Are there women in the DKoK?

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**Deadshot**

TheCustomLime wrote:
A simple question. I don't see why women couldn't be in the Death Korps but they seem conspicously absemt in the fluff.

Men are more naturally adapted to physical exertion due to testerone building muscle faster.

Plus, they are still human. Putting a woman in might lead to sexual encounters. Last thing you need is half your cannon fodder deserting because of motherly instinct. Or getting raped by their clone brothers because they happen to be the only women they'll ever see. Or getting impregnated by some freaky alien that uses other species' females as incubators (it definitely exists somewhere in the galaxy). Sure, its possible that the source of the DNA might be gay but I feel they were choose a source who wasn't to minimise distractions. Plus it'd be fething weird to be attracted to your fellow clones. And women are unnecessary to their reproduction cycle as they are vat grown.

No, for what the DKoK are and do, which is march relentless into gunfire at any cost and grow new meatshields in a lab, the best and simplest method is make millions of men, all identical, all with no urges or free will of any kind and are proven to be combat effective.

**Deadshot**

Mudrat wrote:
Selym wrote:
One advantage of women in the IG is the potential to bunkerdown on a world and reproduce for another source of bodies. I mean, it's probably a great help to thoae wars that last centuries or millennia. Exhibit A being the women of Cadia. Birth in the field and whatnot.

Very true, and it makes selling the presence of a new guard force much easier if there are women in it. It takes away some of the 'foreigner's coming to take our women' factor that history shows quickly leads to rebellion and general unpleasantness.

On the other hand, those babies take a year to give birth, 15 odd years to raise them to fighting standards, and during the time of concieving the baby, they aren't garrisoning, and when pregnant, they are a liability, right up until the child is fully fighting. Doesn't matter how well trained they are, their first instinct as mothers is safety of their baby, which could mean anything from deserting to save the child from a life of meatgrinder, or disobeying orders to protect their child. Better, I feel, that none of the soldiers have personal attachments beyond "we were friends in Basic" so that if, for example, the child died at 15, the mother isn't going to rebel or lose her mind. Plus, 15 years in a family environment isn't what the DKOK are, they are cannon fodder from birth. The babies would be thrown into minefields as sweepers if effective. Plus, itd be quicker to vat-grow thousands of babies (and not risk pre-natal complications like autism, stillbirth, misshapenness), a tried, tested and efficient method, train them from the age of 2 and be combat ready at 13 or 14 instead of 15-18.

**Deadshot**

commander dante wrote:
Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.

**Deadshot**

commander dante wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
commander dante wrote:
Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.

Not when you have ZERO EMOTION
(This is Taken from the 1d4chan page, with censoring)
"Krieg is a radioactive s**thole, and most of them are sterile. So sterile that most Kriegers are born of complex gene-cloning. Their society is absolutely militarized. Children are being born only to be filled with the guilt of their ancestors, trained and sent to die for their Emperor"

So you cant say "Basic Urge to Procreate" when they cant even do that in the first place, and require help from the Ad Mech

Sterility doesn't negate your urge to have sex, nor is the entirety of the population sterile. Need to breed has nothing to do with emotions either, its instinct. Its your basic genetics are being alive to stay alive by any means necessary (including in another form by putting your genes into a soup with someone else's.

I could see a really great story developing from this aboout a DKoK woman falling pregnant and going on the run from the authorities to protect...nah that's dumb as hell.

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.

That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

**Deadshot**

Kriegspiel wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

You make really good points, all entirely accurate and I agree in principal, I just want to point out that none of those things are entirely relevant to the DKoK.

Snipers? DKoK throw men at the door until they can break through or use the bodies as a ladder.
Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Vehicles are not going to be redesigned to suit smaller bodies. You'll have smaller and taller men but they'll all use the same vehicles. Again, lifespan is 4 minutes on the battlefield, and tech is sacred. They wont defile a holy STC to redesign a Sentinel to suit a smaller person slightly better, they'll get a person better suited to the cockpit.
Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
That bit about being able to defend the village is a good point as well, but doesn't apply in 40k as a whole. The Imperium throws everything at once. If the DKOK 5000th isn't able to stop the Orks invading their homeworld, the PDF for that system isnt going to tickle the Greenskin army. Plus, its not like two rival villages going to war in the middle, its being shipped out to a system you've never heard of to be chucked onto the 41st Millennium version of the Eastern Front.
And any of the other battlefield roles are capable of being done by anyone. TRADITIONALLY they have been done by women to leave the strong powerful males free to fight. But in a society where it doesn't care about life or people, its not like men can't equally operate radios.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have women, just in a society where the main differential between them, hormones and reproduction, is completely irrelevant, and just causes more issues (brainwashing isnt guarenteed success, and waste of time, just take away the ability to procreate altogether is more efficient) than they are useful for, especially when its not a random 50/50 chance like breeding, but controllable, so just make the best soldiers possible with no distraction or anything else possible.

**Deadshot**

godardc wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Kriegspiel wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

You make really good points, all entirely accurate and I agree in principal, I just want to point out that none of those things are entirely relevant to the DKoK.

Snipers? DKoK throw men at the door until they can break through or use the bodies as a ladder.
Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Vehicles are not going to be redesigned to suit smaller bodies. You'll have smaller and taller men but they'll all use the same vehicles. Again, lifespan is 4 minutes on the battlefield, and tech is sacred. They wont defile a holy STC to redesign a Sentinel to suit a smaller person slightly better, they'll get a person better suited to the cockpit.
Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
That bit about being able to defend the village is a good point as well, but doesn't apply in 40k as a whole. The Imperium throws everything at once. If the DKOK 5000th isn't able to stop the Orks invading their homeworld, the PDF for that system isnt going to tickle the Greenskin army. Plus, its not like two rival villages going to war in the middle, its being shipped out to a system you've never heard of to be chucked onto the 41st Millennium version of the Eastern Front.
And any of the other battlefield roles are capable of being done by anyone. TRADITIONALLY they have been done by women to leave the strong powerful males free to fight. But in a society where it doesn't care about life or people, its not like men can't equally operate radios.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have women, just in a society where the main differential between them, hormones and reproduction, is completely irrelevant, and just causes more issues (brainwashing isnt guarenteed success, and waste of time, just take away the ability to procreate altogether is more efficient) than they are useful for, especially when its not a random 50/50 chance like breeding, but controllable, so just make the best soldiers possible with no distraction or anything else possible.

There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

My emphasis is pure efficiency. While priests have the force of will to resist (or not, another debate) and women can get abortions, its simply more efficient to not have to concern yourself. Take away the need for strong will (a bad thing for a brainless army of soldiers), there will be no strong will. Its simply about removing margin of error or room for free thinking. And sex, being one of the primal instincts (hence why those priests are told to resist), gives them something to think about other than war.

**Deadshot**

epronovost wrote:
godardc wrote:
There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

This «survey» (actualy a report) was actualy a collection of opinions and annecdote from 600 cases presented by the US marine corp. It was generally considered as crap by anybody with even a little bit of scientific education due to its gross methodology, annecdotal presentation of evidence and the fact that its conclusions about human physical capacities and gender differences were not supported by any scientific studies with good methodology and sufficient control on the same subject. In fact, this study was presented by some of its critique has a proof of how horrendously incompetent the US marine corp was at training women for combat. Their methods were described as counter productive, potentially dangerous and inadapted for women. This critique has been leveled at other armies and armed groups since and before. Many changes to training doctrines are currently studied right now to improve the situation. Open presence of women in the army is a very recent phenomenon and many changes to military culture and training will be necessary to fully integrate them.

This lead to an interesting question. How do the Death Korps train its soldiers? This is most likely going to affect the presence or abscence of women as well as providing us some decent insight has to how Krieg perceive warfare.

Again, another good reason for the Kriegers to not have women. Why adapt when you can just not have to bother? Krieg is a society totallygeared towards troops in warfare, everything I'm saying simply translates to "cut out any extra work." Sure you can adapt different methods to indoctrinate them to not follow instincts, train differently, etc, but why not jst remove an instinct altogether, simplify the training scheme, have 1 size fits all because all fit into that one size system?

I mean, the Orks have the most perfect society possible for this. They have a totally singular gender (male-ish), as they don't need sexual reproduction, they all follow the same training method (DNA hardwire and just fighting) and no one questions the status quo because there's no reason not to.

Krieg is just the human version of Orkdom

**Deadshot**

epronovost wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

Again, another good reason for the Kriegers to not have women. Why adapt when you can just not have to bother? Krieg is a society totallygeared towards troops in warfare, everything I'm saying simply translates to "cut out any extra work." Sure you can adapt different methods to indoctrinate them to not follow instincts, train differently, etc, but why not jst remove an instinct altogether, simplify the training scheme, have 1 size fits all because all fit into that one size system?

I mean, the Orks have the most perfect society possible for this. They have a totally singular gender (male-ish), as they don't need sexual reproduction, they all follow the same training method (DNA hardwire and just fighting) and no one questions the status quo because there's no reason not to.

Krieg is just the human version of Orkdom

Considering that some Krieg soldiers have been described has men you are correct. It's much less costly, if less overall effective, to have one size fits all type of training, but for the sake of the argument, the reverse might totally be a thing. You might very well have an army made only of women for the exact same reason than an army made of only men.

**Deadshot**

Kriegspiel wrote:
godardc wrote:

There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)...

Maybe become they put wrong women in men function rather than relying on good woman in specifically in dedicated role.
Error is to give women the same equipment and training as men while the body are obviously (except for transgender) different.
For example female soldiers had to complain to get a real military bra
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11009168/Women-soldiers-demand-sports-bras-to-protect-them-on-active-duty.html
Civilian/casual ones were not fit for military condition and the sport ones perfect for exercice, SWAT like quick assault could not be worn during a several days search & destroy patrol because of compression.

Moreover in case of mixed forces, the best strategy for the ennemy is always "shoot the female first" therefore increasing the female loss rate.
In case full 100% female squad, this is irrelevant.
Why shot "shoot the female first" ? because:
1) the fear of been raped makes the female fighting until death or KO while male relies on some kind of warrior honour for prisoners.
If a male soldier is taken by some kind of rebel, he knows that he represent an exchange value alive and as most of terrorist, insurgent are not gay, the rape risk is low.
The female one knows that raped or not, pregnant or not, she will have the same value as prisoner and even a greater value on sex-slave market.
If the rape risk exist with Genestealer hybrid, Slaanesh cultist or Dark Eldar (in such case even for men), I have some doubt with Necron
2) when a male is shot, the brother in arms makes quick first ais then want the avenge him by killing back the bastard
when female is wounded, it generates more often the "little sister & big brother" syndrom because of animal instinct that reveals during fights. This means 1st priority is to keep the female alive and evacuate her in safe area.
This is because of this instinctive behaviour that all mammals species or human endogamy ethnics (like occidental ones) have survive until today.
For bastard relying on female capture raid, rape and polygamy, this doesn't apply so they have no problem about killed the other camp woman or leaving theirs dying since they know they can capture new ones once they breach in civilian area.
3) some fanatics believe that been killed by a woman prevents them getting virgins sluts in the afterlife
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11110724/Isil-fanatics-fear-being-killed-by-a-woman-will-deprive-them-of-virgins-in-paradise.html

So no wonder that in an ambush there are more women killed than men: they are targeted 1st!

DKoK must like any army have back line and logistics. "weak girl" could be put their to free as mucch as possible the "strong boy" for the front line.
If Krieg people were only male the would extinct after a generation except if their was some DAESH sex slave polygamy or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn (BIP! Godwin point!)
hear as well the Lebensborn nurse and midwife should be able to defend themselves.

Well that's what I've been saying for the whole thread, the majority of Kriegers are vat grown in a large cooking pot, giving birth the traditional way just seems too long to both with. They might need a steady supply of eggs, but again, that reduces the females to being harvested as their most efficient role.

Also, you use several arguments that Krieg don't really care about.

Rape? Well, rape doesn't exist in 40k right?

But really, Kriegers will have had that bred and beaten out of them, and as you say, if both are capable of being raped in such a manner by Slaanesh, Deldar or Genestealers, its irrelevant, especially as that fear is bred out of them.
They have 0 value as PoWs, they are literally a dime a dozen.
Kriegers also don't have a "apply first aid, avenge, emtional big brother connection" thing. Have emotions gives free will. Avenging means not following orders to march to death. Applying first aid is wasting medical supplies on an easily replacable trooper while also not marching into enemy fire. They also don't have "evacuate the wounded."

**Deadshot**

Mudrat wrote:
Or the guard could, you know, check everyone after a battle with genestealers. This 'kiss' presumably leaves some sort of mark, so just have the commissar's strip everyone (and I mean everyone within a mile radius of the genestealers) naked and checked thoroughly.

If the Commissar has a sense of humour, he/she will let the guardsmen/women check him/her after they're done

That only works if they know about the Genestealers in the first place. Genestealers are super stealthy, most times you'll never know you have a billion strong infestation. And against a full hive fleet, Genestealers are the least of your corncerns unless they are bursting from your bathtub. Plus, from the moment the infection happens, they are completely under the Genestealer's control, meaning they will probably assassinate the leadership if they start getting checked on.

**Deadshot**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Selym wrote:
You aren't wasting bodies of you vat grow only men. Vatting women requires a second set of gear,

Is that some actual fluff or is it your interpretation of how some terrible method that is only mentionned in ominous rumors, that is supposed to greatly increase the population renewal, and that is considered with extreme defiance in the rest of the imperium work?
If it was actually just your interpretation of a very vague and ominous rumor rather than some cold hard fluff, then why are you not presenting it as such?

It's not that hard, really. Instead of saying "Vatting women requires a second set of gear", you say "Well, maybe the Vitae Womb (that we know basically nothing about) functions in such a way that making both males and females Korpers would require a second set of gear?"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
feminine characteristics [...] brain damage

Okay .

A) Vat growth is a part of Krieg fluff in the same way The Lion and the Fallen are part of Dark Angels. Its a deep dark secret rumour that other people in universe have heard and its deep dark secretive, it could be true, its sounds good and grimdark, or it could be total bollocks.

B) It just makes logical sense that you would need 2 sets of gear, or at least 2 blueprints. Imagine a 3D printer trying to print a Krieg model wholesale, you need 1 blueprint and 1 design. Now if you wanted to also print a female Krieger (GW style with pronounced boobplate and feminine stance), you need another blueprint, and you're also using the same material to make the female so you're burning through more material to produce the same amount of males.

C) Now you're using costly alternation drugs to make women into men-like beings when you could just make men from the start? Again, 3D printer, its like taking the female and adding greenstuff and cutting to make it look like the male version. Its a waste of time and cost.

D) You need an army to hold the things you capture. Kriegers have a lifespan of around 4 minutes, but not every Krieger is going to perish in battle, and you certainly don't plan it that way. You need someone capable of garrisoning the fortress, and as I previously said, women add complications to any non-warzone situation, such as sexual urges/pregnancy, big brother protectiveness, hell, even basic things like menstuation. Ever lived with more than 3 women all synced? Its like a seen from a horror movie. You breathe too loud and then come at you with butcher knives, heads spinning 360°. Do Krieg women get extra powerful emotion dampeners to counter this (thereby adding more cost) or drugs (more cost), or just left to be moody and emotional, a great recipe to turn them to Chaos or their male counterparts. Do you even provide tampons, yet another cost, or let them suffer, another way to sow dissent?

**Deadshot**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
B) It just makes logical sense that you would need 2 sets of gear, or at least 2 blueprints.

As SomeRandomEvilGuy mention, it's not that obvious.
Suppose that the Vitae Womb (I used to think it was Vitae Bomb ^^) is a technology to make women hyper-fertile, giving birth to quadruplets and stuff. Then it would be more costly to ensure it also only give birth to men.

Deadshot wrote:
and as I previously said, women add complications to any non-warzone situation, such as sexual urges/pregnancy

Sterilization is easy and sexual urge… ever heard of homosexuality? It's quite fashionable these days, and it's hardly a new thing…

Deadshot wrote:
big brother protectiveness

That 100% cultural thing for a completely different culture where people are numbers?

Deadshot wrote:
hell, even basic things like menstuation.

I'm like, WTF?

A) Quite possibly, and its quite possibly its like how I describe, a giant birthing pot. We don't know.

B) Sterilisation doesn't mean lack of sex drive. There's still desire to have sex. Sex builds relationships. Relationships and emotional attachment is a complication you absolutely don't want in your army. Also, if Vitae womb is a giant birthing pot, as I believe it be, then all the spawn ill be genetically similar, if not identical, because they'll pick genes that are beneficial.

C) Is it a cultural thing? Or is it something bred into us over millennia of men because the fighters and women being victims of enemy males killing/raping/enslaving/all three, them? Stereotypes are always based in reality and dialled up to an extremism.

D) Its a real issue. How do you deal with the fact your soldiers are all bleeding profusely, moody and irrational once a month? You can't have them constantly strapped up with those masks 24/7, 365. You're going to have a period (no pun) qhere you have a couple thousand women ready to kill each other because they don't a tampon. That seems a mighty fine way to instigate a Chaos incursion, where Khorne pops in due to huge amounts of blood and rage at any one time and promises to give them the power to get their revenge on their oppressive masters.

**Deadshot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
You're going to have a period (no pun) qhere you have a couple thousand women ready to kill each other because they don't a tampon. That seems a mighty fine way to instigate a Chaos incursion, where Khorne pops in due to huge amounts of blood and rage at any one time and promises to give them the power to get their revenge on their oppressive masters.

WTF?

Are you actually denying that women have menstrual cycles, or are you just not getting me?

Lots of angry bleeding people? That's Khorne's MO.

Modern women moan constantly about the cost of female hygiene products, rightfully so, but imagine if there simply wasn't any at all? That's what Krieg would be, because why waste time and resources outfitting them with tampons? Its just added cost. Those same women? They get mad when they have the time of month, plus the fact they now don't have any relief from that. On their own, they don't have anything to do or resist.

That seems to me the perfect time for Khorne to drop in and be like "Yo, I'll give you that slavering berserk fury you need to break from this bs and take revenge." And when Chaos gods come knocking, usually you now have an insurrection.

Taking away from all that, you now have a whole bunch of women to get tampons for in the army...how is that not an unnecessary burden when you can simply selectively breed out that entire gender, for a physically stronger, tougher and less costly gender who make better soldiers?

**Deadshot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Are you actually denying that women have menstrual cycles, or are you just not getting me?

No, I think you are just overestimating how big a problem it is. It is inconvenient, but like most inconveniences it can pretty much be ignored in life or death situations like warfare.

But, as I said, the Kriegers aren't in constant war. There will be times when they simply aren't at war. Either a war has been won and the troops are in the months afterwards, in a year long transit between systems in the warp, garrisoning a world or simply aren't in war. Its inconvenient, but inconvenient can very quickly turn to outrageous and then to protest worthy. I would also hazard a guess that as a guy, what you or I (I assume you are a guy) see as inconvenient is downright infuriating to some women out there. I mean, wasn't it posted early about female soldiers finally getting a combat worthy bra that wouldn't lead to painful compression like a sportsbra would? I feel even in a life or death situation, the servicewomen of the world are still getting tampons on the front lines.

**Deadshot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Either a war has been won and the troops are in the months afterwards, in a year long transit between systems in the warp, garrisoning a world or simply aren't in war. Its inconvenient, but inconvenient can very quickly turn to outrageous and then to protest worthy.

They are Death Korps of Krieg. What little personality they have left by the time they are ready for war is brainwashed into complete obedience.

Guardsmen cannot 'protest'. Those that do are used as targets in live-fire exercises.

(I assume you are a guy)

No.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
I feel even in a life or death situation, the servicewomen of the world are still getting tampons on the front lines.

In most militaries you are not shot for failing to praise the Emperor either.

They are probably just given a piece of cloth or something and told to make do, now go shoot some xenos.

Total brainwashing is not possibly without lobotomy. There is always going to be a degree of autonomy needed, be it in squad, company or regiment level officers, or the ability to recognise and take advantage of a situation. Even the DKOK are not going to throw bodies mindlessly at an impenetrable gate when there's an undefended sewage hatch right over there, and there absolutely needs to be someone, anyone, capable of recognising strategic opportunity. Its simply inefficient.

How long does it go before those DKOK who are unhappy learn to quietly brood, stewing their rage, until a Chaos god or Alpha Legion agent comes with whispers of a better way?

Also, apologies on the gender assumption.

**Deadshot**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Total brainwashing is not possibly without lobotomy. There is always going to be a degree of autonomy needed, be it in squad, company or regiment level officers, or the ability to recognise and take advantage of a situation. Even the DKOK are not going to throw bodies mindlessly at an impenetrable gate when there's an undefended sewage hatch right over there, and there absolutely needs to be someone, anyone, capable of recognising strategic opportunity. Its simply inefficient.

How long does it go before those DKOK who are unhappy learn to quietly brood, stewing their rage, until a Chaos god or Alpha Legion agent comes with whispers of a better way?

Also, apologies on the gender assumption.

We are talking about regiments who have Commissars put there to stop themselves from pouring into the meatgrinder. They'll have officers who can hopefully spot such things but in general, they are a throw more artillery and men at it regiment.

DKOK who are unhappy are liable to see it as a good thing. They see themselves as doing penance. Most background about them portrays them as having essentially lost their humanity.

Sounds to me like a perfect candidate regiment for Chaos to exploit. Mindlessly obedient robots? That's begging for an Alpha Legion agent to spring up and start suggesting things like "they blame you for your ancestors, is that really fair?"

**Deadshot**

Bobthehero wrote:
They fought the Alpha Legion at Vraks, and the Alpha's never tried to do anything like that, so I doubt it would magically work just like that,

Or was that an AL plot to lure the Imperium into thinking Krieg is immune to the AL's manipulation? I ask that without a hint or irony or humour.

@SREG, when you say alternatively, that implies that my argument isn't entirely incorrect either. I admit my argument isn't 100% guarenteed, but to me, in the grimdark future, my vision makes far more sense than yours.

**Deadshot**

Bobthehero wrote:
Maybe it was a move by the Inquisition who knew the AL would be there and sent troops they knew the AL couldn't sway.

Maybe its another far fetched scenario

Maybe the AL have infiltrated the Inquisition and did that on purpose to give the illusion...

We could do this all day. I've given my list of reasons why an all male army is more efficient cannon fodder, you've given yours, I don't think this going anywhere but in a circle.