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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Segmentum Solar, Terra, France

Vostroyan Demolishers (with 30" range) can be pretty good also. Tallarn is better for shoot and hide shenanigans.
At least in my area, there is a trend leaning to more heavily terrain loaded tables. In a LOS blocking environment, a quite short ranged gun is not a big liability.

Playing  
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Manchester, UK

So what would you put on a Tallarn demolisher? My first instinct is would be las/bolter and stubber. Heavy terrain could make meltas more useable I guess. Or three bolters to save some points.

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Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Trickstick wrote:
So what would you put on a Tallarn demolisher? My first instinct is would be las/bolter and stubber. Heavy terrain could make meltas more useable I guess. Or three bolters to save some points.

If you're hunting armor may as well take multi meltas and Las but I feel like that's crazy overkill. I mean, what target is surviving a Demolisher cannon and two multimeltas and a lascannon? Because that's gonna be a tank commander with some rerolls. Maybe if you're dead set on sponsons just something anti infantry to keep it safe but honestly I'd keep them cheap. They're gonna be close, they're gonna get charged and take fire, no point in making them more expensive when the points you put into other weapons go a good way to another tank.

I could see demolishers being good as basic leman Russe's, using your commanders for the mandatory hammer and probably punishers or tank commander Demolishers. A basic demolisher is a little cheaper and isn't affected much by the change from bs3 to 4. It will overkill many targets as is, and can gang up on anything it can't. Itll draw a hell of a lot of fire which buys the tank commanders time, and is still a points efficient brick.

How exactly you use them depends on regiment, but it'll mostly boil down to "shove brick down throat, repeat".

I'll tell you one thing, Catachan Demolishers spam will be one hell of a ride. Oh I hit you on 6's, that's cool, I reroll both shot amounts on the demolisher cannon, and I only really need to hit you once or twice to ruin your day. And even if you run into hordes, you just need a punisher or two and your golden. Staple that onto a straken/priest melee mob of guardsmen and you've got a good time in the making. You can outrun some guardsmen and a couple tanks, but you can't outrun something like 10 tanks and a 100 guardsmen charging across the table

Spoiler:
so not quite 100 guardsmen and 10 tanks but you get the basic idea. I'm sure there's a way to get Harker in too.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [15 PL, 231pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Catachan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Laspistol, Power fist, Warlord

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Laspistol, Power fist

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [15 PL, 233pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Catachan

+ HQ +

Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken [4 PL, 75pts]

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Laspistol, Power fist

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [105 PL, -1CP, 1,532pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Catachan

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Fist Tank Company

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter, Relic (Emperor's Fist): Hammer of Sunderance

Tank Commander [12 PL, 170pts]: Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 170pts]: Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 300pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 300pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 300pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

++ Total: [135 PL, -1CP, 1,996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/27 23:31:14


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I think the Tallarn or Voystroyan would beat out catachan in this regards. the Range factor is really limiting on the Demolisher. Dont forget Vigilus strat to move them at full and still shoot twice as well.

I think HB will still be the way to go on sponsons. If they do get charged your getting more shots.

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I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.

Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.

On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.

When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.

The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.

Edit:

And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/05 01:07:17


 
   
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I'm constantly shifting position too. But not due range. As we don"t play with planet bowling balls any range beyond 30" after moving is bonus that sometimes comes to play

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 Mr.Omega wrote:
I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.

Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.

On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.

When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.

The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.

Edit:

And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.


Why do combined squads cease to exist now? And our FRFSRF still does the same damage it has been doing. Are you just playing against a lot of new marine lists or something?

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San Diego, CA

Custodes also are simply not going to be killed by lasgun fire, they also cost 50 pts/model (minimum) so bring out your plasma and heavy weapons. This isn't a "guard squads are worse" problem, it's a problem of shooting at literally the worst target for your weapons. You'll do more damage to a Knight than a custodes biker with lasguns because of their 2+ saves.

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 Colonel Cross wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
I don't think the Demolisher change really makes it a game-changer. Yes, it makes them something to consider rather than the pointless junk they used to be, but honestly, you really do not want to close in at 24'' range.

Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.

On the melee side of things, things aren't that much better. They're maybe just okay if you're playing Catachans with Straken and a Priest or something.

When I sit down and think about how to write a competitive list right now, when it comes to infantry my only concern is how much bubblewrap I need and sometimes I toy with the idea that Scions can be objective grabbers. Our infantry are only good for protecting our heavy hitters at this point on a competitive level. If your heavy hitters have to be mobile and get in the 24'' threat range, you are severely complicating the bubblewrap problem and serving your army up on a silver platter to any opponent that makes use of fast elements, assault units and deepstrikers.

The only reason I can see for taking a Demolisher Russ is if you're going to take 1 or 2 of them at most as a cost effective counter-measure to the threat of multi-wound elite deepstrikes and rambo beatstick characters that can be right on top of you in turn 2.

Edit:

And no I don't think this problem goes away just by being Vostroyans, 30'' range or not. I'm consistently having to adjust the position of my Executioners with 36'' range in my games at the moment as it is.


Why do combined squads cease to exist now? And our FRFSRF still does the same damage it has been doing. Are you just playing against a lot of new marine lists or something?



Because you need to spend CP to merge infantry squads, and you can only do this once per turn. So, by turn 2 you can have a merged squad of 30 Guardsmen for 2 CP. Every casualty you take before your CP sink deathblob gets to shoot, makes it less and less worthwhile and honestly its not difficult to give 3 infantry squads FRFSRF so there is virtually no reason to aggressively use the combined squads strategem. By the time the strategem becomes meaningful halfway through the game, its already too late, and you've invested a whole 3-4 CP into it that could be used far better elsewhere.

The other problem is that while FRFSRF itself strictly speaking got better from last edition, its relative effectiveness plummeted through the floor. Last edition it was rare to encounter squads where each member had more than one wound and even then, the vast majority of the time they had a 4+ save or worse. The only real exceptions were things like Grey Knight Paladins, or at the end, Custodes, and both were 50+ pt models. This meant that a blob of just grunts that hit on 4's with their rifles could usually punish heavy infantry because with just 90 shots, you would get 45 hits, 15 wounds, resulting in 5 dead regular MEQ or 2 and a bit TEQ, which would severely hurt either unit.

This edition, hobbitmarines with 1 wound are rarer, elite assault infantry commonly have multiple wounds and high saves, and at the high end, they get so many wounds that is futile to expect FRFSRF to make a dent. Take a squad of Allarius Custodians. 4 wounds a piece, 2+ save. Lets say you had the good fortune by some elaborate miracle to get 30 fresh guardsmen in 12'' range, and another fresh 20 outside that bracket from a blob of 50, all with FRFSRF. That translates as 140 shots, turning into 70 hits, 23 wounds, and 3.89 unsaved wounds. Therefore you'll kill one of them if your luck is average. If they have the FNP banner, you'll be doing even less wounds. Otherwise, that would be barely 2 dead Terminators, which can now cost as little as 33 points iirc.

Compare that to Tank Commander in a regular Leman Russ. 2D6 shots, averaging 7, resulting in 4.62 hits, 3 wounds, and 1.5 unsaved wounds that do an average of 2 damage each, which creates a near equal damage output at 170 pts, vs the minimum cost of the infantry at 260 (5 IS + 2 Commanders + Inspired Tactics [1cp]). This is before you even consider re-rolls from the Cadian doctrine and orders and other things, which you will probably have with the tank commander. Even with Cadian infantry on the opposite hand, you need to move most of those infantry to get the extra FRFSRF shots from the 12'' band, whereas the tank will not have to move most likely.

So what you have is a 260 pt infantry combo that requires set-up, significant points and maybe CP investment, prayer to the almighty, that barely hinders elite infantry that land right on top of you. Assuming that you don't take significant infantry losses from the elite infantry shooting (unlikely) or other sources. This also fails to account for the 30-35 pt Commissar tax or the 2CP Commissar tank tax to keep all those infantry from taking heavy morale losses.

Its not that you shouldn't take them, because 2 Commanders, Commissars and 5+ infantry squads is still a neccessary investment for most Guard lists to meet force org requirements and to have bubblewrap for the important things. Its just that unlike in the past, they're not going to do much work. A list that tries to spam Guardsmen and their required force multipliers isn't going to have a consistently respectable damage output, and is nowhere near as efficient as a list that uses heavy hitters as the backbone of its damage output.







This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/07 14:46:51


 
   
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San Diego, CA

Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.

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 greyknight12 wrote:
Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.


Actually, that minimum size unit can kill a maximum of 21 Guardsmen once you take into account shooting from their grenade launchers. But the main problem is that even one Custodian being left alive is a nightmare for a Guard player because it only takes one Custodian to tie up 1-2 of your tanks/artillery during a critical phase of the game. So even a minimum size squad can present a massive threat.

Adding in special weapons makes little difference. 5 BS4+ Plasma guns turns into 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.65 unsaved wounds, which sometimes will kill one extra Custodian IF the lasguns rolled average and also killed one. . Now you've invested another 35-60 pts in your infantry by giving every squad a plasma gun, which might not ever get to fire in other match-ups.

Also, I'd like to again point out that the example I gave was an ideal, perfect example that assumes no positioning problems and no casualties. Even then the damage output and deterrent impact is pitiful.

You seem to have basically repeated the conclusion I made - that you need the heavy hitters to kill them. Which again, draws us to the inevitable conclusion that our infantry can't consistently deal with enemy infantry. So like I said, outfitting them under the expectation that they'll pull their weight and have a respectable damage output is pretty pointless, because if you keep them simple and cheap as bubblewrap, those extra points can go into your points pool for heavy hitters and be consistently useful instead.

Yes, Guardsmen kill Boys, Acolytes and Gaunts, but then so does the 2pt storm bolter mounted on my tanks, and pretty much everything else. The minimum bubblewrap setup will offer a decent amount of counter-punch against them, but you're always taking that anyway so you don't lose easily, so what's your point? The existence of Boys, Acolytes and Gaunts does little to justify putting extra points into outfitting your infantry for anti-infantry duty.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/07 19:19:34


 
   
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 greyknight12 wrote:
Custodes don't have a FNP banner, they have a -1 to hit, +1 attack, and infantry get 5++ options. Only way to get FNP is a warlord trait on one model.
The point you're missing is that your guardsmen aren't supposed to be dropping 80 pt terminators. You need tanks and special weapons to do that...it's not a bug. And your guardsmen are there because that 237 pt unit of 3 hyper-elite infantry can kill at most 12 of them, or 48 pts of your army. Your guardsmen stop elite stuff from getting to your tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons teams...the stuff that actually does the killing by body-blocking them. That's how Imperial Guard have always worked. Run your numbers for say a squad of Ork boyz, or Acolytes or Gaunts...guardsmen exist to kill those things.


This. Your not going to kill a Primaris marine on steroids. Guardsmen are for screenings, objective grabbing, and kill other enemy chaff.


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 Mr.Omega wrote:


Our infantry have hit rock bottom, honestly. There's no point in strategizing around them being a capable force that can drive off enemy troops or elites because between Conscripts being unreliable with orders and with combined squads ceasing to exist (impractical strategem aside), its difficult to get enough FRFSRF shots to do the job. You need four squads of infantry and two commanders just to have enough FRFSRF lasgun shots roughly to kill a single basic Custodes, generously assuming you're in the ideal rangeband with every single model, that it doesn't have the FNP banner effect, and that you haven't taken any casualties yet. Veterans in a Chimera are no longer an efficient choice either since they don't even use up mandatory troops slots anymore.



So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.

Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.

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I'm thinking of starting collecting Guard and really wanted to go with a "Valhallan" Emperor's Conclave detachment. Very specific idea here while we're on the topic of infantry, but has anyone thought of running conscripts in the front with a bunch of flamers (maybe a command squad with the heavy flamer and more regular flamers) right behind next to characters, bogging the enemy down in combat then using the Valhallan Order on the non-conscripty flamers behind to fire into the units in combat? Avoids the to-hit roll which is the only chance to harm the squad in combat. I was thinking about making an inquisition-themed Emperor's Conclave force with this strategy as its primary anti-infantry. Too much setup?
   
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 Cothonian wrote:


So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.

Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.


So you have 280 pts infantry. You shouldn't thus expect firepower of even 2 russ commander.

If you have 3+ tanks on board doing more lifting then no surprise. You have invested more points on them!

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tneva82 wrote:
 Cothonian wrote:


So I'm not the only one who feels this way. On the tabletop, my infantry often do little more than die. Most of the time it feels like the few tanks I have on the board are doing dramatically more heavy lifting, despite me having 70+ infantry on the table (I like to play fluffy, I know my lists aren't optimal.) I feel like the loss of effectiveness in infantry is that weapons in 8th edition tend to put out a lot more shots. Like, A LOT. Despite having a ton of cheap infantry on the board, they just don't last against the sheer amount of dice being thrown.

Moving along... I need to read up on this Demolisher update. I really like the tank thematically, but prior to now it was always very expensive for what you got. I'm kind of excited to see it getting a buff.


So you have 280 pts infantry. You shouldn't thus expect firepower of even 2 russ commander.

If you have 3+ tanks on board doing more lifting then no surprise. You have invested more points on them!


Yep, I agree. And more to the point if you're using your infantry to kill stuff you're missing the point. I use mine to fill the role of screens, objective holders and on occasion wrap transports so when the tank commanders take it out the contents go poof. Screens are an obvious tactic but a lot of armies don't have as flexible a screen as we have. We can give them orders or use strats to do crazy stuff like fall back and shoot normally or assault in the shooting phase, reroll shots, throw a ton more shooting dice. What does cult mechanicus shields do? And if I'm on an objectives everywhere or have multiple units on an objective you have to decide do I try to kill the troops or do I try to kill Tank Commanders? And they can be stupidly fast with move, move, move like to the tune of 19" on average. I think we have awesome troops - just need to watch for openings to exploit their advantages.
   
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kinnairdclan wrote:
I'm thinking of starting collecting Guard and really wanted to go with a "Valhallan" Emperor's Conclave detachment. Very specific idea here while we're on the topic of infantry, but has anyone thought of running conscripts in the front with a bunch of flamers (maybe a command squad with the heavy flamer and more regular flamers) right behind next to characters, bogging the enemy down in combat then using the Valhallan Order on the non-conscripty flamers behind to fire into the units in combat? Avoids the to-hit roll which is the only chance to harm the squad in combat. I was thinking about making an inquisition-themed Emperor's Conclave force with this strategy as its primary anti-infantry. Too much setup?

As a guy who runs Valhallans, the flamer is a terrible option because it's not going to kill much in combat with conscripts that the conscripts can't drag down with weight of dice. You're getting d6 Bolter shots, whoop de Doo. A priest near even a half strength conscript unit probably does more.

You want something like plasma for firing into combat. You want a weapon that'll drop something like a tank or monster that the conscripts can't deal with. That or mortars that don't need to see the target and have 6x the range. Flamers will struggle to be in range and won't do much when they arrive.

Honestly I've never used the Valhallan order offensively. It has always been a reactionary order to deal with the fact that my meta consists mostly of insanely aggressive assault armies. Stuff like cadians just get tied up too easily, even with lots of guardsmen, so I needed ways to get tanks out of combat. And in those instances I never really cared if I hit the friendly unit because Valhallans don't care too much about an extra wound. I either hit the target, which is what I wanted, or I hit myself, which if I kill my unit, hooray I can now shoot the assault unit stranded in the open. So it's a win win.

Just my 2 cents but I'd back up Valhallans conscripts with SWS plasma, HWS mortars, and tanks. And even there, infantry squads do almost the same job the conscripts do, but are way more reliable and accurate.

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I've been thinking about a barmy idea. Has anybody tried fitting in 3 bare-bones baneblade variants in a 1850-2000 point game (in a superheavy detachment)?

I'm thinking of taking 3 Cadian Banehammers with no sponsons. The tremor cannons put out a nice amount of firepower while also having the (pretty rare) ability to tag enemy units that want to get close to you or go to an objective and slow them right down. Firing decks would contain HWTs with mortars or ratlings. The 3 Banehammers would put me in the vicinity of 1150pts. Rest of the list would be filled mainly with infantry. I'd take a tank commander or two to trigger the overlapping fire strategem, and maybe take a company commander with the Cadian relic for a turn of buffing to wound rolls (or everything if I face chaos) if I turtle all 3 up together. Banehammers would benefit from Cadian doctrines in this setup.

Probably pretty silly/noncompetitive, but I think it would be a nasty surprise to many opponents. Really plays to the Imperial Guard archetype of a few massive tanks and swarms of light infantry, which appeals to me.

   
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I tried this earlier as I have a shadowsword, octoblade, and Macharius Vulcan and I can tell you it may have worked early on but since knights took over the meta, you'll just get crushed. We simply don't have the stratagems or invuln saves to do anything significant. And at only BS 4, as soon as you get bracketed, it's just a big brick.

5k Imperial Guard
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San Diego, CA

That’s why you need at least 2 shadowswords. While the other superheavies are good all-rounders, nothing else can kill their biggest enemies.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
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On moon miranda.

Against Chaos Knights at least one can rely on Vengeance for Cadia, that'll typically double the firepower output of most IG superheavies against such targets for a measly 1CP.

I think if you're going to really run superheavies and want them to do guaranteed work, they need to be run as Valhallans so an opponent can't just degrade them but really has to concentrate on destroying them (since they don't degrade until they've lost 20 wounds instead of 13 and even at only 4 or 5 wounds can still easily destroy many full strength units). If you've got 3 superheavies on the board, a lot of armies can bracket all 3 in one turn, but might not quite be able to concentrate enough firepower to destroy one entirely, allowing a Valhallan force to respond far more effectively than others might.

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Double and triple super heavy lists are not meant to be competitive. They are gate keeper list. In some instances they can do well if you get the first turn. I remember when I had a Castellan and pulled a triple shadowsword list 1st round who went first. Outcome decided pretty quicky.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Hello all! I'm just rebooting my 40k armies for 8th edition, and I'd like to run my Rebel Grots (Heresy, I know) who use the IG rules.

I've got (roughly):

Spoiler:

lord commissar
2 x commanders

3 x 10 guardsmen with a smattering of special weapons (flamer, grenade launcher, plasma)

4 chimeras, 1 with heavy flamer, the rest heavy bolters.

priest
techpriest
5 ratlings
2 command squads

2 armoured sentinels w/ lascannons
Valkyrie, standard loadout
Valkyrie (originally used as a skytalon but it'll work alright as a normal one) with MMP's and multilaser
Hydra or Wyvern (guns are interchangeable)


I'm hoping for a game tonight, at 1250pts, which I should be able to make without having to use absolutely everything.

what advice can you give me on this? Should I run a hydra or a wyvern? What will work best in a Valkyrie? is 2 fliers excessive in 1250pts? are chimeras much good any more (thinking roll into range where the grots can get out and shoot at rapid fire).

I want to run Stormtroopers for the more shots on 6's, as it's close to dakkadakkadakka, so fits my grots theme well.

If the Hydra Autocannon shoots something that has the FLY keyword, does the stormtroopers ability trigger on a 5 or a 6? similarly, if I use superior intelligence, I assume the ability will never trigger as it is -1 to hit rolls (so the roll maxes out at 5)?

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
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The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 some bloke wrote:
Hello all! I'm just rebooting my 40k armies for 8th edition, and I'd like to run my Rebel Grots (Heresy, I know) who use the IG rules.

I've got (roughly):

Spoiler:

lord commissar
2 x commanders

3 x 10 guardsmen with a smattering of special weapons (flamer, grenade launcher, plasma)

4 chimeras, 1 with heavy flamer, the rest heavy bolters.

priest
techpriest
5 ratlings
2 command squads

2 armoured sentinels w/ lascannons
Valkyrie, standard loadout
Valkyrie (originally used as a skytalon but it'll work alright as a normal one) with MMP's and multilaser
Hydra or Wyvern (guns are interchangeable)


I'm hoping for a game tonight, at 1250pts, which I should be able to make without having to use absolutely everything.

what advice can you give me on this? Should I run a hydra or a wyvern? What will work best in a Valkyrie? is 2 fliers excessive in 1250pts? are chimeras much good any more (thinking roll into range where the grots can get out and shoot at rapid fire).

I want to run Stormtroopers for the more shots on 6's, as it's close to dakkadakkadakka, so fits my grots theme well.

If the Hydra Autocannon shoots something that has the FLY keyword, does the stormtroopers ability trigger on a 5 or a 6? similarly, if I use superior intelligence, I assume the ability will never trigger as it is -1 to hit rolls (so the roll maxes out at 5)?
Chimeras unfortunately aren't terribly productive in the current edition, neither are Valkyries really, they don't really bring much killing power to the table and aren't bringing a whole lot of utility either for what they cost.

Between the Hydra or Wyvern, go with the Wyvern.

I believe the Hydra would trigger Stormtroopers on a 5+ against Fly targets, but I'd probably still take the Wyvern.


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Vaktathi wrote:
Chimeras unfortunately aren't terribly productive in the current edition, neither are Valkyries really, they don't really bring much killing power to the table and aren't bringing a whole lot of utility either for what they cost.

Between the Hydra or Wyvern, go with the Wyvern.

I believe the Hydra would trigger Stormtroopers on a 5+ against Fly targets, but I'd probably still take the Wyvern.



ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.

It went very badly. I was facing ultramarines with 2 repulsors, one anti-tank and the other anti-infantry, with a lieutenant and a chapter master behind them to give them all the rerolls.

I conceded turn 5, as he had a lot left and I had 2 conscripts and a commissar.


Chimeras were indeed rubbish, the multilaser I've found is so unabatingly meh, I will be replacing them with heavy bolters for the next game!

Valkyries were slightly less meh, but there's not a lot of firepower in there - heavy weapons teams will probably do better here. I'll be scrounging myself some 60mm bases and making me some lascannons!

Ratlings were poorly positioned, but getting a 4+ save in cover with a T2 dude is just appalling. they died when someone looked at them.

2 units of 20 conscripts put out a decent amount of firepower, and with a lord commissar behind them they were quite difficult for the enemy to route.


All in all, my main issues were:

lack of anti-tank - to be corrected with lascannon teams
lack of defence - methinks a baneblade variant may be on the cards
lack of options - I was boxed in with my limited army, I need some room to choose!
Lack of luck - I landed not one hellstrike missile, and one out of 5 lascannon shots hit!

I also need more of the vehicles which did work - more wyverns, and more basilisks. They did well, until they were shot. I need redundancies!
After that, it's more infantry units - 3 is simply not enough, and I don't want to keep using my 2nd edition grots as conscripts (it looks terrible!)


Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
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 some bloke wrote:

Chimeras were indeed rubbish, the multilaser I've found is so unabatingly meh, I will be replacing them with heavy bolters for the next game!


the amount of nerfs multilater has got is ridiculous.

Valkyries were slightly less meh, but there's not a lot of firepower in there - heavy weapons teams will probably do better here. I'll be scrounging myself some 60mm bases and making me some lascannons!


Just remember to put the lascannons into infantry squads. Not in 3 lascannon teams.


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 some bloke wrote:
ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.
Just to clarify, because this mistake happens a lot:

You cannot pick MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as your <REGIMENT> keyword. However, you can give any custom <REGIMENT> the Storm Troopers doctrine, they just can't use any of the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS special snowflake units as though they were your custom <REGIMENT>.

E.g. A detachment of TWILIGHT SPARKLES PONY BRIGADE can have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, and have a unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions in the detachment (as per the Auxillia rules), but the Scions will gain no Regimental Benefit.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
ended up being 1500pts, I ran Armageddon as tempestus can't be chosen as a regiment.
Just to clarify, because this mistake happens a lot:

You cannot pick MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as your <REGIMENT> keyword. However, you can give any custom <REGIMENT> the Storm Troopers doctrine, they just can't use any of the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS special snowflake units as though they were your custom <REGIMENT>.

E.g. A detachment of TWILIGHT SPARKLES PONY BRIGADE can have the Storm Troopers Doctrine, and have a unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions in the detachment (as per the Auxillia rules), but the Scions will gain no Regimental Benefit.


ooh, that opens up some possibilities! Thanks for the clarification!

this codex seems a lot more complex than the Ork one! there seems no end of additional caveats!

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





What are people's thoughts on the Leman Russ Demolisher since the change to it's profile? My maths says it kills on average as many Primaris Marines as the Executioner (4 if Catachan Tank Commander, 6 with Plasma Sponsons and Lascannon too), but deals far, far more damage against vehicles. (Still does almost nothing against the Iron Hands Uber Leviathan with 4+/4++ 1/2 -1 damage). Also 2 points cheaper than a Battle Cannon Commander similarly equipped.

Only sticking point right now is the range. 24 inches is fairly short. I feel like you'd have to bring a minimum of 3-5 as Tank Commanders to make them work. Infantry Squads are absolutely needed as screens.

Speaking of (sorry for all the rambling), why no Plasma on Infantry Squads? Overcharged, it's got a good chance at killing a whole Primaris Marine for only 8 points. Again, my maths calculates that, on average, a Catachan Demolisher Commander and an escorting Catachan Squad with Plasma, if the squad FRFSRF, then those two combined kill 8 Primaris out of a squad of 10. So, why no Plasma?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





First off you are capped at 3 tank commanders.

If the range is an issue for you, take them as Vostroyan or Tallarn.

As for plasma people like to keep their infantry squads cheaps. But otherwise if you get the opportunity to use it, it could be worth it. You would also need to spam it in every squad to get a chance as using it. Often times infantry squads get cut down well before they get to shoot multiple times.

Plasma sponsons on the tank commanders is a good idea though.
   
 
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