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Hi everyone I'm very new to the hobby and have been solely painting since the start of the year. I've yet to roll a dice but have been working on assembling my army with one eye on this forum, Goonhammer and the unit reviews on 1d4chan. I've drawn up a list based on the models I have, and while I intended them to be competitive, a large draw has been to play Eldrad and drop a fully psychically buffed up guardian blob on my opponent. I know that this isn't hyper competitive, and that I'm missing out on Masterful/Expert Crafters but I'd like to play a few games with this setup as it sounds fun, and I can get an appreciation for how the aforementioned craftworld traits might improve on this "vanilla" setup which I missed out on first time around.My strategy is to look to control objectives with this army, using the spears warlock and autarch to take out deep striking scouts or maybe a pushed up invictor, before looking to assess a favourable CC in the midfield. I have ample non LOS shooting with the spinner/ 2 DR exarchs to clear out things like eliminators or a thunderfire cannon, i figured my Hemlock could help with causing problems in the backfield. I have objective grabbers with my rangers/DA squads in serpents plus E-dizzle and a warlock to support them. Ultimately I'd look to combine my Guardian blob with my mini deathball charge in turn two or three to clinch the center board. Does this seem viable?

While I'd like to get into the competitive scene, my first few games will be with a friend who has also taken up the hobby at Christmas time. We're both working on our 2k armies (hes playing Ultramarines) and our idea is to play a few matches post lockdown with our regular tabletop (mostly DND) group to try and get more friends into the hobby. I know this list doesn't have to be super competitive, but that's the bar I've set for myself eventually, so I'd welcome any feedback on where I might refine things in the future.

In the future I'd like to look into acquiring more spears to bring that unit up to max size, in addition to perhaps replacing my nightspinner with war walkers for some more board control an pick up some support weapons for a possible foray into crafters. As is I'd be grateful for feedback on what I have now, and also any pointers on how I should look to play the army. I know Aeldari aren't the easiest, so I've been watching some youtube battle reports and reading articles to work on strategy. One concern I have is that If i start my DAs and footlock/eldrad in serpents, then I dont have a lot of screens, so I'd need to have at least one unit of rangers in my deployment zone.

Thanks for any input you have


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [65 PL, 1,255pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned

+ HQ +

Eldrad Ulthran [8 PL, 145pts]: 0. Smite, 1. Guide, 2. Doom, 4. Executioner

Warlock [2 PL, 50pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, 5. Focus Will, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear

+ Troops +

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 58pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 4x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 58pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 4x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]
. 20x Guardian Defender: 20x Plasma Grenades, 20x Shuriken Catapult
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 160pts]
. 4x Dark Reaper: 4x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher
. . Exarch Power: Crack Shot

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 160pts]
. 4x Dark Reaper: 4x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher
. . Exarch Power: Crack Shot

Night Spinner [8 PL, 117pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 170pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 147pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [39 PL, 744pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 105pts]: 2: An Eye on Distant Events, Craftworlds Warlord, Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shimmerplume of Achillrial

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: 2. Witch Strike, 5. Quicken/Restrain, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

+ Fast Attack +

Shining Spears [10 PL, 182pts]
. 5x Shining Spear: 5x Laser Lance, 5x Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
. . Exarch Power: Skilled Rider

+ Flyer +

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, Spirit Stones

++ Total: [104 PL, 1,999pts] ++

Thanks for the input guys, I take your point about the punch. Ill play a few games when able to and see what needs rejigging.

^ Thats fantastic. Im having a play around with battlescribe to work on some of these different loadouts along these lines. Certainly going to play a few games as dual battalion. My opponent is playing UM aggressors/warsuits and dreads with a reroll castle so not sure what the best unit counter would be to a strong core like this. If i do make my transports from one craftworld, can they carry troops from another craftworld?

Nostro wrote:


Don't know how it would work in your list, but squads of Dire Avengers with Shredding Fire look like the best answer to this particular question, especially in a Masterful Shots CW.

Decent range and RoF, single damage, S4 AP-3 no cover - on a troop platform.

It bypasses AP shenanigans, does not waste multi-damage on them, and brings them to their 6++ so no AP wasted as well.

Found the following math on comparison which puts it prettty close

Bladestorm:

1 expert crafters attack + 11 normal attacks, taking bladestorm as being equivalent to BS 2:

35/36 + 55/6 = 365/36

1 Expert Crafters wound + 329/36 normal wounds:

3/4 + 329/72 = 383/72

Saves:

383/72 / 2 = 383/144 = 2.66 unsaved wounds.

Shredding Fire:

Exarch 1 expert crafters attack + 3 regular attacks:

8/9 + 6/3 = 26/9

Exarch 1 expert crafters wound + 17/9 regular wounds:

3/4 + 17/18 = 61/36

Saves vs MEQ:

61/36 * 5 / 6 = 305/216 = 1.49 unsaved wounds.

8 dire avengers hits:

16/3

Wounds:

16/6

Wounds after MEQ Saves:

16/12 = 1.33

Full squads damage:

305/216 + 16/12 = 593/216 = 2.75 unsaved wounds.

Comes out pretty close vs solely meq units

Nostro wrote:


To be honest I find the way this math is formatted pretty confusing and hard to read ; I didn't quite review it all nor have time to do it on my side at the moment, will come back with it at some point later if someone hasn't in the meantime.

But at least this part caught my eye, if I understand it correctly you're giving them a 4+ Sv, as if Shredding Fire were AP-1.
SF is AP-3 on all weapons on all hit rolls, so that last part should read 80/36 ie 2.22, for a total of ~3.64, virtually a full extra wound compared to 2.66 for Bladestorm.

And this is against MEQ, so for sisters while ratios stay similar the difference translates to more dead models.

The maths isnt my own, credit goes to reddit user u/anthropophage. He details the ap as: (from the eldar subreddit)

"Rend against T4 is pretty straightforward. One third of your successful wounds will rend, so you can take all successful wounds as having AP -1."

Goonhammer has a decent article on exarch powers but the bulk of it concerns avenging shots as opposed bs/sf

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-pointy-eared-exarch-extravaganza/

 grouchoben wrote:
What's your chosen exarch power on your FDs out of interest?

With swift step (3d6 on advance, choose highest) plus a quicken your footslogging FDs have a pretty comfortable threat range of + 35 inches that is hard to see coming

Nick Nanavati's craftworlds bat rep.

In case you're looking for some quite tactically driven ITC content, the Art Of War Youtube crew have been streaming games. Thought I'd post Nick's list here as it was a little different to what I'd seen, utilising a lot of spears, DAs, Asurmen and the relic hunters/superior shurikens craftworld traits. Here's the video in case anyone is keen to fill up some time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkvuzAYlIL0&t=139s

His list goes as follows


Custom battalion- hunters of ancient relics, superior shurikens
Farseer skyrunner 132 (guide, fortune)
Farseer skyrunner 132 (doom, executioner)
7 dire avengers- double catapult exarch, avenging strike 80
7 dire avengers- double catapult exarch, avenging strike 80
7 dire avengers- double catapult exarch, avenging strike 80
9 shining Spears- star lance, skilled rider 272
9 shining Spears- star lance, skilled rider 272

Custom battalion- hunters of ancient relics, superior shurikens
Warlock sky runner 62 (quicken, focus will)
Spiritseer 55 (protect/jinx, focus will)
20 guardians- 2 scatter lasers
7 dire avengers- double catapult exarch, avenging strike 80
7 dire avengers- double catapult exarch, avenging strike 80

Custom spearhead- expert crafters, masterful shots
Asurmen 150
Night spinner 112
Night spinner 112
Night Spinner 112

Yeah, AS is pretty good on larger units. Having watched a few games he's just hugging objectives and playing really conservatively with the DAs. Its good to see an endorsement of the guardian bomb as I think that's a lot more fun than lots of msus. Overall I like these games for learning, but there are other channels (tabeltop tactics, SN) that are a little bit more entertaining/easy to follow

If its the spears unit you mean then I think theyre talking about wrap and trap, a good writeup is detailed below midway through the article . Nick mentions its a big disincentive to drop down his guardian blob.There's also some "conga lining" from the chaos player which is another creative use of the as written rules which we might see addressed in the next addition.

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-charge-and-fight-phase/

I didn't appreciate the Epitome/fly interaction so that was a useful spot too thanks.

I prefer Kingheff's list for an all comers list. Hunters is a cool trait but I feel its a little wasted on DAs even if they are hugging objectives, so if I were to take it Itd be on a spears only detachment. Im trying to order support weapons in the UK but theres not a whiff of them anywhere, so please let me know if anyone sees them for sale somewhere!

Not a tactical post but GW announced today that theyre putting up the prices on the following eldar kits and I thought this was the best place to put the info.
Hemlocks
Crimson Hunters
Guardians
War Walkers
Warlock/Farseer Skyrunner
Eldrad
Farseer on foot
Dark reapers

Might be time to order some if you intend on growing your collections in any of those directions in the near future

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/21/heads-up-price-adjustment-new-releases/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=WHTV&utm_content=whtvupdate210520&fbclid=IwAR3PM_uMOvwbuvTjNoG7G8nx6XGIw2e0zUWbl3n8F9BnmFxYPJOo3wADPuY

 clodax66 wrote:


didn't the flyers go from 65 to 75 recently

Couldn't say for sure if they went up recently, but theyre available at non gw retailers for under £40 in the UK. Thirty pounds for fine cast DR is pretty woeful. I had an awful time with the first few I put together, though I managed to avoid the meltdown I had dealing with my Ranger's squinty rifle syndrome . Price increases on our datacards which most likely have a lifespan of inside a year is a bit hopeful on their part. For me war walkers and more reapers were on the to do list so that's most likely where I'll look to save a little cash

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I have a general tactics question- How do I, as an Eldar player, deal with tanks and things like Knights? Which units are effective in removing them? I'm stumped in how to handle a list like a 3 Knight list in a normal 2000 point event. I'd prefer to keep my army pure Eldar but if there are no good alternatives I would look at Dark Eldar and Harlies.

Thanks for any info/tips.

You have a lot of specialised troops to deal with tanks and armour. Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, support weapons and Fire Dragons all melt armoured, multi wound models. Right now people are taking large collections of Vibro cannons (6 or more) using the custom craftworld traits of expert crafters as sustained fire against heavily armoured units from these guys is especially effective. It's worth noting that because they count as individual units you can reroll one hit and wound for each gun, and as they increase effectiveness over a turn even though they're only S7 they will have little trouble wounding high toughness bad guys. All that is ignoring cover due to the use of expert crafters and masterful shots. You can also used the link fire strategem on three fire prisms to utilise the power of all three, while only exposing one to line of sight. Lastly eldar are all about synergy and force multipliers, so the use of Doom to reroll wounds and Jinx to lower enemy armour saves enables you to choose one enemy unit a turn you really want to see vaporised, and bring your combined power to bear. Knights don't really have a counter to your psychic prowess, and that's an area Eldar are really strong in.

You may find the article below helpful as it outlines the strengths of our individual units, and where they excel. There's also good articles on Goonhammer about force composition, so you could seek more guidance there.

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-craftworlds/#Competitive_Rating

rhazag wrote:
Hi, i will patricipate on a tag team tournament. 500p each player. My team partner will be random.
I thought about using the following list. Shall i use d - scythe over the cannons Or use wraithblades instead of wraithguards?

I haven't experience with using wraithguards but I'd say at the very least you could squeeze in two more guardians to come up to the 500 point limit. When you player larger games a 20 strong guardian unit is a solid choice so it's worth investing in another box if you only currently have one (especially as they're going up in price next week.)

Alternatively you could shave some points off of your wave serpent, as the engines upgrade isn't that worthwhile (you're still going to get where you're going, and your wraiths can't disembark on turn one anyway) If you went with a vanilla scatter laser serpent at 133 points you could include a unit of rangers in addition to everything else you have. At 500 points not a lot else is going to be able to deploy in the enemy's board half, hold an objective and plink away at enemy characters with mortal wounds like they can for a mere 50 points.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Thanks for the link to the article. It's a lot to read but it seems very well written and informative.

Yeah, it's something you can take as reference, don't feel the need to absorb it in one sitting. It's there when you're on battlescribe and putting together a list.

yukishiro1 wrote:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/632655109

I've reposted a synopssis curated by reddit user Chaoticflanagan for any who dont follow the 40k subreddit which can be found here

Overall a mixed bag for us, the main changes seem to be more terrain rule introductions and CP normalisation. I think more interactivity with terrain is a win for the hobby as a whole, and ITC ground floor rules benefits us squishy elven types, however the return of blast plates make my guardian blob and max Dark Reaper squads tremble a little.

Stream summary:

A lot more obscuring terrain - no more drawing LoS through 3 windows.

Much more fun to play with terrain; the terrain will have a fun impact on the game. The battlefield itslelf will become the 3rd player of the game. Not just layering of extra complexities - it's clean and simple but with maximum impact. Most obvious is giving a piece of terrain the "obscuring" tag which blocks line of sight. Different degrees of cover, can go up it, can pass through it, etc. Wanted woods to be different than buildings, then craters, then swamps.

Fixed interactions where a monster can't reach you on the 2nd story because you blocked out the floor. Fixed a lot of the "gamey aspects" of terrain.

Properties will be applied to terrain at the start of the game

More guidelines on how much terrain is on the table

Changes to overwatch and changes to penalties for leaving close combat (mostly through strategems)

Core turn mechanics - remaining the same as 8th

Can spend CP to put units into reserve. You command points are used to do things your general would do as well. Can promote units. Reserve - come in on your board edge, or table edges. Keep things off the board until you want to use them. Gives a boost to melee armies.

Anything Tanks can do Monsters can do if not better.

More balanced missions.

Is random number of shots still a thing? Yes.

Pretty soon after the release of 9th, you'll see Deathwatch reworking.

40k rules team is now making the rules for ALL models - so no more seperate ForgeWorld rules team.

Vigilus books will still be used

Where will i get rules for the new space marines and necrons? In the boxes and future codices.

They are working on new codices.

can i always hit on 6s? Everyone can now hit on 6s.

Missions written with game size in mind. 500pt missions vs 2000pt missions vs 4000pt missions.

Core Rules are a bit longer (8 pages in 8th), some of that is due to expanding the rules and also because there are more examples. Tried to make the rules more concise. A bit longer but still pretty tight. Has a rules appendix - things that happen very rarely and are odd interactions. Put them in an appendix so they aren't in the core rules.

Capped modifiers; never better than +1 or -1.

Changed how flyers interact in the game. Can leave the board, not interact in the same way that infantry and vehicles on the battlefield. Shouldn't be any more gamey things you can do with them. More fun to use and less annoying against them.

Any changes to how moral works? yes. Nothing drastic - introduced 'combat attrition'; and more things that interact with morale. And armies that had morale mechanics are more powerful.

More units added to warhammer legends? Over time, almost certainly. But it will be gradual. No plans for carving great chunks out of codices.

How will command points work? Some armies have easy access to them and others didn't, they wanted to level the playing field. The command point totals are now linked to the size of the battle. Both armies will start with the same amount.

Power levels will be realigned regularly like match points are.

Mortal wounds mechanic? Unchanged.

Will soup still be viable? Yes. But if you want to take cool stuff from 2 codices, you're spending CPs to bring those pieces. Gives Narrative players more CPs to spend and gives competitive players more options for resource management and list tinkering.

Will future codices absorb some of the rules from Psychic Awakening and Vigilus? The new codices will take all the cool stuff from supplements and incorporate them. Not every stratagem may make the cut.

With the changes to Command points, will i still need to include troops in my army? In the same way you do now i guess, but you'll have more flexibility. You don't have to do anything. Right now, you're trying to maximize command points by unlocking as many battalions as possible. But you're not doing that now. Hopefully will see people bringing the models they want to take and not what they feel like they have to take.

What defines a blast weapon and what defines a horde? An appendix will denote a blast weapon. Codices will denote the blast type going forward. (They didn't answer what denotes a horde)

What's your favorite thing about the new addition? Stu: 2 things - 1 is terrain and excited about how terrain impacts a game. The other is the crusade content - those who have a slightly more narative lean for gaming. A method and tool box for telling cool stories over time. Pete: Encouraged by the balanced missions and being on the cutting edge of competitive wargamming and changes to command points to improve flexibility.

Thankfully the eldar powers have manipulated the webway to take forgeworld out of production, at least for a while.

 grouchoben wrote:
3 heavy is the real bottleneck in a batallion, given our preponderance towards that class.

I'm wondering if spearhead/outrider detachments perhaps cost 1cp as opposed to 3 for a battalion, not sure if this has been clarified,

There's a good tactica report up on Tabletop Tactics' youtube featuring a wraith heavy ynnari list vs deathguard if anyone fancies some weekend viewing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXURoSmGCQo&t=2652s

 Sarigar wrote:
I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:

- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.

- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.

- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.

With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.

Seconded, the lack of exarch powers and crafters vacuum makes them look a bit redundant. I get the feeling both the psychic awakening the faction updates were done without a top down consideration of one another which is a bit of a fail. Perhaps in trying to avoid the OP nature of mid 8th Ynarri they felt they could do without. Maybe a tad shortsighted...

Considering a sub to TT though as I like the format and they're pretty entertaining. Haven't played enough to tell if the quality of play is high.

 Sarigar wrote:
BATTALION
1 x 1 Farseer
1 x 1 Warlock
3 x 5 Dire Avengers (Each unit has Exarch with 2 Avenger Catapult and Shredding Fire)
1 x 2 Hornets, Spirit Stones, Hornet Pulse Lasers
3 x 1 Falcon, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Pulse Laser

SPEARHEAD
1 x 1 Autarch
3 x 1 Nightspinner
1 x 5 Dark Reapers (1 is Exarch with Tempest Launcher and reroll 2d6 shots)

AIRWING
3 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, Starcannon, Hawkeye

1996 points
10 CP
Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots

According to some write ups you'd be better off dropping rain of death for crack shot Sar. I'm not a maths head though so have never been able to check his numbers - I'm looking at the Reapers entry below. The maths doesnt account for EC though, however Rapid Shot is apparently still better (+1 shots)

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Eldar(8E)

Strange there doesn't seem to be a way for me to paste it, no biggie. With the Autarch bubble its gona feel like your DRs/ Night Spinners never miss.

If we can deep strike after turn 3 then we get some good value out of 5 rangers right? Maybe my reading is mistaken but it seems they can hoover up any objective your opponent hasn't put units within 9 inches on turns 4+

Another Nick Nanavati game this evening, interesting that one of the top tournament players went with such a plethora of troops - however a lot of the trends that have come up in this thread recently have shown up in his list (wraithlords, harlequin troops.) Admittedly this isn't an official tournament list but it is interesting to see one the world's top players choose to go with such a troop heavy list - repeatedly filling up on Dire Avengers (34 of them plus Asurmen.) He also went with Avenging strike which seems to creep up more often. I need to have a play around on TTS to try it out it seems. And paint more DAs.

Today's leaks confirmed what most probably suspected that outriders/vanguard/spearhead detachments carry a 3cp tax, so my current ulthwe batallion ec/mc spearhead/outrider will need some tailoring.






*edit* as a public service announcement if anyone is curious about TTS its heavily discounted right now on a certain gaseous-form-of-water online retailer

 grouchoben wrote:
Wow, that's an interesting patrol! 159pts on a single troupe eh?

Yeah I'm not gona link it as it's behind their paywall but hopefully he's about to shred John Lennon's Imperial Guard

Gona stick this on at lunchtime when I get done with work so will post how it played out later. It was a "what we know about 9th" game, so with the timing of everything that leaked yesterday I'm curious if they use the leaked ruleset.

For me personally looks like I'll run an Ulthwe patrol plus EC/MS battalion to start with 10cp, first game is scheduled for August first up here.

According to what was dropped yesterday detachment costs are as follows:

Patrol 2cp
Battalion 3 cp
Brigade 4 cp
Vanguard/Spearhead/Outrider 3cp
Supreme Command 0cp
Super Heavy 3cp
Fortification 2 cp
Aux Support 1cp

Interested to see how things will pan out - as there's no need CP wise to take a troops choice you could easily make a mechanised force with just Spearhead/Outrider etc. As I said I'm keen to still run Eldrad as I spent too much time painting him not to play Ulthwe so I'm envisioning an Ulthwe Patrol with a guardian blob and max Reapers squad, then EC battalion or something like that.

Wahapedia entry reads "When this model attempts to manifest a psychic power, it may only manifest the following powers and has access to no others:"

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
sadly appears to be the case I knew it had some particular wording regarding its powers, ho hum maybe the fw update will sort it out

@ Bchop, how did the game of many da pan out ?

John Lennon's guard got a little unlucky early game with his tanks blowing up and Nick used his skyweavers with fire and fade every turn to plink away at the rest of the army pretty safely while his 4++ Asurmen/DA blob took board control, pretty comfy win for the pointy ears. Both players in the post match emphasised the need to have something to contest the board/play the mission in 9th, and Nick's list did that pretty comfortably.

Some other feedback was that tournament players specifically are used to parking single characters in the backfield on objectives comfortably and Look Out Sir has spelled an end to that, Nick forgot about that a few times and lost a few characters as a result.

 Sarigar wrote:
A lot really depends on points, but I definitely have not ruled them out.

Large units such as Shining Spears, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Wraithguard, and/or Guardian squads as potential front line pressure units. They may be susceptible to blast weapons, but I think having some brick unit still will have merit.st.

Given some thought to Guardian blobs out of the webway. Not seen a lot of love for them on forums/reddit but tbh if an opponent wants to level his massed power at a 3++ unit with protect/celestial shield then that sounds like a big win for me. Certainly if they're not throwing long range fire power at Dark Reapers or whatnot. The only downside is that with the changing to targetting, we don't get to pass ablative wounds onto the weapons platform anymore without risking it outright.

1750 points seems like a good benchmark. From looking at the marines points that came out it seems the heavy meta units jumped up by 60- 80% in points (TF cannons/aggressors and cents) while the lesser OP units were in the region of 15- 20%, so perhaps taking something like Vypers which flew under the rader somewhat might be a good value proposition.