me, especially given the way Tyranids breed creatures specifically for tasks... and yet they're only as "skilled" at those tasks as Guardsmen.

Guardmen are trained soldiers.

Since WS affects difficulty to hit, it's also a measure of self defense ability and self preservation instinct.

Tyranids and Chaos are really known for self preservation instinct

 adamsouza wrote:
Guardmen are trained soldiers.

And Tyranid created are created for no other purpose than to wage war. They should be better.

As a Big Fat Bug its difficult to Hit small guardies.. Ever tried to catch a mosquito?!? Your personal ws against mosquitos is 0...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Guardmen are trained soldiers.

And Tyranid created are created for no other purpose than to wage war. They should be better.

Then that would make them all equal to Space Marines, and GW would never let that happen.

 winterwind85 wrote:
As a Big Fat Bug its difficult to Hit small guardies.. Ever tried to catch a mosquito?!? Your personal ws against mosquitos is 0...

Terrible comparison. Mosquitos have reactions far beyond that of a human. Nothing about the big Tyranids implies they've got slow reactions, at least to that degree.

 -Loki- wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
As a Big Fat Bug its difficult to Hit small guardies.. Ever tried to catch a mosquito?!? Your personal ws against mosquitos is 0...

Terrible comparison. Mosquitos have reactions far beyond that of a human. Nothing about the big Tyranids implies they've got slow reactions, at least to that degree.

Larger creatures move and react proportionally slower. That's a biological fact. Weight scales cubically with volume whereas strength scales quadratically with surface area. Additionally, the small distance between a creature's sensory organs, brain, and muscles means that smaller creatures have quicker reactions. I'm not sure how Hive-Mind Space-Magic fits into all this.

Simply put, larger Tyranids would have slower reactions similar to how humans would have trouble catching a squirrel.



.

 Absolutionis wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
As a Big Fat Bug its difficult to Hit small guardies.. Ever tried to catch a mosquito?!? Your personal ws against mosquitos is 0...

Terrible comparison. Mosquitos have reactions far beyond that of a human. Nothing about the big Tyranids implies they've got slow reactions, at least to that degree.

Larger creatures move and react proportionally slower. That's a biological fact. Weight scales cubically with volume whereas strength scales quadratically with surface area. Additionally, the small distance between a creature's sensory organs, brain, and muscles means that smaller creatures have quicker reactions. I'm not sure how Hive-Mind Space-Magic fits into all this.

Simply put, larger Tyranids would have slower reactions similar to how humans would have trouble catching a squirrel.

.

I'd factor in Tyranid space magic at least a fair bit. In the same way humans have engineered assassins up to WS8 and I7, and Space Marines up to WS 6/7 and I5/6, I imagine the tyranids would put some effort into engineering their creatures, when necessary, to a speed capable of catching their prey.

Not every creature should be WS4+ and I4+, especially the non-combat creatures like Zoanthropes, Malanthropes and Tervigons, but anything that it built to get in close should be swift enough to be competent at it.

 -Loki- wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
As a Big Fat Bug its difficult to Hit small guardies.. Ever tried to catch a mosquito?!? Your personal ws against mosquitos is 0...

Terrible comparison. Mosquitos have reactions far beyond that of a human. Nothing about the big Tyranids implies they've got slow reactions, at least to that degree.

Since when are mosquitoes hard to catch? I hate mosquitoes, I usually swipe at them with one hand and catch them.

Relative to your own size, the smaller you get the faster you get... but in absolute terms, not really. An ant may be able to move its legs at a super fast angular rate, but I can still outrun one or squash it under my foot quite easily.

Do those mosquitoes have guns though? If not then this whole conversation is meaningless, meaningless!

Can anyone point me to a good Tyranid army break down, obviously pre the current releases? Getting super tempted to jump in.