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The subject of this thread is as follows:

Which is more "optimal" on a tactical squad, namely, multimeltas or meltaguns?

Meltaguns: 18 inch threat range; fires at full BS when moving

multimeltas: 30 inch threat range when snapshooting, 24 inch threat range when stationary.

Because of the FAQ, multimeltas have been clarified as firing at full BS in the shooting phase after disembarking from a wreck.

The common opinion seems to be that meltaguns are better.

I just don't see it.

I assume that the people who prefer meltaguns are going to tell me that you can move and shoot at full BS.

Here are my thoughts on this:

Yes, the multimelta snapshoots when you move. However, that 24 inch range stationary is still greater than the 18 inch range of a moving meltagun. Not to mention that the 12 inch melta distance of the multimelta reaches as far as a meltagun's entire range.

Which do you prefer and why?

well most of the time in competitve you will see tac squads in the gladius. in there, the tac squads are obj grabbers, and since they are constantly on the move the melta is the better choice. plus if your intent is to sit back and shoot the multi melta, people can just move away from you, with the melta yes they can move away from you but you can chase them without the fear of snapshooting. plus tac squads are weak and anything targeting them is surely going to kill off your squad. multi meltas are also expensive for a one shot trick. atleast the melta is cheap. the multi melta is a one shot thing and if you miss you just waisted a lot of points for nothing in that specific turn. plus no one runs heavy weapons on tacs anyway

 -v10mega wrote:
well most of the time in competitve you will see tac squads in the gladius. in there, the tac squads are obj grabbers, and since they are constantly on the move the melta is the better choice. plus if your intent is to sit back and shoot the multi melta, people can just move away from you, with the melta yes they can move away from you but you can chase them without the fear of snapshooting. plus tac squads are weak and anything targeting them is surely going to kill off your squad. multi meltas are also expensive for a one shot trick. atleast the melta is cheap. the multi melta is a one shot thing and if you miss you just waisted a lot of points for nothing in that specific turn. plus no one runs heavy weapons on tacs anyway

1. Multimelta tac squads in a gladius can ride in rhinos.

2. Multimeltas and meltaguns have exactly the same points cost. It's 10 points either way.

3. And for 3 turns out of the game, in a gladius, that multimelta is rerolling to hit, at least one 1s.

4. Not to mention that this doesn't take into account the army compositions as a whole. If you're moving in terminators to attack my devastator squads, it would be nice to have a 24 inch range, S 8, AP 1 gun in the way, no?

5. Based on your reasoning, wouldn't plasma guns be better than meltaguns pretty much most of the time?

So, yeah. That's food for thought.

I’m going to take the cop-out answer and say “Both”

But I like full 10 man tac squads.

My tac squads spend a lot of time on the move. They want to be in 12” double tap range, and it takes some effort to stay there. So the 12” actual range of the melta gun meshes well with the rest of the squad.

I feel it’s worth including the MM in the squad for the times I’m downfield (almost always) but not actively disembarking from a rhino/pod. With the currant rules allowing each model to check to see if it’s moved, heavies in tac squads got a lot better. You can have the bulk of the squad wheel around the heavy, who can stand still to fire. This is more relevent for squads where the bolters and the special/heavy can affect the same thing. MMs tend to shoot at things immune to bolt guns. But this style of move can help get the shorter range meltagun a/o the sarge’s combi and a krack grenade into optimal range to fire alongside the MM.

The meltagun gets to work on the alpha strike. The guys are going to pile out of the pod/rhino, line up their shots, and try to kill something. They may or may not get to live to see another turn. But they get their one good shot off. MMs don’t get that shot. Well, they can snap shot, but I never count on that. On subsequent turns, the MM has a number of perks. But for the all-important first shot, it doesn’t. And in the rocket-tag meta we play in, that first shot needs to count. If you are playing a MSU spam list and have to pick one, I feel this is the better choice. If I just wanted a single heavy in a 5 man squad, I’d take a LC and camp some backfield objective. But if I’m moving forward to get objectives, I want a gun that can actually work on the move.

Nevelon wrote:The meltagun gets to work on the alpha strike.

Yes. But then I question the use of a meltagun. If you're running a gladius strikeforce battle company, you can put combimelta sarge, a multimelta and a meltagun in that drop pod.

But then the trick is not scattering out of range, which is definitely a possibility. Sure, you may not scatter completely out of range, but out of melta range? That's much more likely for the combimelta and meltagun.

If you're running skyhammer, then multimelta devastators definitely seem like a thing.

I think that multimeltas are definitely better in rhinos simply because of the range. The meltagun can fire full BS up to 12 inches. The MM might have to snapshot, but it gets a shot up to 24 inches. The meltagun gets no shots beyond 12 inch range.

The guys are going to pile out of the pod/rhino

That's just it, though. If you're in a rhino, you don't have to disembark to fire the MM. And if your opponent forces you to get out of the rhino due to wreck, you can still fire at full BS the next turn, assuming you don't get shaken or pinned.

Meltaguns are probably better in a drop pod, though. I'll give you that. If you're doing drop pods, though, I'm inclined to think that grav is better anyway from a pod, though.

Gravcannons are so much better than a multimelta its crazy. Except against SHW I guess.

Martel732 wrote:
Gravcannons are so much better than a multimelta its crazy. Except against SHW I guess.

I'm not really sure about that. A multimelta is 10 ppm. Gravcannons are 35 ppm. The gravcannon is definitely better, but the multimelta requires much less of a points commitment.

The gun is largely superior. The snapshot penalty for the heavy comes up too often, and also stops the squad from assaulting to beat up weak guys or hold up strong ones. If you're going to have a half-squad sit around with a heavy weapon, you might as well give them a lascannon so they can at least shoot what they want.

In a world where maelstrom is a thing and every event ever includes it in some form or fashion, movement is very important, and standing still to shoot is a big drawback.

Multimeltas are largely crap vs vehicles now anyway.

my people dont even use meltas on the tac squad, its always grav cannons. i see meltas a lot more because we have a drop pod meta. i guess the mm is good i just dont like them

Scattering out of melta range for a pod should almost never happen. Worse case scenerio:

Place pod 1” away from target
Scatter 12” away by rolling boxcars
(so we are 13” away)
Disembark 6”
6” melta range
so we end up being just 1” shy, in the absolute worse case. In the 35/36 other times you don’t roll double sixes, you should be exactly in range. Pod melta is reliable as you can hope for. I’ll agree that grav can work better for a number of targets, but somethings still need the melta lovin’

Tack relentless on MMs and most of their drawbacks go away. Skyhammer is good for that. You can also stick a capheractii captain in the squad to give the S&P to fire out of the pod.

Rhinos tend to be driving around. IIRC if the transport moves, the guys inside count as moving. So shooting out the top hatch works fine if you are stationary. If someone drops down next to you first turn (and doesn’t pop the rhino) I can totally see staying the the box and shooting out. If you want to rhino rush forward and treat it like a bunker, that could work. Might as well take a razor for that job though. I prefer my tacs out on the table getting stuck in. Sitting in the rhino might be relatively safe, but hampers the firepower of the squad.

But as noted, I take full 10 man squads. They get a lot more milage boltering things down then just popping a few shots out of the ride. YMMV.

Multimeltas are weapons that require you to get up close to the enemy to make full use of them but also penalize you for moving up to do so. On models without relentless they... suck.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The gun is largely superior. The snapshot penalty for the heavy comes up too often, and also stops the squad from assaulting to beat up weak guys or hold up strong ones. If you're going to have a half-squad sit around with a heavy weapon, you might as well give them a lascannon so they can at least shoot what they want.

In a world where maelstrom is a thing and every event ever includes it in some form or fashion, movement is very important, and standing still to shoot is a big drawback.

These points make sense. But let's look at it from a slightly different angle:

1. That lascannon costs twice as much as a multimelta or meltagun.

2. What are you wanting to assault that you had to shoot with a melta? Against vehicles, you can equip sarge with meltabombs and use MM guy to throw a grenade (for less points than a lascannon). Against TEQs, the multimelta is probably better because you can fire it before they get in range to assault. And against vehicles, there's also the snapshots you get against the vehicle before you get into assault range.

The Melta Gun is way better. You can move and fire and that's huge. The Multi Melta hamstrings the entire squad and even if you combat squad you spend the first half of the game moving into a position and hoping you don't die.

Traditio wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The gun is largely superior. The snapshot penalty for the heavy comes up too often, and also stops the squad from assaulting to beat up weak guys or hold up strong ones. If you're going to have a half-squad sit around with a heavy weapon, you might as well give them a lascannon so they can at least shoot what they want.

In a world where maelstrom is a thing and every event ever includes it in some form or fashion, movement is very important, and standing still to shoot is a big drawback.

These points make sense. But let's look at it from a slightly different angle:

1. That lascannon costs twice as much as a multimelta or meltagun.

You don't need to move up to make full use of a Lascannon.

I'm thinking it depends on a) the purpose of the tac squad and b)the rest of your army

If the plan for the tac's is just to trundle about in Rhino's and nab objective I'd come down on the side of the Gun, especially in Gladius or the other formation that lets you hop in and out of transports, the Rhino will more or less make up the range difference

If the plan for the tac's is to take and hold objectives in your table half / sit still and blast then the Multi comes out on top

I think I would err on the side of the Gun in a vacuum, the shorter range I think outweight the peril of snapshots

Traditio wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The gun is largely superior. The snapshot penalty for the heavy comes up too often, and also stops the squad from assaulting to beat up weak guys or hold up strong ones. If you're going to have a half-squad sit around with a heavy weapon, you might as well give them a lascannon so they can at least shoot what they want.

In a world where maelstrom is a thing and every event ever includes it in some form or fashion, movement is very important, and standing still to shoot is a big drawback.

These points make sense. But let's look at it from a slightly different angle:

1. That lascannon costs twice as much as a multimelta or meltagun.

2. What are you wanting to assault that you had to shoot with a melta? Against vehicles, you can equip sarge with meltabombs and use MM guy to throw a grenade (for less points than a lascannon). Against TEQs, the multimelta is probably better because you can fire it before they get in range to assault. And against vehicles, there's also the snapshots you get against the vehicle before you get into assault range.

As for whether a lascannon or other heavy is better will change based on a hundred variables such as matchup, lists, and deployment. Obviously if someone pods a bunch of melee dreads in front of you, both the melta guns and multimeltas would be preferred over the lascannon, for example.

As for what you're assaulting? A vehicle with rear armor 10 that the melta fails to kill for one. The melta shot may also change the math in your favor for a follow-up assault against: Anything with an armor-save at all, especially other marines, honor guard, etc, anything t4 or less with fnp, like iron hands in a fist of medusa with an apothecary, sanguinary priest, or endurance for 3+ or even 2+ fnp on a squad, tau broadsides or crisis suits, which are actually a rough combat for a group of bland marines, and a suit getting removed can turn the tide.

But really that question boils down to "how often does a s8ap1 shot help you out pre-combat? I don't know, how often does it for you?

1. It doesn't really have great field control. Nobody is scared of 1 shot within 24". I'll take my chances on that to get close, thanks.
2. Melta Gun actually works on the Alpha Strike.
3. The Melta Gun lets you move or charge with it.
4. If you want 10 man Tactical Squads because you're apparently masochistic like that, it takes the space of the Grav-Cannon.

I could see Multi Meltas working in a Gladius with a Rhino and scout (white scars/Raptors). The heavy weapon itself is pretty cheap for what it is.

I generally take my melta in legion of the damned squads who can take a multi-melta, meltagun and combi melta or Grav in a 5 man squad. They are pretty much melta specialists for SM.

If I had to take one or the other, meltagun any day.

It synergises with the Sergeant's combi, and with the squad's movement.
It can be used in a transport far better, moving fast towards dedicated targets.
You can relocate more efficiently than the multimelta (the multimelta might get two shots as it moves up compared to the meltagun's one, but the gun is more likely to hit on 4/6 than 2x1/6.
Your melta should be podded anyways, so range isn't an issue.
The multimelta takes up the gravcannon slot, which is ultimately superior (and this is coming from someone with no gravcannons, save on Centurions)

Plasma cannons and multimeltas are some of the worst SM heavy weapons on non-Relentless platforms. The plasma can't even snapfire, and the multimelta requires you to move, yet moving will cause snapfire.

TL;DR - 9/10, I'd want the meltagun.

Attach Cataphractii Terminator Captain. Slow and Purposeful confers to the unit. Going to try this with my IF lascannon devastators.

Traditio wrote:


But then the trick is not scattering out of range, which is definitely a possibility. Sure, you may not scatter completely out of range, but out of melta range? That's much more likely for the combimelta and meltagun.

It's almost impossible to scatter out of melta range if you're able to put the Drop Pod 1" from the thing you want gone. You have a maximum scatter of 12" and then a move of 6" from the new position, meaning you'd have to have a 12" scatter to end up out of range. That's 1/48 when taking into account that you'll roll a hit 33% of the time. It's certainly possible that there is terrain or bubblewrap complicating things, but it's still hardly a problem. You're also hitting on 3+ as opposed to 6+.

Why is anyone using a tac squad to begin with, anyway?

The Gladius, duh!

Grav cannons in Tac squads are a waste of points IMHO. I run 2x multimelta in one of by gladius dev squads, just to sit and shoot from the rhino after scout moving... which is pretty solid for only 20pts vs 70 for two Grav...

Grav is an all my bikes, where it is much better.

Also, I lean towards more plasma/combi plas for the tacs- using the saved points from not taking grav cannons. Very good when you get to reroll 1's for 1/2 the game.

Waste of points?
The Grav Cannon is a waste of points on Tacticals?
That's the only heavy weapon worth a darn on Tactical squads!

Grav cannons might be crazy expensive, but they put out the dakka and work well on the move, both of which tac squads need. I’ve enjoyed mine. Not sure I’d spam them, as that would eat up a ton of points. But I got some milage out of it when it hit the table.

 Nevelon wrote:
work well on the move

Though, you only get 3 shots at 12"

 koooaei wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
work well on the move

Though, you only get 3 shots at 12"

I try to keep my tac squads within 12” of the enemy anyway, so the range is not that bad. And 3 grav shots, with the amp will still mess up most things lives.

I’m an Ultramarine, so it’s easier for me then most to get some sort of re-rolls on my tacs. So those three shots have a pretty good chance of actually landing.

They might be crazy expensive. I might not be happy with their inclusion in the game, but they do blow things up well!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Waste of points?
The Grav Cannon is a waste of points on Tacticals?
That's the only heavy weapon worth a darn on Tactical squads!

This is the answer to this thread.