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So Guardsmen that can string out 25+" per squad isn't feasible to surround stealers, but stealers can tri-point those squads every time? Also, even with your example, that's now 7 cp to get into infantry squads twice, and any mess up for the genestealers is a fallback and shoot for guard, meaning dead stealers. They're also taking Overwatch (not great but it's some damage) and fight back (not great but also some damage).

Two regiments make this better, being Valhalan for the order to shoot the stealers anyway, and Catachan to make the melee fight back better.

And of course you'd rather have the Gallant. It's more than 10x the cost, of course it'd be better. That's like saying I'd rather have a Battle Cannon than a lasgun. But that wasn't the question. Bullgryn are also good, but aren't likely to kill them all, and then the Genestealers fallback/charge something else. And a single Bullgryn is 47 points.

Infantry squads keeping things off your vehicles for 2 turns is the goal of screens, yes. I'm happy with that, and the 7 cp my opponent spent is even better. If this is happening in a game, I'm likely winning.

It's also not hard to get first strike against guard. At all.

Also, "you probably don't have another 40 guardsmen" don't underestimate me friend! XD

These are not the best tools, but it is a decent use for the unit in my experience.
   
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Cleric wrote:
So Guardsmen that can string out 25+" per squad isn't feasible to surround stealers, but stealers can tri-point those squads every time? Also, even with your example, that's now 7 cp to get into infantry squads twice, and any mess up for the genestealers is a fallback and shoot for guard, meaning dead stealers. They're also taking Overwatch (not great but it's some damage) and fight back (not great but also some damage).

Two regiments make this better, being Valhalan for the order to shoot the stealers anyway, and Catachan to make the melee fight back better.

And of course you'd rather have the Gallant. It's more than 10x the cost, of course it'd be better. That's like saying I'd rather have a Battle Cannon than a lasgun. But that wasn't the question. Bullgryn are also good, but aren't likely to kill them all, and then the Genestealers fallback/charge something else. And a single Bullgryn is 47 points.

Infantry squads keeping things off your vehicles for 2 turns is the goal of screens, yes. I'm happy with that, and the 7 cp my opponent spent is even better. If this is happening in a game, I'm likely winning.

It's also not hard to get first strike against guard. At all.

Also, "you probably don't have another 40 guardsmen" don't underestimate me friend! XD

These are not the best tools, but it is a decent use for the unit in my experience.


Not saying the Nid player is going to have an easy time of it. They're just as likely to screw it up as the Guard player, but I think the Guard player has more to lose if they mess up than the Nid player.

I did not intend to have it come across that I'd rather take a Gallant than Sentinels as a one for one swap. Im saying that I'd rather take a list design approach that focuses on killing the stealers in melee than one that focuses on containing them.

I have no doubt you will have forty more guardsmen left on the board after the first forty die, but they can't all be in the same place is the point I'm trying to make. If you run 120+ guardsmen it becomes harder to space them out properly and to avoid traffic jams in the deployment zone.
   
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Netherlands

I am looking to build a second Guard army. Jungle themed and air heavy (as opposed to my current winter- themed armour heavy army). Think of slough-hat jungle fighters rapping from Valkyries and an air wing of thunderbolts + a vulture gunship.

Now since I mainly play tanks I know nothing about this type of AS army. Which units to use, msu or elite infantry etc? Should I go Elysian, Tallarn or choose another regiment instead? And is it possible to create a 2000 pts army with this theme which is not blown from the table in the current meta?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/06 19:18:30


   
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Murray, Kentucky

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
I am looking to build a second Guard army. Jungle themed and air heavy (as opposed to my current winter- themed armour heavy army). Think of slough-hat jungle fighters rapping from Valkyries and an air wing of thunderbolts + a vulture gunship.

Now since I mainly play tanks I know nothing about this type of AS army. Which units to use, msu or elite infantry etc? Should I go Elysian, Tallarn or choose another regiment instead? And is it possible to create a 2000 pts army with this theme which is not blown from the table in the current meta?

I'm currently building a Catachan themed list in this same vein. I've only played a couple games, but just remember you'll need boots on the ground to not get tabled. So no matter how cool your theme, some guys will need to start the game on foot and survive or you'll be tabled immediately. Also be warned most of our air units aren't very good.

My plan was a ton of infantry squads with straken and priest support, with SWS, CCS, and vets dropping from Valkyries while an avenger and a couple vultures provided fire support. All the valks got hellstrikes and lascannons since I already have a ton of anti infantry. I don't think it's super competitive, you struggle against armor, but it's fun to play at least. Infantry swarm helps pin things in place and all the air support can rapidly redeploy to deal with tough spots. Problem is all the new marine lists just eat guardsmen for breakfast so I have a feeling the infantry would be wiped in short order unless you really commit. It's why I picked Catachan, it at least have me some melee punch the list otherwise lacks. Bullgryn would be a good choice too.

Only other regiments I really see doing aircav are Stormtroopers, steel legion, and maybe Vostroyans. I chose Catachans for theme but their abilities don't do much, it's mainly the characters that make it work. Steel legion can drop out and doubletap plasma out to 18 making landings easier, Stormtroopers can drop turn 1 with it as well as get the vigilus detachment, and Vostroyans just make use of range and being able to shoot even if tied up.
   
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New Hampshire

While I have not played them in 8th yet, I heavily played Elysians in past editions and I agree with MrMoustaffa. In past editions Vendettas, Vultures, and suicide MM Drop Sentinels could deal with tanks, but with 8th I see it being a tougher fight. And don't even get me started on the new Marine BS (Inceptor's, 3 jump pack models putting out 18 shots with assault HB's?!?!). Elysians taught me that guard drop infantry will need to hit hard and fast for any chance. Expect to take severe casualties. With this in mind, If you want to jump out of Valkyries, I'd consider Steal Legion for the extra distance for rapid fire "might" help, or Catachan for the strength boost as you will get charged being so close. Too bad that Valkyries don't benefit from doctrines as both would help.

And going this route remember the following Elysian motto.
"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"
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I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.
   
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 Badablack wrote:
I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.


That's my current plan ATM. I'll need to get at least a couple more though as, while I've able to maneuver my current one to not be killed Turn 1, it's still focused enough to be on its last bracket.
   
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 Badablack wrote:
I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.


That's why I'm running mine in a Emperor’s Fist Tank Company Supreme Command detachment. The tank commander demolisher can move 10" pay 1CP and still fire the turret twice. That's a 34" threat range turn 1.
   
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 necron99 wrote:
 Badablack wrote:
I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.


That's why I'm running mine in a Emperor’s Fist Tank Company Supreme Command detachment. The tank commander demolisher can move 10" pay 1CP and still fire the turret twice. That's a 34" threat range turn 1.


Tallarn would make that even better. Would give a 40" threat range to one Demo and 34" to the rest. In addition it would still be able to fire all it's sponson and Hull weapons to full effect as well. HB sponsons and a Heavy stubber are just 18 points but gives (with Hull HB) 12 x BS3 str 4-5 attacks.

To put that in perspective that is almost as much firepower as 5 Mortars. Across 3 TCs that is almost 15 Mortars (5 HW squads) for 54 points. When you consider that Demo's always want to move Tallarn becomes such an obvious choice.

I like Demo's because they are (along with Punishers) the only turret weapons that can actually draw attention away from your Hammer of Sunderance TC.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/08 12:31:26


 
   
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Agreed that gets you even more range but I play straight Cadian specifically so I can take the Lost Relic of Cadia when playing against chaos and using the Overlapping Fields of Fire strat which is awesome sauce in so many situations...especially when you can use one of your TCs to cause the wound followed by a barrage of bassies who are now hitting on 3's rerolling 1's. Just too good.
   
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 Badablack wrote:
I’ve been running Tallarn Russes with Demolisher cannons and they’re pretty great. Flat D6 shots makes them much better now, and Tallarns can reach the enemy nearly anywhere on the table now with their order. I’ve been thinking of trying them as Catachans next though. They wouldn’t have as much reach and non turret weapons would suffer for a turn, but that could pack a good punch, maybe with plasma sponsons.


With specifically demolishers imo extra speed is better than extra hit catachan gives.

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Vostroyan demolishers anyone?

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Pretty much the choice between Tallarn, Vostroyan, and Catachan is whether you want movement, range, or damage, respectively. I'm trying out Catachan first myself, figuring the extra damage is worth the extra time to get into position, but another Guard player in my area is using Vostroyan.

What other successes/shortcomings are other people finding with their Demolishers? Also, how many are people taking? I'm seeing a lot of people taking the Hammer of Sunderance, but wouldn't another Demolisher TC (if already taking 1-2) be better as that would be more for the opponent to deal with? Or are people of the opinion that 2 more points and longer range is better than the potential extra damage? (In other words, would you take 3 Demo TCs or 2 and a TC with the relic?)
   
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Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.

Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!

Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/09 05:49:51


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Murray, Kentucky

Im trending towards at least one hammer and one demolisher, with the third TC a Demolisher as well. My local meta is a ton of hyper aggressive assault armies with knights, vehicles, and monsters, so the range is a non issue and I need all the damage I can get. Nobody here runs hordes but me so punisher doesn't do a lot but if I go elsewhere I bring a few punisher cannons. However I'm finding vultures do the same job and usually better, so I don't really run TC Punishers anymore. They're fun, don't get me wrong, but they're nowhere near as mobile to deal with threats, and vulturess can cheekily snipe characters sometimes. Losing the +1bs against fly units does hurt though.

As Catachans and Valhallans my guardsmen and vultures have no issue dealing with whatever infantry I tend to face so I figure let the tanks do as much heavy lifting as they can. Between tank commanders, hellhounds, basilisk, and vulture I feel a lot of bases are covered pretty well.

If you don't own a vulture, I think a strong argument could be made for punisher/Demolisher/hammer but since I own two vultures punisher leman Russe's don't really do much for me.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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tneva82 wrote:
Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.

Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!

Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway


Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.

I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.

...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.

So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.
   
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Arcanis161 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.

Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!

Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway


Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.

I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.

...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.

So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.


Don't get me wrong IF shooting is good but not that good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 05:51:00


 
   
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Arcanis161 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Thing about relic battlecannon is that flat 3 can be superior to d6. Yes average goes to 3 rather than 3.5 but you'll be happy about that flat 3 when you come against 3 wound models where demolisher gives essentially extra 5+ save for him.

Ability to roll 6 is averaged out by rolling 1 and there are times you don't even out. Rolling 6 is irrelevant if opponent has 3 wounds!

Add to this range and don't see need for 3rd demolisher. 1 or 2 is max i would take anyway


Well let's also not forget that the Demolisher is Strength 10 while the relic is still Strength 8. More will go through against most big things, like Knights, Leviathan Dreads, and other vehicles.

I was basing the idea of having 3 TC Demolishers (and possibly 3 regulars too) off of something I heard on a podcast: if you have something crucial to your strategy, take more of it. This way, your opponent can't efficiently deal with all of it. I figured that more firepower would be crucial to beating most Marine opponents.

...this same guy came back in a later podcast, stating that he only had one in his list. Given that the podcast heavily discussed RG/WS Assault Centurions and the recent IF release, and given what they said each could do, it looks as though a competitive Marine list would chew through all 3-6 tanks in a single turn.

So, I guess the moral of the story is strategy is always more complicated, and I know nothing.


Certainly multiple threats is good but thing is the flat 3 adds so much utility that the relic battle cannon I deem automatic. I don't see 3 demolisher better than relic+2 demolisher. You still have 2 demolisher for the S10 shots but that doesn't pop up all the time. Meanwhile plenty of 3 wound infantry out there you don't want to give them extra 5+ save to survive. Like those centurions, aggressors, custodians etc.

There's reason why helverin is so bloody good. Flat dam3 being large part in that.

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West Virginia

Does anyone here run a list that is entirely tanks? My current 40K project is close to completion, so I am looking to the future for my next 40K adventure.

My plan is to make an Imperial Guard army that has no infantry at all. I have never played Imperial Guard in any capacity; however, I love the look of Leman Russes, and I think it would be fun to have a list that is all tanks.

This is in no way intended to be competitive, so it being "good" is not a concern of mine. I just wanted to know if anyone has experience with it, if you enjoy playing it, or if you have had any negative experiences with it.

I just threw together a 1500 point list in Battlescribe that has seven Leman Russes and three Basilisks. Let me know how you feel about all tank Imperial Guard lists! Thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 14:11:48


 
   
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Entirely tanks doesn't work because Knights exist, ergo every list is either Knights or tailored to kill Knights, which means Tanks without an Invulnerable save get melted off the table.

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France

And without infantry, the enemy infantry will just reach your tanks and you won't be able to shoot anymore for the rest of the game. Basically, T2 at best is your last shooting phase of you play like this.

   
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Yeah, even a single model reaching a tank takes it out of the game unless you can fall back and kill it with something else. Not to mention if they have anything swarmy at all, they'll control the board/objectives while pushing your tanks out.

If you're deadset on playing that for fun, I would bring at least 6-8 Punishers to try and take care of infantry before they become a problem. Also Vigilus for the field commander bonus (reroll failed overwatch) on them would be a good idea, but given that you're likely to only have 6 CP (3 base, +3 for each detachment of Spearhead or Supreme Command) makes this an investment of a third of your CP. At this point, it's less about making the list "good", and more of making sure you can actually play the game past turn 1 or 2.

If you play Mordian, tanks with Punishers getting 20 shots, mordian so hitting on 5's, Defensive Gunners strat pushing it to 4's and rerolling failed hits is pretty good, but again, lack of CP is a problem.

Good luck if you do this, let us know how it goes.
   
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 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Does anyone here run a list that is entirely tanks? My current 40K project is close to completion, so I am looking to the future for my next 40K adventure.

My plan is to make an Imperial Guard army that has no infantry at all. I have never played Imperial Guard in any capacity; however, I love the look of Leman Russes, and I think it would be fun to have a list that is all tanks.

This is in no way intended to be competitive, so it being "good" is not a concern of mine. I just wanted to know if anyone has experience with it, if you enjoy playing it, or if you have had any negative experiences with it.

I just threw together a 1500 point list in Battlescribe that has seven Leman Russes and three Basilisks. Let me know how you feel about all tank Imperial Guard lists! Thanks!


You'll probably want a front-line (or two) of hellhounds to be the 'screen'. Then the three mandatory Russ Tank Commanders and add other artillery/tanks to taste
   
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Augusta GA

I’m gonna be trying a Catachan supreme command with 3 Russes, some sort of big superheavy tank and then Harker sitting in the back screaming at them to reroll 1’s. I’m thinking the basic Baneblade is the ideal chassis for rerolling numbers of shots?

   
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Netherlands

I've bought myself a Sledgehammer bfg gun (amazing model). I realise it is not as effective as a tracked basilisk, but I just like the look of the thing. Now, 1d4chan guard tactics says it is possible to give orders to the Earthshaker carriage battery. How would this work? I can understand the crew can be ordered to Reroll 1's with their lasguns, but not the artillery piece as it is no infantry. Or am I wrong here?

Off course using Harker would work.

   
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Ordering the carriages was a thing in previous editions, but not now.
   
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Washington State

I'm thinking of adding an Ordo Minoris Inquisitor to my Mordian list. The inquisition Requisition stratagem along with the Form Firing Line order might make for some fun character sniping.

Thoughts?
   
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 Badablack wrote:
I’m gonna be trying a Catachan supreme command with 3 Russes, some sort of big superheavy tank and then Harker sitting in the back screaming at them to reroll 1’s. I’m thinking the basic Baneblade is the ideal chassis for rerolling numbers of shots?



I hate doing this on phone, gonna have to split the answers between two replies.

Since no one has responded to you for a week, I'll do my best and start with you.

Any of the superheavies besides the Stormlord should work. Remember with the Demolisher Cannon you would need to get close, like really close. If that's your game plan, go for it.

Though, I will note the reason many like bringing Tallarn Superheavies is to ambush with them. Used correctly, that can be valuable too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 necrontyrOG wrote:
I'm thinking of adding an Ordo Minoris Inquisitor to my Mordian list. The inquisition Requisition stratagem along with the Form Firing Line order might make for some fun character sniping.

Thoughts?


Could work theoretically, just be sure to bring Plasma as the order is for "rapid fire weapons". Plasma, while making the squads more expensive than Ratlings, will increase the damage you could potentially do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/21 03:19:03


 
   
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France

Any tips for using the ambush stratagem ? I could use it to protect a precious tank T1 but it will only fire once then. The same if I try to bring a punisher into the enemy zone / at range.
I can't bring melta weapon in short range and I don't need it for plasma.
So ?

   
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I unfortunately do not have practical experience yet, but potential interesting candidates would include:

Hellhounds (they can drop in their optimal range and you don't have them in your own deployment zone turn 1 where they can be blown up to cause you mortal wounds)
Devil Dogs (IF you want to use them. Contrary to Leman Russ they don't loose efficiency for coming in on deep strike)
Leman Russ tanks in the Emperors Fist tank Squad (with the Strategem to double tap after moving)
Tarantula and Hydra Guns and other immobile artillery pieces (very situational, but depending on terrain, ambush allows for placing them on very inaccessible points with good LOS like on top of buildings etc. Fun fact: last time I looked the Tarantula Gun still had not the "vehicle" keyword and therefore can taken alongside other vehicles).

There are definitely more and maybe much better things, but those are the ones I have in mind.

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