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 kingheff wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.

Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.

I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.

problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.

 clodax66 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.

Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.

I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.

problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.

Well, I don't let the FD and DR Aspects deep strike.
My Eldar will dictate the game.
Fire Dragons are always delivered by Falcons or Serpents.
Dark Reapers are positioned in the back field in round 1 (eventually disembarking from a transport) no matter what.

It is all very in game situational, but I like to have Reapers in position to be utilized with Forewarned. Opponents will react accordingly or receive one heck of a surprise when they bring a unit in from reserve.

 clodax66 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.

Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.

I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.

problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.

Damnit, forgot about that, good catch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?

With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?

In all editions I played so far FD's are a suicide squad.
They are now slightly more durable as they got a 3+ save (4+ before).
Generally, I take 2 units of 5 and I count on them to get their jobs done.
They've never disappointed me, neither in friendly games nor in a GT.

 wuestenfux wrote:

With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?

In all editions I played so far FD's are a suicide squad.
They are now slightly more durable as they got a 3+ save (4+ before).
Generally, I take 2 units of 5 and I count on them to get their jobs done.
They've never disappointed me, neither in friendly games nor in a GT.

The only thing I can think of is using Asurman and protect for a 2+/4++, with fortune as well on a unit of ten it would be inefficient to remove them but whatever happens they're unlikely to survive.

I haven't used them since 5th edition, but the concept appears to be the same. Minimum sized units for one shot attempts as previously described. What you want to layer with the Dragons is basically true for nearly any Craftworld unit. Not sure Dragons would be the best suited to stack up.

Well, FD's are still located top priority in my book.

Recently, I battled SW. Two Dreads were approaching quickly through the centre and TWC incl. Wolf Lord were moving fast targeting the units at one of my flanks.
I sent the two FD squads to destroy the Dreads and the Banshees/Scorpions to hold up the TWC for one round.
It worked. My shooting decimated the TWC and the Autarch (jetbike, laser lance) finished off the Lord.
In the meanwhile, the DR and Serpents killed the units in his backfield.
Game over after round five with SW nothing left.

What's your chosen exarch power on your FDs out of interest?

 grouchoben wrote:
What's your chosen exarch power on your FDs out of interest?

Frankly, I played Biel-Tan mostly because I used several Serpents and also the Dire Avengers had some profit.

I'm liking the look of Biel Tan recently, mostly because dire avengers and asurman work very well with it. But the cherry on top is the +2" charge strat on top of swooping dive give Biel Tan spears a 6" charge from the webway which is pretty great.

 kingheff wrote:

With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?

My difficulty with Fire Dragons is that for about 50% more you can get a Wraithguard who has a similar offensive output but is far more durable with 3 T6 wounds vs 1 T3 wound. Whilst the WG is slower, the availability of transports and the Webway stratagem mean this is rarely a problem.

Once they have fired, your opponent only needs moderate small arms fire to remove Fire Dragons. Wraithguard require a lot more effort to shift. The only real advantage of Fire Dragons is that you can fit twice as many in a Transport if you want big squads. However since 8th is an edition that tends to favour MSU, this is rarely a big advantage.

Well, I know that WG is great unit and unit of 5 delivered by a Serpent can dish out a lot of damage.
I used mine with D-scythes but also the cannons can work well.
WG is simply too expensive for my liking.

I usually mount 5 FDs and 5 DAs in one Serpent which serve dual purposes.

I'm more of a banshees guy myself, I normally run 3x5 in a lot of my lists now. They profit more than any other unit from trasnports as they get 3+1 (base size) + 8 + 1d6 + 3 +2d6 threat range. 1cp, if you have it spare, gives them 21+2d6" threat range when disembarking.

They were always a good utility unit but they got possibly one of the best new exarch powers: piercing strike. When you run expert crafters that normally translates to 2 dead aggressors with no overwatch, for example. 58pts for that much utility is a steal.
My latest lists run 15 basnhees and 28 wyches with drazhar and the yncarne, they all combo together pretty convincingly.

I tend to work WG/WB into my lists because I just love the models and I am going for a wraithbone theme coz the fluff bunny inside me...

But, tbh i think they are overcosted for what they bring. With all things, they need guide and doom for wraith cannons to really work. Having only a 3+ in a world of marine AP and re-rolls their T6 they pay premium for just doesnt cut the mustard. The wraithcannons hit like a truck but as usual you need doom+guide to really make it pay for itself.

I don't think the answer is for them to go down in pts however. (although this has made wraith axes a lot more interesting) I think they need better rules, maybe 1 more wound and a 2+ base and better synnergy with wraithlords, wraith seers and spirit seers plus some stratagems. The vigilus concept is great, IMO, but just waay to expensive CP wise. 3CP to give one unit a 4++ just for 1 turn is a bit much. Would like to see something like this as a flat ability for the spirit seer for 1 CP maybe. At least battle focus would be SOMETHING

 grouchoben wrote:
What's your chosen exarch power on your FDs out of interest?

With swift step (3d6 on advance, choose highest) plus a quicken your footslogging FDs have a pretty comfortable threat range of + 35 inches that is hard to see coming

Hi all, I'm looking for some advice on windriders, the windrider host and getting the most out of them. I do know the are not our most competitive choice but I don't tourney or ITC and I like the new jetbike models and already have a couple of vypers(1xBL/SC, 1x2SC), so I thought that now might be the time to get me some jetbike goodness as I'm sold on the models and will be getting them whether they are decent in the game or not.
I've been running expert crafters and masterfull shots recently but I want to look at others instead of expert crafters for a change as I want each host in my collection to have some thing unique about them. In my meta masterfull shots is just too good as we tend to have really quite terrain heavy tables and with lots of primaris around it's priceless for me so I want to keep that just now and it's consistent over all of my hosts/forces.

My warhost part of my collection will ultimately consist of:

I am a few purchases from finishing this off but next on the hit list comes some windriders, farseer and maybe another vyper or 2 to bulk my current 2 out. Any suggestions on load out for the vypers? I'm thinking of 3 with AML+SC or 3 with 2xSC to partner my single BL one who is now my fave unit in the game since PA:BotP, sorry expert crafters I meant
So I guess I'm looking to see if any of you find them usefull/useable and what numbers and weapons are good in/on windrider(SC?) and vyper(AML?) units and what second attribute do you think would suit them best. Even one that might work for the whole warhost above would be amazing to get any suggestions on. I was looking at martial citizenry or maybe webway warriors for the whole host?
Also has anyone tried the windrider host from vigilus and is it worth a punt? Even for a try? I'm looking to try it but I want to have 10-12 widriders and 4-6 vypers, farseer and autarch before I do, so it's a while away, because that 3CP strat needs lots of bodies near that farseer for it to be worth it. But I do feel it could be quite nasty in the right circumstance. Also does anyone know if the strat stacks with shuriken and the 6 to wound becomes -4?
Any and all advice is very welcome.
Cheers, K

I've been running nine vypers in competitive games on TTS recently and they're great.
Cannon and catapults vypers are dirt cheap and easy to make use of hail of doom and superior shurikens.
A saim han outrider with star cannons and the autarch with the relic star Lance is another good combo.
Aeldari missile launchers with the, admittedly expensive, stratagem, for the extra ap are amazing.
I haven't tried windriders but giving scatter lasers a point of ap should make them great for taking down marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The ap does stack with shuriken btw.

If you are referring to hail of doom it specifically states that it does not effect a shuriken's extra AP for rolling a "6".

 kingheff wrote:
I've been running nine vypers in competitive games on TTS recently and they're great.
Cannon and catapults vypers are dirt cheap and easy to make use of hail of doom and superior shurikens.
A saim han outrider with star cannons and the autarch with the relic star Lance is another good combo.
Aeldari missile launchers with the, admittedly expensive, stratagem, for the extra ap are amazing.
I haven't tried windriders but giving scatter lasers a point of ap should make them great for taking down marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The ap does stack with shuriken btw.

How are you giving AP to scat lazors ?

It's tempest of blades, a 3CP strat for the wind rider host detachment from vigilus. To get the most of it I reckon It need's 3-5 units in close proximity to the farseer to really be worth it.

Cheers @kingheff much appreciated. I did look at saim hann but didn't really consider it because I didn't have the right stuff for it also I'm not a fan of the scatter laser, I do like the idea though. I was considering the AML as don't have any and I'm starcannon'd up elsewhere and I thought this maybe the best place for them. -3 ignore cover AML is tasty. As is -2 catapults and cannons if within 12" right enough but I don't want to be that close ideally.
I'm a big fan of Shuriken cannons everywhere and I think the bikes will all have them. The vypers will also more than likely all have underslung shuriken cannon in addition to whatever else I decide to give them.
I think I'm going to build towards 2x5 windrinders and 3 AML/SC vypers for guiding with. Or 6 SC windriders and 2x2 SC vypers is maybe a better starting spot. Hmmm...

Cheers, K

kryczek wrote:
It's tempest of blades, a 3CP strat for the wind rider host detachment from vigilus. To get the most of it I reckon It need's 3-5 units in close proximity to the farseer to really be worth it.

Spoiler:

Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Pick a WINDRIDER HOST FARSEER SKYRUNNER unit from your army. Improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of shooting attacks made by friendly WINDRIDER HOST units within 6" of the unit you picked by 1 until the end of that phase (e.g. AP-1 would become AP-2).

Cheers @kingheff much appreciated. I did look at saim hann but didn't really consider it because I didn't have the right stuff for it also I'm not a fan of the scatter laser, I do like the idea though. I was considering the AML as don't have any and I'm starcannon'd up elsewhere and I thought this maybe the best place for them. -3 ignore cover AML is tasty. As is -2 catapults and cannons if within 12" right enough but I don't want to be that close ideally.
I'm a big fan of Shuriken cannons everywhere and I think the bikes will all have them. The vypers will also more than likely all have underslung shuriken cannon in addition to whatever else I decide to give them.
I think I'm going to build towards 2x5 windrinders and 3 AML/SC vypers for guiding with. Or 6 SC windriders and 2x2 SC vypers is maybe a better starting spot. Hmmm...

Cheers, K

Ahh thanks. Yeah the vigilus stuff is very one and done CP investment and you need to really put all eggs in one basket with his one.
I got the rules for wraith host but the windrider one didint grab me so I forgot about it tbh. I don't own the book.

Is that 3 cp for the strat, or 1 cp to make specialist detachment and 2 cp for the strat?

It's 1 CP for the detachment and three for the strat, you need a dual battalion to use it more than once for sure.
But with nine AML/cannon vypers using the strat, falcons with star cannons, a few other star cannons and a night spinner if I remember correctly, all ignoring cover I killed so many primaris in two turns of shooting my imperial fist opponent conceded before his turn two. I rolled hot with my spinner which helped but those vypers are great for killing marines, firing out 9d6 -2 ap missiles ignoring cover is not something marines enjoy taking!
The warlord trait is great too, especially with the saim Han star cannon detachment. Being able to move and shoot without penalty, so hitting on threes, rerolling ones, charging in to avoid being shot, then being able to fall back, shoot and charge back in again is just fantastic. If you can expose a rhino or drop pod and exploit the tactic it can be game winning.

It's 1 CP for the detachment and three for the strat, you need a dual battalion to use it more than once for sure.
But with nine AML/cannon vypers using the strat, falcons with star cannons, a few other star cannons and a night spinner if I remember correctly, all ignoring cover I killed so many primaris in two turns of shooting my imperial fist opponent conceded before his turn two. I rolled hot with my spinner which helped but those vypers are great for killing marines, firing out 9d6 -2 ap missiles ignoring cover is not something marines enjoy taking!

This is actually what I should try against my IF opponent as well.
He runs an almost infantry list with one or two tanks (vindicator, dread).

Who is fielding pure Craftworld armies as opposed to multi codex armies? I started about 6 months ago adding Yvraine to my Craftworld army, then added a Harlequin Vanguard Detachment, to now building a Harlequin Battalion to accompany to Craftworld detachments. This is what it must feel like to play an Imperial soup army. There are just so many combinations to work through. I am enjoying it, especially with the new Harlequin rules.

At the moment I'm just running craftworlds, I've got some drukhari ready to go but I want to use them mono to start with but I don't have enough painted yet.

My current wraith units run Wrath of the Dead as one of their custom traits....really cuts down on the need for Doom to be essential. Great on cannons and hemlocks, not to mention close combat.

I think wrath of the dead and children of prophecy looks great for three hemlocks in an airwing detachment.

With the Harlequin updates I think Eldar are the most fun to soup now, that's just my opinion. I'm having a lot of fun on TTS running various melee options, with 3 falcons carrying 3 piercing-strike banshee squads as the baseline. I'm in a pretty big competition at the moment with lots of very competitive lists in it, so will report back how it all shakes out.

 grouchoben wrote:
With the Harlequin updates I think Eldar are the most fun to soup now, that's just my opinion. I'm having a lot of fun on TTS running various melee options, with 3 falcons carrying 3 piercing-strike banshee squads as the baseline. I'm in a pretty big competition at the moment with lots of very competitive lists in it, so will report back how it all shakes out.

Nice, I'll be interested to hear how they work out.