Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW has absolutely no interest in creating an edition where nobody buys troops, especially right as they are raising prices on most of them. So I think you will see troops either coming down in cost significantly or going up in their worth in other ways, now that you don't de facto have to take them for CP generation. (And I am actually a huge fan of troops, especially aeldari troops, and I don't take them only or even mostly for CP generation.)
My guess is it will involve missions and the board control. More and more stuff jumping out reserves will naturally increase value of cheap troops to push reserves. If missions come more objective based rather than killing that also helps.
Points are hard to come down due to floor coming on ground...are we soon at 1 pts gretchins? Well unless they do the sensible thing and start adjusting points by like DOUBLING everything including game size. So rather than 4 pts IG trooper and 2k as default we have 7 pts troopers and 4k as standard.
(that should be done just to give more granularity. The cheap stuff area is pretty damn cramped now)
Sarigar wrote: I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
CRAFTWORLD:
Battalion, Outrider - Saim Hann
Spearhead - Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
COMMAND POINTS:10
WARLORD: Autarch Skyrunner
2000 points.
Looks good, plenty of guns and manoeuvrability with saim Han, their bikes are easy to underestimate. Between the scatter lasers and star cannons they should be able to put in good work. I still remain unconvinced on nightspinners, too much swinginess in both shots and anti armour. Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they whiff hard. But I'm very interested to see how you get on.
I am not a big fan of the random shot mechanic, but I've had reasonable success with running three in ITC, where there is more Los blocking on the tables I've played on. I've added the Autarch tommadd further efficiency in a way to help offset the swinginess of random shots during a game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/28 10:06:20
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Well, as a long-term Eldar player I know that for Eldar the move from one edition to the next one was never a big issue.
Eldar did very well in all editions so far.
The point is that Eldar has enough variability to react to each rule change.
The meta will shift and so the emphasis what units to take and how to configure a competitive list.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Sarigar wrote: I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
CRAFTWORLD:
Battalion, Outrider - Saim Hann
Spearhead - Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
COMMAND POINTS:10
WARLORD: Autarch Skyrunner
2000 points.
Looks good, plenty of guns and manoeuvrability with saim Han, their bikes are easy to underestimate. Between the scatter lasers and star cannons they should be able to put in good work. I still remain unconvinced on nightspinners, too much swinginess in both shots and anti armour. Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they whiff hard. But I'm very interested to see how you get on.
I am not a big fan of the random shot mechanic, but I've had reasonable success with running three in ITC, where there is more Los blocking on the tables I've played on. I've added the Autarch tommadd further efficiency in a way to help offset the swinginess of random shots during a game.
I've been running three on TTS recently, the out of line of sight shooting is very useful but I still find them a bit annoying! Sometimes they roll hot and they're absolutely amazing, sometimes when you really need them to perform you roll average to low shots and barely get a six to wound and not much happens at all! I figure they'll get the blast treatment in ninth and then they should be much better.
Not an Eldar player but Eldar is my primary opponent and all I will say is that Nightspinners are an absolute nightmare for me. If I had a similarly priced unit in my toolbox I would take three every time
slave.entity wrote: Scatterbikes and vypers. I like it. Seems very fragile compared to the eldar lists I'm used to but the army wide 36+" range should help with that.
Well, in the edition it appears that units could arrive at board edges making the range argument an issue.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
They can't unless they nerf the stupid EC/MS combo, which makes it effectively impossible to buff single-entity eldar stuff without overpowering them. Without EC/MS they're not very good, with it they're borderline overpowered, like all eldar single entities since the PA book.
EC/MS is a cancer on eldar build diversity and until they bit the bullet and admit it was a mistake it will continue to hamstring what they can do with the faction. Craftworld Eldar have become the chosen faction of the "just roll dice and win" crowd after the nerfs to imperial fists, and that's not a good place for your faction to be. Especially given how historically eldar have been a high skill cap, tricksy faction, not a brute force faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/02 02:58:02
I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Fast melee has been the big challenge with my heavy shooting lists. Deep strike was somewhat rectified by using 2-3 Hornets in a unit and Forewarned. I've wanted to use the Wraithknight as the counter assault element, but just not quite efficient enough. 500 points of Wraithlords/Wraithseers seems very interesting. That is a detachment of its own. Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
Sarigar wrote: Fast melee has been the big challenge with my heavy shooting lists. Deep strike was somewhat rectified by using 2-3 Hornets in a unit and Forewarned. I've wanted to use the Wraithknight as the counter assault element, but just not quite efficient enough. 500 points of Wraithlords/Wraithseers seems very interesting. That is a detachment of its own. Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
I was hamstrung by a double battalion and I wanted to keep mono craftworld but I think wrath of the dead could definitely work. I also like the wraithseer ynarri cheese but I would have to make too many comprises to fit that in. I am using both vigilus detachments however which is fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bhazakhain wrote: I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/02 14:19:39
Bhazakhain wrote: I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
Whilst its too warm to do sums I suspect Crafters and Citizens will be more consistent but its a three scoop problem and im out of ice cream
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
A part of me is debating Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead in a detachment.
Support Weapon Batteries have the Guardian keyword and Martial Citizenry would work, but I think Expert Crafters would be better for them while the Martial Citizenry would better suit the Guardian squads, but as stated, a cheap Autarch can provide that.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
kingheff wrote: I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
Out of curiosity, how would an extra 4” help Guardians? A Primaris would move 6” the following turn and be within rapid fire range, unless you’re factoring in Fire and Fade?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/03 08:12:03
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules... The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you coem up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait. The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/02 22:22:31
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Turnip Jedi wrote: I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
Out of curiosity, how would an extra 4” help Guardians? A Primaris would move 6” the following turn and be within rapid fire range, unless you’re factoring in Fire and Fade?
The extra 4" doesn't seem like that much, because it isn't, but it does give you a minimum 24" threat range which is actually quite useful. Personally I wouldn't run guardians in significant numbers anyway but that's another matter.
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules...
The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you coem up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait.
The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
It's a bit more than 300 points, but your overall strategy explanation is solid. There are a lot of wounds at T8 and not something to try and assault. If you are using them as objective holders, Relic Hunters for the +1 attack could also be beneficial; a lot really depends on terrain, overall army composition, and what you typically would face off against. I like the idea and it's not something I see much of locally. Cool idea.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules... The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you come up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait. The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
It's a bit more than 300 points, but your overall strategy explanation is solid. There are a lot of wounds at T8 and not something to try and assault. If you are using them as objective holders, Relic Hunters for the +1 attack could also be beneficial; a lot really depends on terrain, overall army composition, and what you typically would face off against. I like the idea and it's not something I see much of locally. Cool idea.
I look at it that its like having prepared position every turn. They are a tough mean distraction carnifex. They keep dishing out damage at range but are very low value kill wise on their own me thinks and people hate shooting at them because they are only a 100pt model. With t8 and a 2+ that prospect becomes even more unfavourable.
I think relic hunters is too situational. I would rather make their detachment a wraith host and burn a cp or two to give them an additional attack if I really feel its needed but benefit from better save for a detachment. Tanks like the wave serpent with a spiirt stone really like the 2+ cover save too. For me its a toss up every game weather or not masters of concealment or masterful shots as both are valid. I think id go with wrath of the dead if the lords were sharing a detatchemnt with big blobs of wraithblades/wraithguard.
Hope I can just run my wraiths on their own in the new edition with only like one big unit of troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/03 21:53:33
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Concur about using Wraith models. I have 45 Wraithguard/Wraithblades alone. I'd love to be able to run that type of Craftworld army without feeling lime I have hamstrung myself.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
kingheff wrote: I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
Eldar- 4436 pts
