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 Smirrors wrote:
First off you are capped at 3 tank commanders.

If the range is an issue for you, take them as Vostroyan or Tallarn.

As for plasma people like to keep their infantry squads cheaps. But otherwise if you get the opportunity to use it, it could be worth it. You would also need to spam it in every squad to get a chance as using it. Often times infantry squads get cut down well before they get to shoot multiple times.

Plasma sponsons on the tank commanders is a good idea though.


Capped at 3? Where is that? Not seeing it anywhere; unless you're referring to the generalized rule of 3? (A recommended rule, but one I often build around anyways).

So, maybe 3 Tank Commanders and 3 regular Russes, all Catachan (for the innate shot reroll and Gunners Kill on Sight), Demolisher Cannon, Plasma Sponsons, and Lascannon. Catachan Infantry Squad escort with officers. Lots of points sunk into tanks, but that's a lot of damage potential, and should be enough tanks to weather incoming fire so long as you hug cover on your way to the enemy.

(I know Vostroyan gives more range, but the Catachan Shot Reroll gives higher damage potential).
   
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Arcanis161 wrote:
Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?


Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.

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 Weazel wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?


Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.


Yep. However, 8 Lasguns doing FRFSRF deals an average of two wounds to MEQ in Rapid Fire range (though I've only seen 0 or 4+ in my gaming). Add a single overcharged Plasma shot going through and that's another Primaris gone.
   
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Arcanis161 wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?


Might want to re-read FRFSRF. Namely, it doesn't affect plasmaguns. I made this mistake initially too.


Yep. However, 8 Lasguns doing FRFSRF deals an average of two wounds to MEQ in Rapid Fire range (though I've only seen 0 or 4+ in my gaming). Add a single overcharged Plasma shot going through and that's another Primaris gone.


Fair enough. I'd probably use Take Aim (unless Cadian and standing still) when overcharging.

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I think I've missed something here - what is the update to demolisher cannons?

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D6 shots regardless of the number of models in the target unit

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Ah, ok, that makes them a bit more better!

In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!

What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).

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Baltimore

I've had some pretty amazing results with the Demolisher on a TC so far. They completely wreck vehicles if you get a decent number of shots.
   
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 some bloke wrote:
Ah, ok, that makes them a bit more better!

In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!

What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).

Tank commander with hammer of sunderance battle cannon relic, then a couple Demolisher commanders. That'll do some damage. That, or a shadowsword, are our serious damage units. Really though a lot of guard stuff is death of a thousand cuts.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
Ah, ok, that makes them a bit more better!

In my army as is, I feel I'm lacking any concerted firepower, all I seem to do is chip away at things. I want some oomph!

What can people recommend for a unit to do some serious damage in a single turn? I'm thinking either a unit of russes, a baneblade variant, or a unit of basilisks (2 more to bring me to 3).

Tank commander with hammer of sunderance battle cannon relic, then a couple Demolisher commanders. That'll do some damage. That, or a shadowsword, are our serious damage units. Really though a lot of guard stuff is death of a thousand cuts.


I am thinking that a few leman russes will be in order. I'm also thinking of making a (let me get this right...) Banesword with a quake cannon, to do me some tank hunting. Not sure what we have to support it though. I'm wondering if a few leman russes would be able to hide it, using their shoot-then-move command, so it can shoot and then hide from return fire. I'd have to get the models and compare their sizes. I don't trust the survivability of a baneblade chassis, not in this climate!

Reason for a banesword rather than shadowsword is volume of shots = better chance of average damage. average of 7 shots with minimum 3 damage, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds, 12 damage on a normal vehicle. max potential 72 damage.
Shadowsword would be... ...6 shots... actually that seems better. 6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds (say 2 wounds), 14 damage. max potential 108 damage. yeah, definitely better!

OK, so a shadowsword then. possibly blocked in by leman russes (with long range guns) so people can't see it. maybe.

I've got some buying & building to do!

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Baltimore

How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.
   
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 Stus67 wrote:
How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.


I've run mine with a mix of shields and mauls plus an astropath and a priest
   
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I tend to go with more slabs than brutes. If I ran 9, I'd probably do 6 and 3 or even 7 and 2. If the slabs are in cover, Take Cover!, or Psychic Barrier'd, the AP would have to be higher than -3 to make a difference. That's against shooting though, melee might be more reason to have those invulns.
   
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So what are people opinions on sponsons for tanks? While I feel they are a no brainer for Tallarn, but what about other Regiments (building a Preatorien army using Mordian regiment rules even if others are better)

Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?



*edit for spelling/grammer*

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/29 16:05:44


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 Salted Diamond wrote:
So what are people opinions on sponsons for tanks? While I feel they are a no brainer for Tallarn, but what about other Regiments (building a Preatorien army using Mordian regiment rules even if others are better)

Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?



*edit for spelling/grammer*


I occasionally throw them on my tank commanders - usually plasma cannons since they are cheap. Wouldn't bother with them on leman russes as they'll be hitting on 5's on the move and 4's are bad enough.

If I take Sentinels I take the scout ones for the Go Recon strat. I put multilasers on them so they won't be a priority target and try and hide them up field somewhere and do some late game objective grabbing.
   
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 Salted Diamond wrote:


Also is there any viable way to use Sentinels. I really would like to include as few for theme reasons. What's the best way that they could be used and what weapons to give them?



Maybe the powerlifter sentinel variant? It's a forgeworld unit, that fight in melee. They are a bit expensive in points and the model is out of production at forgeworld. But they are interesting because they do something pretty unusual in an AM army. And you can mod your own!

PS: they come in units, and you can use the Crush Them stratagem on them.
   
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I have not tried this yet, but generally I suspect all Sentinel variants could be interesting as relatively cheap, relatively sturdy CC traps. They will not kill anything in CC (except maybe the powerlifter), but in some cases (Hellhounds etc.) that might even be a good thing. For 35 points they are cheaper than a Bullgryn (to which I would compare them in this role) and while they don't have the 2+ or 4++ of those, 6 wounds, 3+/4+ sv and T5-6 are nothing to sniff at. Also in some very specific cases it can be interesting that they are vehicles and not infantry/monsters. The ability to use "crush them" was already mentioned, but furthermore this means that Knights and other giant walkers can not move over them and the Sororitas Repressor has "only" 3 and not 9 attacks. They can be healed by a strategem and Tech priests. And a quick visit to mathhammer told me that on average (!) a Knight Castelan only does 5.333 wounds in CC a turn against an armoured Sentinel, so if you manage to three point him you might (!) be able to keep him locked in CC for more than one turn.
Also (again: very situative) the Scout Sentinels can - on a board with both deploymentzones 24'' apart as some have - pull of a turn 1 charge by scout moving, normal moving, advancing (resulting in min 19 and average 21.5'') and then charging with "Crush them". At this point they are a maximum of 5'' from the enemy deployment zone, which is not very far.

Again: I have not tried this, I don't think its very competetive, but I suspect there might be some situations, were that might give you an edge when using Sentinels to just bind something in CC.


And on a last, even more situative point: if you draw the tactical mission 42 "behind enemy lines" (excuse me if it is has another name in english, I translated from my german book) you can getvictory points if you get models in the enemy deployment zone. For 1 CP you can move Scout Sentinels 18 + 3D6 inches (9 Scout move + 9 normal move + 1D6 advance + 2D6 "Go! Recon!), so an average of 28.5'' which is enough to get there. And costing only 35 points (with multilasers) it does not really hurt that much to just move them there and throw them away to get a victory point (or D3 if you pull this off more than once)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/31 18:01:00


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I've enjoyed using them as anti-charge roadblocks and cheap brigade fillers. Scout sentinels scouting forward to block the path from those Genestealers gave me an entire turn of free shooting. They'll probably die from whatever charged into it, and not do anything back, but at 35 points, it doesn't matter. You're in the Guard, it's the job description.
   
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@ Cleric: I suspected something similar. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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But why not just, you know, take bullgryn? Who can have stupidly high saves, and actually fight back in melee for a wee bit more points? And maybe its just me, but melee tarpits really don't help guard much unless you have something like the valhallan order (and even there, I'm only ever using it to get units out of melee). So many melee units now are designed to one shot knights or heavy hitter targets, a sentinel is a joke to them, even a few of them. And that's ignoring the fact that units like a smash captain will probably just ignore them and hunt your valuable armor anyways. Yeah, they might be able to tri point a castellan but how are you going to catch him? He moves as fast as you do, and a single arm of his can wipe a whole sentinel squad in shooting. Hell, he'll probably drop a sentinel or two just on overwatch with the sheer amount of firepower he has. I just don't see the point in the sentinel screen unless you want a narratively friendly armored company and aren't really able to use infantry as your screen. Or the fact that they look cool, I've made dumber lists for that reason. But rule of cool doesn't mean much for tactics.

Which sucks, I love the look of the sentinel and want to use them more, but it's really hard to find a genuine reason to run them from a tactical standpoint. Infantry move faster, screen better, and have better firepower. Ogryn are tougher to shift, and both orgyn and guardsmen do melee better than a sentinel can. So I don't know, only thing I can really think of is Tallarn Sentinels just functioning as mobile HWS that are harder to drop with small arms, but the cost of a sentinel with something like a lascannon is about the same as 3 heavy weapon teams that could just be spread among infantry squads to protect them. Or you know, just take some Leman Russes which will hit way harder than their weight in Sentinels and probably be tougher to shift to boot.

The scout move doesn't even work against certain lists. Like against Raven guard. What good is the free turn 1 move when your opponent can start 9" away anyways?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/03 07:20:03


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Nice to hear of a few semi useful ways to use sentinels, even if they are minimal/situational.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
But why not just, you know, take bullgryn? ?


I want to take sentinels over bullygryn mainly for theme reasons. Sentinels fit the theme, bullygryn do not. In addition I run a Brigade Det, so I need 3 FA which are currently 3 squads of Rough Riders, and while I have never played competitively, if I were to play in a small local toury that did not allow index/legacy units I would need a substitute.

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 some bloke wrote:
. I'm wondering if a few leman russes would be able to hide it, using their shoot-then-move command, so it can shoot and then hide from return fire. I'd have to get the models and compare their sizes. I don't trust the survivability of a baneblade chassis, not in this climate!



Not even close. Baneblade reach higher anyway. And is bloody big. And bottom of leman russ from front gives los as well. No way. Generally it's hard to block los from unit to unit with units. Ork boyz covering grots? Nope grots are smaller but still between legs etc los will be drawn.

Psykers about only defensive buff you can have. Maybe void shield generator tms building? But even if such still exists there's got to be reason thev don't show up...

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 Salted Diamond wrote:
Nice to hear of a few semi useful ways to use sentinels, even if they are minimal/situational.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
But why not just, you know, take bullgryn? ?


I want to take sentinels over bullygryn mainly for theme reasons. Sentinels fit the theme, bullygryn do not. In addition I run a Brigade Det, so I need 3 FA which are currently 3 squads of Rough Riders, and while I have never played competitively, if I were to play in a small local toury that did not allow index/legacy units I would need a substitute.

Fair enough. I forgot brigade tax is just about their biggest draw. Although with guard usually the only time I find myself going brigade is if I plan on going soup. Otherwise it's just so easy to take 3 batallion I kind of feel stupid taking tax units when the batallions cover my needs. I want to spam hqs and troops anyways, so it's not a big sacrifice, and I can mix vigilus detachments.

If you're looking for a tax unit that fills fast attack, have you considered Hellhounds? I know their usefulness varies by regiment but they've felt well worth their points pretty much every time I've used them with my Valhallans and Catachans. If I'm gonna fill a slot, I like the unit to pull it's weight, and while a sentinel is just over a 1/3rd the points of a hellhound, I've never seen 3 of them do as much as even a single hellhound can. They're fast, draw fire, explode pretty reliably, and are a brick to help block los. Opponents don't like leaving them alone and they even kind of help screen a bit since most units don't like charging them. Plus if you're running armor they do more for armor saturation with your chimeras. Just a thought.

Hope I'm not coming across abrasive there, I've been trying to figure out a genuine use for sentinels other than as a tax unit for a while and I've just never been happy with them.

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My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.

I don't take them all the time, but I think they do have good uses. Relatively tough for the points, and the scouting is good for pushing out your bubble against armies that push hard. But with any unit, it's a tool, and sometimes that tool won't be useful or less useful than others.

Although I did run 18 Tallarn Sentinels armed with lascannons in a friendly game once. That was hilariously fun.
   
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 necron99 wrote:
 Stus67 wrote:
How are ya'll running your bullgryns for those that do? I just got a box to make a squad of 9 and I've been debating on going full slabshield or like 5 slabs and 4 brutes for those random ultra high AP shots from space marines.


I've run mine with a mix of shields and mauls plus an astropath and a priest


This. There is no need to go all in on one type unless your running smaller units. I run 5 often and even then I splash two brute shields. You could always build the models and leave the shields off and play some games until you decide what difference is important to you or not. It's been a while since I built mine, but maybe magnets are even an option?

   
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Cleric wrote:

Although I did run 18 Tallarn Sentinels armed with lascannons in a friendly game once. That was hilariously fun.


That sounds absolutely goddamn amazing.
   
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Cleric wrote:
My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.



No, he kills your sentinel, then uses Overrun to get even further up the board and then activates Adrenaline Surge to tripoint a different unit with a pile in move.

Your Tyranid buddy needs to up his game if he's just killing Sentinels turn 1 and not using them as speed boosts.
   
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RogueApiary wrote:
Cleric wrote:
My uses are a bit biased because my usual opponent is a Tyranids player, so bigger guns are a bit more scarce and Kraken Genestealers are a real threat for a turn 1 charge if things go well for him. So if he dedicates his Tyrannofex or Exocrine or Hive Guard to shooting out 35 point sentinels... good. If not, it means those Scouted Sentinels are now in the way of his Genestealers, saving the rest of my army turn 1. He kills the sentinels, consolidates 3", and my guns light them up. Or he avoids them, and I still get a turn of shooting.



No, he kills your sentinel, then uses Overrun to get even further up the board and then activates Adrenaline Surge to tripoint a different unit with a pile in move.

Your Tyranid buddy needs to up his game if he's just killing Sentinels turn 1 and not using them as speed boosts.


This. Or tripoint the sentinel and dont kill it until your fight phase so he cant get shot.

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Eh, 4cp to get into the Infantry Squad screens doesn't sound too great. Even if they tri-point and can't be shot until they kill the squad, you can make them next to worthless again. If they have another 4 cp to do that combo again, surround the screen they are tri-pointed with with a few more squads. Still can't get to your important stuff, again. So 2 turns in, they've spent 8 cp to kill your sentinel(s?), and somewhere between 2 and maybe 6 if they get really killy. So at absolute max, that's about 345 points dead at the end of turn 2 after 8 cp spent. In the meantime, move away and kill stuff, and when they run out of CP, which they should be out of or nearly out of at this point, mow them down.

This assumes that the guard has many Infantry Squads (of course they do) and know how to space for pile ins and consolidates
   
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Cleric wrote:
Eh, 4cp to get into the Infantry Squad screens doesn't sound too great. Even if they tri-point and can't be shot until they kill the squad, you can make them next to worthless again. If they have another 4 cp to do that combo again, surround the screen they are tri-pointed with with a few more squads. Still can't get to your important stuff, again. So 2 turns in, they've spent 8 cp to kill your sentinel(s?), and somewhere between 2 and maybe 6 if they get really killy. So at absolute max, that's about 345 points dead at the end of turn 2 after 8 cp spent. In the meantime, move away and kill stuff, and when they run out of CP, which they should be out of or nearly out of at this point, mow them down.

This assumes that the guard has many Infantry Squads (of course they do) and know how to space for pile ins and consolidates


I'm not so sure about how feasible it is to get that surround. A Dawn of War deployment zone is only 12" deep and the tanks are 3" wide. For the surround to work, you need to get multiple squads in blocking positions more than 4"+ around the captured unit on your turn. If you mess up even a little, they can pile in/consolidate to a point where they can spend 3 cp on your turn to fight again and wipe your reinforcements or take new hostages. At that point, their turn two becomes an all-you-can-tag buffet in your backlines as they fall back and charge through the holes they made on your turn.

If you do get that perfect surround, they then don't need to spend CP on their second turn. They'll charge 2-3 of the guard squads you used to surround, move three or four stealers 3" from the fourth squad using the charge move, kill the charge targets and take the fourth hostage with the consolidate move. Arguably, at this point, the screen has done it's job by holding out for two turns, but the stealers are still mostly alive and can comfortably threaten most of the tank/arty line and you probably don't have another forty guardsmen to throw at the problem within move move move distance.

Still feel offering up the sentinels as an easy charge target turn one is an unnecessary move. I'd rather have some bullgryn or a gallant to counter charge that first turn and just murder the stealers in combat.

There's also the issue of the stealers tearing up multiple small units in your screen almost guaranteeing the Nid player gets killed one and killed more for the first two turns of the game in ITC or a guaranteed first blood/strike outside of ITC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 00:53:55


 
   
 
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