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Guys, please try to put some actual effort into your lists. I am sure I am not the only person tired of seeing constant posts saying "hey guys, what do you think of my totally original list of scatter bikes, warp spiders, and wraithknights? Dur dur dur"

Just my two cents as some one who actually looked at the other pages in the codex. .........am. I the only one that feels this way?

Crying about Eldar long since overtook the Eldar themselves as a premier source of pointless threads.

"Not playing with the units I want you to use" is not the same as "not putting effort into your list".

I think you may have missed the point of my post which was to criticize the player base that does a shallow copy/paste of everyone else's lists and then claims that they worked hard to design the list. I don't care if they use my favorite units at all, it would just be nice to see something other than the spam lists that are making Eldar into this horrifying brotherhood that no one wants to play against.

I think the internet creates a lot of confirmation bias and acts as an echo chamber for what is good or bad in 40k. This causes a lot of people believing certain models are good while the others are suboptimal (aka bad). Humans often like to be competitive so using anything other than what is optimal can be thought to be playing fluffy or pulling punches. That being said I don't think in practice people actually play with only the very best units as with a hobby like 40k, a lot of work is put into getting models painted up so people are often willing or wanting to play with their favorite models despite having less than optimum rules. Also people might like using X but defending that choice can be difficult when people like to jump in repeating the same internet "wisdom" about Y being the best thing since sliced bread while X is a rolling dumpster fire.

For example I love my Flash Gitz. They are a lot of fun for me to use in game, they are in every list I run basically, and at times they have been the MVP unit in my games. Very few on the internet will go to bat for Flash Gitz as being good units and many are quick to point out their multitude of flaws. Making a list with them in it will probably result in people saying "why are you taking Flash Gitz, you should use Meganobz, Tankbustas, or Warbikers". Its easier to make and defend a list with all the "power units" than to try and make lists with the "weaker stuff" while still trying to be relatively competitive.

I play all sorts of Eldar. I like to put my Dark Reapers on the field and mass shoot S: 8 Shots down the board. I also like to zoom my crimson hunters around the board. I tried the Falcon formation once with the no scatter deep strike but it didn't really work very well (though that could be because I was playing against crons).

Now if you are asking Eldar players to play things like Banshees and Striking Scorpions then you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you don't like the template of netlists, don't look at internet lists. The template of Scatbikes, Wraithknights and Warp Spiders is effective and proven, so why wouldn't people familiarize themselves with the units that have been lauded as the top choices? They can make a decision for themselves afterwards if they're a new player, or they've agreed with the decision if they're a seasoned player. Having the netlist available and widespread gives them a great jumping off point, even if it's not a special snowflake list of Bright Lance Bikes, War Walkers and Infiltrating Serpent Spam.

I got bored commenting on the same lists over and over again, so I don't frequent the Army List subforum. It's just that simple.

Well, I shelved my Eldar during the 6th ed after winning the RTTs I have attended. They remain shelved. Necrons are fun to play. Players are complaining about them but not too much when compared with Eldar.

Nearly all armies have a cookie cutter build that can be used in at least a semi competitive way. Experimenting outside these lists might win you a game or two but might lose you a few too.
Some people don't like to lose and will stack the odds in their favour of not doing so. It's not elder as such, but being a powerful army draws those guys that don't like to lose.

Maybe people HAVE tried using different options in their codexes, and still prefer a certain type of list, that just so happens to be similar to those netlists?

Also, what would your opinion of the Gladius be, with handicapped options and restrictions in them, as well as the abundance of mandatory sub-par Tactical Squads? Or are you just sick of seeing the powerful units? Would everyone taking the same sub-par thing annoy you, or is it just spamming powerful stuff?

 DJ Illuminati wrote:
I think you may have missed the point of my post which was to criticize the player base that does a shallow copy/paste of everyone else's lists and then claims that they worked hard to design the list. I don't care if they use my favorite units at all, it would just be nice to see something other than the spam lists that are making Eldar into this horrifying brotherhood that no one wants to play against.

Then again same goes for every army in highly competive enviroment.

Enviroment where people are going for max strenght lists will invariably head to same because there just ain't that many good combos.

If enviroment isn't that competive then eldars will also field other units.

Problem isn't with eldar(albeit it's somewhat more notable there). It's because of bad internal and external balance. Add to that human competive mentality and you have lists aiming toward each other...

For past few years when there's big event in Finland with lots of tournaments and events of various styles I always made point going through 40k tournament armies. Just by seeing what armies are present I could pretty much tell what kind of models you will see. There just ain't much room for variety in modern tournament enviroment...

Not sure was problem QUITE this bad(at least bottom 3rd in tournament used to have bit more variety) about 10+ years ago? Maybe it was and I'm just looking through rose glasses or has balance gone even worse(ie you are shooting yourself even more to your foot by deviating from optimum) or is the advent of internet done to warhammer what it did to poker, make game tougher by raising competive level. Even bad players in poker these days are better than say 2 years or heaven forbid 10 years ago! Information is much more widely available. Similarly broken combos etc are out in few hours since codex is out(sometimes even BEFORE...)

I am an Eldar player who started back in 4th ed and I have only ever played Jetbikes and Dire Avengers as my Troops. Just because jetbikes went from "arguably the best Troops in the game" to "definitely the best Troop" doesn't mean I am going to stop playing the unit that made me start Eldar in the first place.

Having said that, I have been trying out units with only 1 Scatter laser per 3, with the other 2 bike having Shuricannons. So far it seems the best of both worlds; I get my 36" range shots to strip HPs and the Shuricannons can be quite satisfying when Bladestorm happens. Since they aren't all Scatter lasers, I have to think more on how I use them. Do I risk getting closer to use the Shuricannons? or do I stay back a pop a few shots form the Scatter, then jump behind some terrain? Keeps them competitive without being TFG.

I think this kind of "choice" is what the OP is getting at. Don't take the "obvious" choices, especially since the rest of the units are still quite good. Another rule I tend to live by is to not spam more than 2 units of the same type outside of Troops. I don't run Warp Spiders, but if I did, I wouldn't run more than 2 units.

I don't however, believe that every other Eldar player is just copy-pasting 'Net lists. Sure some are, but I think that most players look at the other pages in the book and come to the same conclusions: Scatterbikes & WKs are the best units in the book

--

Is this meant to achieve anything? I doubt this will change anybodies lists one way or another. It certainly won't change mine.

I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

 Xerics wrote:
Now if you are asking Eldar players to play things like Banshees and Striking Scorpions then you are barking up the wrong tree.

My banshees come out pretty much every game. Last night I actually played Jain Zar! Sadly they were almost completely wiped out in a single round of shooting by an Ironclad which drop-podded right next to them, but a unit of 10 HB's with JZ reducing I and WS to 1 (for most units) is going to tie up pretty much anything for the entire game regardless of killing things...

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

Necrons' bottom units are also significantly better than most other armies' bottom units. (In fact I would say an army of the worst cron units would beat an army of the worst eldar.)

But no one really cares about that. xD

 niv-mizzet wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

Necrons' bottom units are also significantly better than most other armies' bottom units. (In fact I would say an army of the worst cron units would beat an army of the worst eldar.)

But no one really cares about that. xD

And what about the rest of what I posted? Do you think Necron warriors are as good as Scat Bikes? Do you think anything you have in your dex is as good as a wraithknight? Are your immortals as scary as Wraithguard with D-flamers? No.

Can we just get past this pointless whining?

This only really affects you if you play in tournaments. Otherwise, you agree to the style of game you're going to play. If your opponent disagrees, find someone else to play.

Just houserule scatbikes are 1 in 3, wraithknights cost an extra 100 points, and warp spiders can only jump once. Job done.

SemperMortis wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

Necrons' bottom units are also significantly better than most other armies' bottom units. (In fact I would say an army of the worst cron units would beat an army of the worst eldar.)

But no one really cares about that. xD

And what about the rest of what I posted? Do you think Necron warriors are as good as Scat Bikes? Do you think anything you have in your dex is as good as a wraithknight? Are your immortals as scary as Wraithguard with D-flamers? No.

Calm yerself bro. I didn't disagree with you, I was just poking fun at a minor technicality. I would've thought the laugh emoticon would get that across.

This phenomenon is a real shame, because Eldar are hands down the most fun foot army in the game with battlefocus. My basic Eldar list template is a Guardian stormhost with an Avatar of Khaine plus multiple aspect hosts (usually 3x banshees and 1x spiders 1x reapers 1x hawks). Having a whole melee focused army that can also move 12" and melta stuff that stays alive solely on positioning and psychic defenses is a great time.

But this isn't news, people don't play the builds that are interesting and fun they play to win.

Most eldar players I know just play whatever they like to play. they just happen to also like winning so they choose things that fit their play style and win the game for them. Don't be mad about that. You don't have to go on the internet to figgure out the darkest secrets of that is good about the eldar codex. You just have to take a look at it any player will immediately recognize what is really good and what is just good in that codex.

I think the op isn't really upset at people playing their list, but trying to claim they thought of it.

Once had a guy tell me they had created a list for dark angels and space marines that they came up with all by themselves. They hadn't bought any of the models or codexes yet.

Hard earned playtesting there, they didn't even know what they were going to fill out their points with yet. Just this super awesome 2+ rerollable deathstar they came up with.

THAT is annoying, play what you want, but don't try and pretend it is your idea.

It is this lack of imagination as to why I have shelved my Crons for the time being.

 DJ Illuminati wrote:
Guys, please try to put some actual effort into your lists. I am sure I am not the only person tired of seeing constant posts saying "hey guys, what do you think of my totally original list of scatter bikes, warp spiders, and wraithknights? Dur dur dur"

Just my two cents as some one who actually looked at the other pages in the codex. .........am. I the only one that feels this way?

That's the same as Flyrants for Tyranids.
Gorepacks for KDK.
Canoptek Harvest for Necrons.
Riptide Wing for Tau.
Grav-Cannons for SM.
X for Y.

They are proven to be effective and at the end of the day, people want to win as well as have fun. Now some people can be really creative and ingenuitive and create some really interesting lists that require skill to play (such as Jimsolo's Freakshow, Sean Nayden's Lictorshame).

But for the most part, people want a backbone on which to rely on if things go south in battle.

My opinion is that it's not a problem when you include some units that are good (as you want to win), the problem is when you spam them. I'm strictly a casual player now so there may be some bias in my decision, but I find more enjoyment from casual games that include some good units and some other units that make the ordeal interesting (despite pressure from my friends to go to their tournament which will involve me bringing my Orks against a Trip Harvest-Decurion, Gladius and more than likely an Eldar double CAD with two Wraithknights).

I agree that people shouldn't claim like it's their idea. That's just in bad taste. Play it by all means, just don't claim ownership for someone else's work.

Do what one of the store owners does around here to eldar players.

If some one shows up with a scatter bike/wraith knight list, he breaks out his 1500 point cultist army and plays him.

He is gonna loose so might as well make him works for it.

The OP has a point, the lack of variaty in one of the most diverse factions is just staggering, it's not that I don't want people to use certain units... I just would like people to flex their imagination and come up with a non web list


Just scat packs, Wraithknight and spiders are boring when you run them all the time.

Try gate of infinity with Baharroth on Wraithguard or perhaps Eldrad scouting wave serpents filled with Wraithcannons.

Seer Councils, hornets and War Walkers

Warp Hunters annd Nightspinner squadrons

Wraithblades in a Pale courts battlehost

Dark Reaper Aspect hosts or Fire dragons in cloudstriking falcons

Crimson Death formations or the Shroud of Kurenos in the indomidable flyer wing

Lynx tanks with sonic lances (trolling with guide)

Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Guardian Battlehosts and vypers


Most of these suggestions are really powerful...but for some reason they are not seen... really quite sad

 Torus wrote:
The OP has a point, the lack of variaty in one of the most diverse factions is just staggering, it's not that I don't want people to use certain units... I just would like people to flex their imagination and come up with a non web list


Just scat packs, Wraithknight and spiders are boring when you run them all the time.

Try gate of infinity with Baharroth on Wraithguard or perhaps Eldrad scouting wave serpents filled with Wraithcannons.

Seer Councils, hornets and War Walkers

Warp Hunters annd Nightspinner squadrons

Wraithblades in a Pale courts battlehost

Dark Reaper Aspect hosts or Fire dragons in cloudstriking falcons

Crimson Death formations or the Shroud of Kurenos in the indomidable flyer wing

Lynx tanks with sonic lances (trolling with guide)

Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents

Guardian Battlehosts and vypers


Most of these suggestions are really powerful...but for some reason they are not seen... really quite sad

Sorry to say this and piss off the handful of players who aren't like this, but that is because as a rule the majority of Eldar players are Power gamers who just want to win non-stop and to hell with the other person having any fun. Ironically all of the builds you just mentioned are better then any of the builds in my codex

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

I feel that this is one of the reasons for my rant. I started playing back when most of my eldar units sacked and bringing a Wraithlord was considered cheese. Now it is hard for me to get a game in with anyone at a lfgs other than my own as most every opponent I meet refuses to play because my army is overpowered.....even when I promise to not bring bikes and swear that I don't even own a wraithknight. The stigma of Eldar was perpetuated by such unoriginal waac lists........

 DJ Illuminati wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

I feel that this is one of the reasons for my rant. I started playing back when most of my eldar units sacked and bringing a Wraithlord was considered cheese. Now it is hard for me to get a game in with anyone at a lfgs other than my own as most every opponent I meet refuses to play because my army is overpowered.....even when I promise to not bring bikes and swear that I don't even own a wraithknight. The stigma of Eldar was perpetuated by such unoriginal waac lists........

Well, and the fact that the worst units in the Eldar codex would be Auto includes in my Ork Codex....

SemperMortis wrote:

 DJ Illuminati wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to run into an Eldar list that wasn't optimized with Scatter lasers, Scat Bikes,Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, wraithguard or firedragons or the psychic shenanigan battery pack.

I think Eldar are about the only race right now where they can take the LEAST optimized units, 2-4 of them if they wanted, and still have a better then 50/50 of winning. Not because they have good strategy, but because GW has turned the Eldar faction into the De facto "Easy Mode" army.

If you do a comparison you will quickly find that Eldar have the best units in most categories. LoW Wraithknight wins hands down, Troops? Scatbikes by far,

I feel that this is one of the reasons for my rant. I started playing back when most of my eldar units sacked and bringing a Wraithlord was considered cheese. Now it is hard for me to get a game in with anyone at a lfgs other than my own as most every opponent I meet refuses to play because my army is overpowered.....even when I promise to not bring bikes and swear that I don't even own a wraithknight. The stigma of Eldar was perpetuated by such unoriginal waac lists........

Well, and the fact that the worst units in the Eldar codex would be Auto includes in my Ork Codex....

To be fair, basic Boyz and lootas are great units compared to some of the stuff on other armies. Lootas are even great as anti-air.