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To be honest I find the way this math is formatted pretty confusing and hard to read ; I didn't quite review it all nor have time to do it on my side at the moment, will come back with it at some point later if someone hasn't in the meantime.
But at least this part caught my eye, if I understand it correctly you're giving them a 4+ Sv, as if Shredding Fire were AP-1.
SF is AP-3 on all weapons on all hit rolls, so that last part should read 80/36 ie 2.22, for a total of ~3.64, virtually a full extra wound compared to 2.66 for Bladestorm.
And this is against MEQ, so for sisters while ratios stay similar the difference translates to more dead models.
The maths isnt my own, credit goes to reddit user u/anthropophage. He details the ap as: (from the eldar subreddit)
"Rend against T4 is pretty straightforward. One third of your successful wounds will rend, so you can take all successful wounds as having AP -1."
Goonhammer has a decent article on exarch powers but the bulk of it concerns avenging shots as opposed bs/sf
I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/29 06:54:12
Sorry yeah, me advocating starcannons is predicated on expert crafters and the meta. On double starcannons a reroll to hit and wound works really nice against marines where youre hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, and work so much better vs stealthy/cover than shuri.
The main drawback for star cannons is the d3 damage, at least Vs intercessors, especially with fnp. I think two star cannons fails to kill an iron hands intercessor with the 5++ and 5+++ on average... just but I haven't done the maths. Still do better than shuriken of course! I might just be biased against d3's after my executioner went off in my last game, with a CP reroll, and I rolled a 1 for damage and the repentia made her fnp!
If star cannons were flat 2 they'd be amazing but there they'd definitely need a points increase
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
I love Reapers too, but alas marine lists seem to nuke mine too easily with all their absurdly good no-LoS shooting.
I still rate msu as the way to go for CWE - vibrocannons, warwalkers, vypers, falcons, even wraithlords, etc. I think expert falcons run cheap are amazing now. Love that pulse laser with rerolls. We have so many punchy little units that need proper fire to bring down, and their range is great, allowing for good positioning for backfield deepstrike denial.
I've been experimenting with 3 120pt BL Wraithlords recently, and they've been suprisingly useful for AT and roadbump duties, normally deployed on the edge of my zone and left there to fire and counterassault. They're great Primaris punchers and if they're not prioritised they become bullies in the final rounds. But then I need backfield presence because I like to run lots of banshees and wyches and the yncarne for lots of blitzing.
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
So you're agreeing with me?
Agreed!
Could you please post a link to your list.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
I've also been using D-Spiritseers who are just a straight upgrade to the Wraithlords, but I play ITC and so they just bleed seecondary points unfortunately.
grouchoben wrote: I've been experimenting with 3 120pt BL Wraithlords recently, and they've been suprisingly useful for AT and roadbump duties, normally deployed on the edge of my zone and left there to fire and counterassault. They're great Primaris punchers and if they're not prioritised they become bullies in the final rounds. But then I need backfield presence because I like to run lots of banshees and wyches and the yncarne for lots of blitzing.
I really like Wraithlords and think they are undervalued by a lot of players who are put off by the degrading profile. Yes that is annoying but compared to SM Dreadnoughts they are faster, tougher and can take both 2 heavy guns and an improved melee weapon. I normally run at least 2 in a mech heavy army. My opponent normally expends most of his heavy weapon fire trying to bring down my Wave Serpents or silence my Fire Prisms. The WLs are fast enough to reliably pull off a T2 charge and pack just enough punch to threaten elite units (although hordes will bog them down).
Combine 2-3 with Expert Crafters and they can dish out some serious damage reasonable points. I normally like the following builds.
2 Starcannons. MEQ mulchers.
2 Brightlances. Tank hunters. Normally I don't like single-shot AT weapons but the rerolls from EC make them viable.
2 Shuricannons + Glaive. Fast build built for Advancing and firing before charging. This guy makes an awesome distraction Carnifex.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
Well, I think a single WL is not worth taking.
But it multiplies in effectiveness if one takes three of them.
They can build a decent fire base in the backfield, take care of threats in the back field (deep striking units), and move forward towards the enemy if necessary.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I think a single WL is not worth taking.
But it multiplies in effectiveness if one takes three of them.
I would not necessarily go so far as to say that. It is not that you must field multiple WLs. Rather you need to field them in a list with lots of other hard targets. They are not great in a mixed force but if you are running a mechanised list with plenty of Grav tanks etc, they can work really well.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
I like them as distraction carnifex models with twin shuriken cannons, they're hard to ignore and tend to get prioritised. Wraith seers probably do the job a bit better because of the invulnerable but both work. I did play around with three lords in a ynarri spearhead with yvraine to give them a 5++ but I never got round to painting her up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of underappreciated units, the humble striking scorpion. Are they secretly our best screening unit? A 2+ in cover and -1 to hit in terrain with the right exarch trait. Six wounds for 45 points and the ability to deepstrike if needed? Seems pretty tasty to me, not great offensively but that's not the point, in this case anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/30 10:48:07
Yeah I've just finished painting up my ArtelW Scorpions, and I can't wait to try them in person, rather than on TTS! I like them either with claw and crushing blow or blade and scorpions sting to maximise mandiblasters. They're okay I think,and I sometimes take a single squad for a minimal backfield pressure unit. Hadn't thought about them as screening at all...
I love those artel scorpions, great models, although I really like the current sculpts too, materials aside.
I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
kingheff wrote: I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
True but they are cheaper than SM Scouts for a unit with broadly similar capabilities. Not Troops unfortunately but not a bad way to fill out a Brigade.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
kingheff wrote: I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
True but they are cheaper than SM Scouts for a unit with broadly similar capabilities. Not Troops unfortunately but not a bad way to fill out a Brigade.
Did you read what I wrote about scorpions just above that post?
Talking about scorpions has inspired me, I doubt I'll use this and it may not be easy to pull off effectively but...could be a great little troll detachment. Using the shroud drop in the warlock to impair the senses of something like a knight or a riptide or whatever. At the same time dump the three squads of -2 to hit, 2+ save scorpions in some nearby cover and laugh as the enemy struggles to remove it, unless it's marines of course, but that's marines for you, always spoiling our fun! TS or Grey nights could also screw with this but even if it's not possible to pull this off you still get great objective grabbing for not a lot of points.
Can confirm that sword + shuri cannon WL's are great at being a distraction unit. In fact I've sometimes run them with just the sword and run them across the board. They're surprisingly cheap with that loadout and are just enough of a problem and just tanky enough that your opponent often has to overcommit to dealing with them.
I only wish I properly magnetized my WL's, but they're such a nightmare to do it to.
Speaking of, I assume MSU of War Walkers with BL's are actually fairly decent with expert crafters etc? Again, an instance of annoying to magnetize (and not having enough shuriken cannons) led to me giving them BL's.
Bosskelot wrote: Can confirm that sword + shuri cannon WL's are great at being a distraction unit. In fact I've sometimes run them with just the sword and run them across the board. They're surprisingly cheap with that loadout and are just enough of a problem and just tanky enough that your opponent often has to overcommit to dealing with them.
I only wish I properly magnetized my WL's, but they're such a nightmare to do it to.
Speaking of, I assume MSU of War Walkers with BL's are actually fairly decent with expert crafters etc? Again, an instance of annoying to magnetize (and not having enough shuriken cannons) led to me giving them BL's.
Generally, WL's are too slow and have not enough damage output.
If you keep them at the backfield, they can take on deep strikers.
I think its better to have a mobile army flying circles around the enemy atm.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Absolutel agree. standing on objectives in the backfield, shooting well and threatening counterassaults is how I'ved use them, with some kind of success. If you can spare the second trait, double MLs with deny cover is a really nuce pick for them, allowing them to be used for anti infantry if needed.
grouchoben wrote: Absolutel agree. standing on objectives in the backfield, shooting well and threatening counterassaults is how I'ved use them, with some kind of success. If you can spare the second trait, double MLs with deny cover is a really nuce pick for them, allowing them to be used for anti infantry if needed.
Well, I prefer a more mobile army as it can react much better to tactical moves of the enemy and is hard to grasp.
There is no ''backfield'' then. WL would be simply left behind.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Well while we're on the subject, I'd appreciate everyone's opinion. I've been running the following list for a month now, and I'm finding it really hard to settle on how to outfit the AT elements of the list. It's a very dynamic and aggressive list that can tie up opponents in CC, has a strong late-game piece in the Yncarne who synergises with so many disposable CC units, and has very good penetration, but at the cost of glassy infantry. Its core is as follows:
Cursed Blade DE Batallion:
Drazhar (Warlord)
Basic Succubus (Traitor's Embrace)
3 Raiders
2x10 wyches with 2 gauntlets, powersword and shardnet
1x8 wyches with powersword and shardnet
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect. With expert crafters and masterful shots falcons with AML are great for the points without the sacrifice to movement that vibros have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of wraithlords, I'm thinking two just sitting at the back of the board to score engineers looks like a good investment. Naked, at 80 PTS, they're pretty cheap and they're going to be very tough to remove with shooting, especially if you have a very fast army that can keep other stuff away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/05 14:55:11
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.
Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.
I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.
kingheff wrote:Talking about scorpions has inspired me, I doubt I'll use this and it may not be easy to pull off effectively but...could be a great little troll detachment. Using the shroud drop in the warlock to impair the senses of something like a knight or a riptide or whatever. At the same time dump the three squads of -2 to hit, 2+ save scorpions in some nearby cover and laugh as the enemy struggles to remove it, unless it's marines of course, but that's marines for you, always spoiling our fun! TS or Grey nights could also screw with this but even if it's not possible to pull this off you still get great objective grabbing for not a lot of points.
