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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
IMO, if you're going Evil Sunz, the only way to get actual good mileage out of their trait is to embrace the standard Waagh, so Warboss on Warbike is one hundo percent the way to go. the extra 2" to 3" move turn 1 enables the sunz to employ a turn 1 tempo waagh strategy that's basically inaccessible with anyone else.


I'm not gonna count on the Warboss keyword surviving errata (which I assume is coming when the "proper" codex lands. Obviously you can play around with it in the meantime, but I don't see it being a long-term feature for the datasheet.

 koooaei wrote:
 Dendarien wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.


Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.


Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.


Boosta-blasta and Bikers do compare pretty closely in terms of durability. 75 points of bikers for 9 T5 4+ wounds, with -1 to hit, vs. 80 points for 8 T6 4+ wounds with Ramshackle. So the variables are +/-1 point of Toughness, +/-1 Wound, and Ramshackle vs. -1 to hit against shooting. Shooting-wise they definitely perform very differently of course.
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy





 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.

Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.

My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.

in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.

Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.

Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.

Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)

Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry..
Oy, how about Blood Axes or where they so sneaky they slipped your mind
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 koooaei wrote:
 Dendarien wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.


Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.


Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.

Bikers do work nice in a list with thrakka, though, as they benefit from both waaaghs.


Bikers have the numbers to lock units in combat and outnumber opponents on objectives. They now also have the attacks to fight chaff off an objective. A buggy has almost no chance of flipping a objective, but warbikers can easily take one from something like a unit of blightlords, guardsmen or enemy kommadoz.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

 Jidmah wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
 Dendarien wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.


Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.


Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.

Bikers do work nice in a list with thrakka, though, as they benefit from both waaaghs.


Bikers have the numbers to lock units in combat and outnumber opponents on objectives. They now also have the attacks to fight chaff off an objective. A buggy has almost no chance of flipping a objective, but warbikers can easily take one from something like a unit of blightlords, guardsmen or enemy kommadoz.


Yeah I think Bikers will be there to shove small units off objectives and be tough to remove in return. Buggies are really for fire support, but can do decent melee if they need to.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Bikers' performance quickly degeades the more they loose. 1 wound blasta is still putting the same hurt - even shooting in mellee. As for out-scoring something, perhaps numbers are better here. My point was not about bikers being bad, but about them being not mandatory in a buggy list. Also, while 3 bikers have their pros and cons and compete against a buggy, 6 bikers are starting to get into morale and footprint issues vs 2 buggies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The good part is that buggirs are so cheap (point-wise) and good, you can put 3 bikers and a buggy on a flank and have a more versatile force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 15:59:42


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Dendarien wrote:
Yeah I think Bikers will be there to shove small units off objectives and be tough to remove in return. Buggies are really for fire support, but can do decent melee if they need to.


The main reason I want bikers in my buggy list is this stratagem:

Spoiler:


With the oval bases biker units tend to have huge foot prints, but because they are faster than buggies and can fit in places where buggies cannot, they can easily cover a large area. With some careful positioning you can basically have all your buggies and koptas gain -1 to hit in your first turn. IMO this is superior to burning through a KFF in every way, and if you feel like it you can even do both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
Bikers' performance quickly degeades the more they loose. 1 wound blasta is still putting the same hurt - even shooting in mellee. As for out-scoring something, perhaps numbers are better here. My point was not about bikers being bad, but about them being not mandatory in a buggy list. Also, while 3 bikers have their pros and cons and compete against a buggy, 6 bikers are starting to get into morale and footprint issues vs 2 buggies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The good part is that buggirs are so cheap (point-wise) and good, you can put 3 bikers and a buggy on a flank and have a more versatile force.


I'm talking about running a full unit of 9, and their job is a completely different one from what buggies do. There also is the issue that units of multiple buggies might very well be dead for most of them, so bringing more buggies isn't always an option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:04:22


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cloud of Smoke requires you to target a vehicle Jidmah.

Bikers can't use that strat.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:

Seems decently solid, though you'll want to get a warboss in the mix asap to actually get waaagh benefits. For now I'd say relic+trait up the painboy with the killa klaw.


DKK on the painboi is da killa klaw. trait being propa killy. The problem with the warboss is the awkward 90 points without any gear. if I give him a klaw or squig he prevents me from getting the 5 stormboys.

Having no waaagh is significant though, but stormboys are already the cheapest fast attack option. any suggestions?
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.

Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:11:57


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.

Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?


They do - I think Jidmah wanted to use the bikers to buff up the buggies.

You could use it on a wartrike.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




enni wrote:
pepi55 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.


How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?

Spoiler:

++ Goffs Patrol Detachment (...) ++

HQ:
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath + Da Jump

Troops:
10 Boiz (90)
10 Boiz (90)

Elites:
5 Nobz (105) - Beeg Choppa/Choppa, Trukkboiz
1 Painboy (75) - Grot Orderly, DKK, Proper Killy

Fast Attack:
5 Stormboiz (55)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk (70)


Not sure about the relics/traits.


your odds for rolling 9 or higher on 3d6 is 74%

add in a reroll and it becomes 93%


I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.

They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...

hits per 100 points

dread: 7*4/6*100/85 = 5.5
3 kanz: 12*3/6*100/120 = 5



That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dendarien wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.

Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?


They do - I think Jidmah wanted to use the bikers to buff up the buggies.

You could use it on a wartrike.


Yeah it's a great strat.

Wartrike is the ideal target tbh as you said, as it has look out sir as well.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pepi55 wrote:


That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...


Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






tulun wrote:
Cloud of Smoke requires you to target a vehicle Jidmah.

Bikers can't use that strat.


Eh. Koptas it is then.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ
-something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)

Am I reading that right? 6 Dakkajets? Ho boy.
I normally play Bloodaxes but that setup does sound pretty fun. I'll have to get some warbikers in the future. How is the Boomdakka Snazzwagon? I picked up the Shokkjump Dragsta since I loved the model and I've been considering getting another buggy in the future.



haha no, 1 dakkajet with 6 supa-shootas, sorry.

BDSW competes with the squigbuggy directly (same exact profile S5 AP-2 D2) but is a little bit more firepower I believe (definitely more shots but most of the shots from the rukkatrukk are +1 to hit) and is -1 to hit base while the rukkatrukk is indirect fire.

I think they work out to fairly comparable but you squeeze a little more out of the BDSW in a speedwaaagh freeboota list because it's not already at +1 so it benefits from Freebootas.

I like pairing warbikes, BDSW and Dakkajets together because it unifies me into a T5-T6 4+ -1 to hit profile and the only thing that presents a 'soft' target is the trukks, which, please shoot my trukks lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
tulun wrote:
Cloud of Smoke requires you to target a vehicle Jidmah.

Bikers can't use that strat.


Eh. Koptas it is then.


Yeah, koptas make the best unit to center smoke cloud on. Basically if you're gonna make use of Smoke Cloud, take 3x or 6x deffcoptas and use it to guard all your non-BDSW buggies.

And the bonus is, the stratagem doesn't even delete the unit that used it from the game after 1 turn! WOW! VALUETOWN!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.

Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?


TBF it would be less value on bikers as they already have -1 to hit. Minor inconvenience, but, what can you do - just position the buggies that need to protect with 1 in the center.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:13:37


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
pepi55 wrote:


That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...


Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.


I love the models too :(

I will probably still try and run them in mek lists just to see if I stumble upon something they might be useful for...
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






pepi55 wrote:
enni wrote:
pepi55 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.


How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?

Spoiler:

++ Goffs Patrol Detachment (...) ++

HQ:
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath + Da Jump

Troops:
10 Boiz (90)
10 Boiz (90)

Elites:
5 Nobz (105) - Beeg Choppa/Choppa, Trukkboiz
1 Painboy (75) - Grot Orderly, DKK, Proper Killy

Fast Attack:
5 Stormboiz (55)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk (70)


Not sure about the relics/traits.


your odds for rolling 9 or higher on 3d6 is 74%

add in a reroll and it becomes 93%


I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.

They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...

hits per 100 points

dread: 7*4/6*100/85 = 5.5
3 kanz: 12*3/6*100/120 = 5



That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...


They have more wounds for the points and are also equipped with BS4+ ranged weaponry - remember you're comparing to a dread with no guns.

End of the day they do different stuff, kanz and dreads. Kanz you're gonna use as a 240-330pt bomb unit (personally I think upgrading at least *some* to have rokkits makes good sense) and dreads you're going to use to take heat off of other turn 2 tempo standard waaagh units - "if you shoot that bonebreaka/squighog boyz/trukk full of mean stuff the 7A pure melee dread is gonna crash"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






SemperMortis wrote:
pepi55 wrote:


That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...


Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.


We didn't have that many grot units and from what we had:
- Mek gunz were amazing - still ok in solo units or with makari
- Makari - was just a fluffy character and now can be used to run mek gun batteries, so, ok in this role. He can also grot shield but it's gona be fixed.
- Killa kanz were very underwhilming but are kinda ok now with buffs paired with point reduction.
- Grots were quite underwhelming on paper but I used to run 10 of them in trucks with good results. At first it was a know-how for protecting deep striking meganobz from overwatch (dark angel plasma with banner and Azrael) and this "shoot enemy reserves" Strategem. But than I quickly found out that a cheap scoring unit with small models in a trukk is great on it's own. And you're likely taking an infantry squad anywayz. With t3 they're now a bit more durable. Run more often but it's much less important for a min squad than t3. Why not run boyz? Well, 40 extra pts now. I don't know, maybe shootas are still ok but they kinda do the same for more points,are harder to hind behind a fence and don't trigger the "I'm gona shoot a lazcannon at a grot...what have I done wrong in this game?!" from your opponent.
And yeah, sometimes the enemy HAS to shoot his lazcannons and meltas at grots. This thing alone is able to justify taking grots for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:28:22


 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

What's the deal with the squigbuggy being "no longer available online"? Website error, or getting repackaged?
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Thoughts on Trukkboyz with Squighogs in Snakebite? Something like this.

Snakebite Patrol:
Mozdrog - 170
10 Boyz (Trukkboyz) - 90
Trukk - 70
5 Squighog Boyz - 125
5 Squighog Boyz - 125
580

Snakebite Patrol:
Beastboss on Squigosaur (Beastgob/Beasthide Mantle) - 145
10 Boyz (Trukkboyz) - 90
Trukk - 70
5 Squighog Boyz - 125
5 Squighog Boyz - 125
555

1135 points, 865 remaining for your third detachment of whatever. Stay mono Snakebites with another Patrol/Batallion with another tricked out Beastboss on Squig + third Trukkboyz + 2x 10 Grots + Kill Rig + some MSU Kommandoz/Stormboyz?
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




United Kingdom

 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.

Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.



i thought the same, that if you bring squighogs you should go snake bites, but i decided to do some math hamming.

i had a full squad of 6 squig boys charge and attack shining spears (don't ask me why i chose a unit at random)


i only used their basic melee profile of 3 attacks with the stika weapon +1s -2ap 2d

Goffs did 18 attacks - 15 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
Snakebites did 18 attacks - 12 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed

in the end there wasn't much difference goffs get more hits but snake bites get more wounds from less hits,

So for me, squig boys can be either goffs or snakebites, clan kulture of an army with squigboys in the list will be determined by other units/stratagems/relics/warlordtraits





SMASH  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Scactha wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.

Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.

My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.

in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.

Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.

Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.

Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)

Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry..
Oy, how about Blood Axes or where they so sneaky they slipped your mind


Blood Axes can get two Warboss-equivalent HQ models into one detachment, which is very nice IMO, and have two ways to get multiple units *of any size* into strategic reserves, through I've got a Plan Ladz and Dead Sneaky. If big bricks of boyz are viable for any army I'd say they're viable in blood axes just off the back of I've got a Plan Ladz. Dead Sneaky is a little redundant but does allow for Action shenanigans.

I'd play blood axes as a big huge wide board control list. heck, maybe even make the boyz blocks shoota boyz, wild hot take there but I think it gets rid of some of the inherent unreliability of having to make the charge (main purpose of the unit is just to take up lots of space midboard anyway).

Basically just take as many kommandos as you think you can reliably get into some kind of cover midboard during deployment, Snikrot to make them more threatening, a boss of some description to pop waagh (probably a foot boss as he might as well be one of the Ive Got A Plan Ladz Ladz or possibly a squigosaur boss just so you have the option of a T1 waagh if you absolutely need it) and then whatever your IGAPL Ladz are going to be.

You're going to have a scoring-heavy, bodies-heavy, objective-focused list so I would deprioritize anti-heavy firepower personally, just a couple of the heavy melee weapons for each kommando squad, maybe PK/Breacha Ram/Distraction Grot/Bomb Squig so you can hurt heavy targets with kommandos if you get into them, but priority should be to clear out any other infantry that your opponent could use to score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kingbbobb wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.

Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.

Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.



i thought the same, that if you bring squighogs you should go snake bites, but i decided to do some math hamming.

i had a full squad of 6 squig boys charge and attack shining spears (don't ask me why i chose a unit at random)


i only used their basic melee profile of 3 attacks with the stika weapon +1s -2ap 2d

Goffs did 18 attacks - 15 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
Snakebites did 18 attacks - 12 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed

in the end there wasn't much difference goffs get more hits but snake bites get more wounds from less hits,

So for me, squig boys can be either goffs or snakebites, clan kulture of an army with squigboys in the list will be determined by other units/stratagems/relics/warlordtraits






Yeah, offensively theyre exactly the same. Defensively you get the Snakebites trait for free if you go snakebites.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:58:52


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 koooaei wrote:
I think kanz are fine. A squad of 6 is quite 240 base and you can throw them in the enemy face with a tellyportas and wrekkin speed now. They also have a smaller base than dreads


I like a unit of 5... gets around Blast, costs just 200 points, and thanks to the LD buff, they're not as likely t head for the hills when a single Kan drops. That's a clanky wall of metal for, what, 8 pts a wound? And which mitigates Autocanon/Heavy Bolter damage to just 1 damage pings while, at the same time, aren't so scary to draw true anti-tank fire? not bad! Units of 3 are also fantastic at being cheap-ish, are borderline morale-proof then, and still scary. They're comparable to MegaNobz, really, with 1 worse save vs more wounds. I'm not HYPE about them like, say, Bikers, but I can see them being used just fine now.

They're not going to survive an engagement with, you know, *Terminators*, but short of that, they'll get work done, I think!

(Edit)

A trio with basic BigShootas is 120, vs a unit of Intercessors for 100, 115 with a melee boosting weapon. I think that's Advantage: Orks, personally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 18:07:59


 
   
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So i've been brainstorming a blood axes list with a Stompa, and ran across a snag with I've got a Plan Ladz. I wanted to use it to put a stompa, bonebreaka, and 3 deff dreads into reserves. However, the way I'm reading this, it appears as though the deff dreads would split once I deploy them the first time so I'd only be able to put 1 of them into reserves. Am I reading this correctly?

Deff dreads datasheet: "After this unit is set up on the battle field for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit."

   
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What is everyone thinking for the best size for biker units? 4 or 5 seems good to avoid morale and footprint issues.
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
pepi55 wrote:
enni wrote:
pepi55 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.


How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.

Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?

Spoiler:

++ Goffs Patrol Detachment (...) ++

HQ:
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath + Da Jump

Troops:
10 Boiz (90)
10 Boiz (90)

Elites:
5 Nobz (105) - Beeg Choppa/Choppa, Trukkboiz
1 Painboy (75) - Grot Orderly, DKK, Proper Killy

Fast Attack:
5 Stormboiz (55)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk (70)


Not sure about the relics/traits.


your odds for rolling 9 or higher on 3d6 is 74%

add in a reroll and it becomes 93%


I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.

They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...

hits per 100 points

dread: 7*4/6*100/85 = 5.5
3 kanz: 12*3/6*100/120 = 5



That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.

Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...


They have more wounds for the points and are also equipped with BS4+ ranged weaponry - remember you're comparing to a dread with no guns.

End of the day they do different stuff, kanz and dreads. Kanz you're gonna use as a 240-330pt bomb unit (personally I think upgrading at least *some* to have rokkits makes good sense) and dreads you're going to use to take heat off of other turn 2 tempo standard waaagh units - "if you shoot that bonebreaka/squighog boyz/trukk full of mean stuff the 7A pure melee dread is gonna crash"


Ah okay I knew kanz were supposed to fill some niche. Good. Now I know what to do with them... Will have a 3rd list soon that focuses on walkers.
   
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 Dendarien wrote:
What's the deal with the squigbuggy being "no longer available online"? Website error, or getting repackaged?


Various streamers marinesplaining that 5x buggies will break the meta in half probably got everyone to clear out the stock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dendarien wrote:
What is everyone thinking for the best size for biker units? 4 or 5 seems good to avoid morale and footprint issues.


I don't think that 9 will have footprint issue and you can still reasonable arrest models with them - even the suicidal fallback stratagem doesn't get marines out of a bike circle. It's also not that trivial to make them fail morale in the first place and if someone uses stratagems or wargear to do so, you can still just auto-pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BDBurrow wrote:
So i've been brainstorming a blood axes list with a Stompa, and ran across a snag with I've got a Plan Ladz. I wanted to use it to put a stompa, bonebreaka, and 3 deff dreads into reserves. However, the way I'm reading this, it appears as though the deff dreads would split once I deploy them the first time so I'd only be able to put 1 of them into reserves. Am I reading this correctly?

Deff dreads datasheet: "After this unit is set up on the battle field for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit."



Sounds right, yeah. Maybe you can replace your dreads with kanz or scrapjets for your plan?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 18:34:01


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 the_scotsman wrote:

haha no, 1 dakkajet with 6 supa-shootas, sorry.

BDSW competes with the squigbuggy directly (same exact profile S5 AP-2 D2) but is a little bit more firepower I believe (definitely more shots but most of the shots from the rukkatrukk are +1 to hit) and is -1 to hit base while the rukkatrukk is indirect fire.

I think they work out to fairly comparable but you squeeze a little more out of the BDSW in a speedwaaagh freeboota list because it's not already at +1 so it benefits from Freebootas.

I like pairing warbikes, BDSW and Dakkajets together because it unifies me into a T5-T6 4+ -1 to hit profile and the only thing that presents a 'soft' target is the trukks, which, please shoot my trukks lol.

Oh that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the tip! I'll keep an eye out for the BDSW, Buggies were often out of stock at my last store. Can't wait for the Codex to release since I'm really looking forward to trying out some Mechanized lists with Evil Sunz and Blood Axes.
   
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regarding ""Cloud of Smoke"; does the unit that is choose for the stratagem protected as well?
   
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Yes.
And also, seems that you can pop the cloud of smoke on a Trike. Which is kinda fluffy since as a boss, he's supposed to pop the highest amount of smoke orkily possible.
   
 
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