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A simple question. I don't see why women couldn't be in the Death Korps but they seem conspicously absemt in the fluff.

The DKoK are born in vats. Take that how you will, but if I was making vat people, I'd use the genetic combinations that allowed for the highest level of performance at peak physical fitness.

There are no women in the DKoK. There are no men in the DKoK. There are only meat robots, to be expended as any other consumable item is expended to win a war. Do you ask what gender an artillery shell is? Do not ask it of the DKoK.

I would assume sexual organs would be unnecessary and another vulnerable point so if they can they would delete those?

Aren't some of the Kriegans born naturally? I'd say yes, but there would be few and they would probably be delegated to the rear guard duty, or logistics. IoM can't really afford sending only men to war.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A simple question. I don't see why women couldn't be in the Death Korps but they seem conspicously absemt in the fluff.

Men are more naturally adapted to physical exertion due to testerone building muscle faster.

Plus, they are still human. Putting a woman in might lead to sexual encounters. Last thing you need is half your cannon fodder deserting because of motherly instinct. Or getting raped by their clone brothers because they happen to be the only women they'll ever see. Or getting impregnated by some freaky alien that uses other species' females as incubators (it definitely exists somewhere in the galaxy). Sure, its possible that the source of the DNA might be gay but I feel they were choose a source who wasn't to minimise distractions. Plus it'd be fething weird to be attracted to your fellow clones. And women are unnecessary to their reproduction cycle as they are vat grown.

No, for what the DKoK are and do, which is march relentless into gunfire at any cost and grow new meatshields in a lab, the best and simplest method is make millions of men, all identical, all with no urges or free will of any kind and are proven to be combat effective.

I guess the general consensus is no. Personally I thought that they were 'normally' born at first, which gave the females something to do, but the vat-theory has more background behind it (Down amongst the Dead men in particular), so what Krieg females do in that case, dunno. Are the even Krieg females anymore?
Otherwise, I would say they wouldn't because the simple size difference would mean two sets of uniforms are needed, two sets of boots, maybe helmets etc. When dealing with the munititorum I would imagine one wants as few pieces as possible so there's less for them to screw up.

But in general the Imperium really doesn't care what your genitals are. Even the few laws that restrict people ("No Men under arms" and the SM issues) were all issued by the 35th millennium at the latest if I recall. It's probably worse to be born crippled (physically or mentally), as then you can no longer serve the Imperium.

One advantage of women in the IG is the potential to bunkerdown on a world and reproduce for another source of bodies. I mean, it's probably a great help to thoae wars that last centuries or millennia. Exhibit A being the women of Cadia. Birth in the field and whatnot.

 Selym wrote:
One advantage of women in the IG is the potential to bunkerdown on a world and reproduce for another source of bodies. I mean, it's probably a great help to thoae wars that last centuries or millennia. Exhibit A being the women of Cadia. Birth in the field and whatnot.

Very true, and it makes selling the presence of a new guard force much easier if there are women in it. It takes away some of the 'foreigner's coming to take our women' factor that history shows quickly leads to rebellion and general unpleasantness.

Mudrat wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One advantage of women in the IG is the potential to bunkerdown on a world and reproduce for another source of bodies. I mean, it's probably a great help to thoae wars that last centuries or millennia. Exhibit A being the women of Cadia. Birth in the field and whatnot.

Very true, and it makes selling the presence of a new guard force much easier if there are women in it. It takes away some of the 'foreigner's coming to take our women' factor that history shows quickly leads to rebellion and general unpleasantness.

On the other hand, those babies take a year to give birth, 15 odd years to raise them to fighting standards, and during the time of concieving the baby, they aren't garrisoning, and when pregnant, they are a liability, right up until the child is fully fighting. Doesn't matter how well trained they are, their first instinct as mothers is safety of their baby, which could mean anything from deserting to save the child from a life of meatgrinder, or disobeying orders to protect their child. Better, I feel, that none of the soldiers have personal attachments beyond "we were friends in Basic" so that if, for example, the child died at 15, the mother isn't going to rebel or lose her mind. Plus, 15 years in a family environment isn't what the DKOK are, they are cannon fodder from birth. The babies would be thrown into minefields as sweepers if effective. Plus, itd be quicker to vat-grow thousands of babies (and not risk pre-natal complications like autism, stillbirth, misshapenness), a tried, tested and efficient method, train them from the age of 2 and be combat ready at 13 or 14 instead of 15-18.

 Deadshot wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One advantage of women in the IG is the potential to bunkerdown on a world and reproduce for another source of bodies. I mean, it's probably a great help to thoae wars that last centuries or millennia. Exhibit A being the women of Cadia. Birth in the field and whatnot.

Very true, and it makes selling the presence of a new guard force much easier if there are women in it. It takes away some of the 'foreigner's coming to take our women' factor that history shows quickly leads to rebellion and general unpleasantness.

On the other hand, those babies take a year to give birth, 15 odd years to raise them to fighting standards, and during the time of concieving the baby, they aren't garrisoning, and when pregnant, they are a liability, right up until the child is fully fighting. Doesn't matter how well trained they are, their first instinct as mothers is safety of their baby, which could mean anything from deserting to save the child from a life of meatgrinder, or disobeying orders to protect their child. Better, I feel, that none of the soldiers have personal attachments beyond "we were friends in Basic" so that if, for example, the child died at 15, the mother isn't going to rebel or lose her mind. Plus, 15 years in a family environment isn't what the DKOK are, they are cannon fodder from birth. The babies would be thrown into minefields as sweepers if effective. Plus, itd be quicker to vat-grow thousands of babies (and not risk pre-natal complications like autism, stillbirth, misshapenness), a tried, tested and efficient method, train them from the age of 2 and be combat ready at 13 or 14 instead of 15-18.

True, with regards to the Death Korps at least. I kinda verged into talking about other regiments there. Namely, ones who give a feth what the locals think of them.

There is no such thing as friends in basic for the DKoK, squads are broken down regularly and those that protest are shot.

Personally, I am not overly fond of the vat theory. I believe there are females in the Korps, but with gas masks and heavy coats, it's entirely unnoticeable.

Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

commander dante wrote:
Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.

 Deadshot wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.

Not when you have ZERO EMOTION
(This is Taken from the 1d4chan page, with censoring)
"Krieg is a radioactive s**thole, and most of them are sterile. So sterile that most Kriegers are born of complex gene-cloning. Their society is absolutely militarized. Children are being born only to be filled with the guilt of their ancestors, trained and sent to die for their Emperor"

So you cant say "Basic Urge to Procreate" when they cant even do that in the first place, and require help from the Ad Mech

commander dante wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...

Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous

Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)

Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.

Not when you have ZERO EMOTION
(This is Taken from the 1d4chan page, with censoring)
"Krieg is a radioactive s**thole, and most of them are sterile. So sterile that most Kriegers are born of complex gene-cloning. Their society is absolutely militarized. Children are being born only to be filled with the guilt of their ancestors, trained and sent to die for their Emperor"

So you cant say "Basic Urge to Procreate" when they cant even do that in the first place, and require help from the Ad Mech

Sterility doesn't negate your urge to have sex, nor is the entirety of the population sterile. Need to breed has nothing to do with emotions either, its instinct. Its your basic genetics are being alive to stay alive by any means necessary (including in another form by putting your genes into a soup with someone else's.

I could see a really great story developing from this aboout a DKoK woman falling pregnant and going on the run from the authorities to protect...nah that's dumb as hell.

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.


That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Brainwashing is a thing though, DKoK are pretty much cloned, brainwashed and sent into the grinder. You can train behaviors out of a neutered dog, and you can brainwash a sterile clone to do whatever you want. They might think that primal instinct is a sin against the god emperor of mankind.
If you want personality, Dkok is not the place to look for it.

Switch to the fight for freedom, Renegades and Heretics accepts all races, sexes, species and doesn't care how many eyes or limbs you have.

40k is not based on modern morals. It is a dark terrible time where nothing is fair, equality doesn't exist, discrimination runs rampart and no one is safe.

There is probably women in the Death Korps of Krieg. Even if they are vats born, this doesn't mean they are clones. They might very well be produce from sperm and ovule taken from a previous batch of Krieg soldiers. This would allow them to have varience in physical and intellectual capacities which is useful for any army up to a certain degree allowing smarter members to become officers, smaller soldiers to fight in confined space or in tanks, bigger soldier to work in logistic, etc. Since there is no real reason to not use women as soldiers it seems logical there would be some. While technically «heretical» the Fantasy Flight game Only War, a rpg on guardsmen, allow for player to play men or women of any regiment including a Krieg Death Korp and Krieg Death Riders. Of course, since Kriegs are faceless and nearly emotionless, you might have some trouble identifying a men from a women at first glance and of course, they would not conform to our general expectation of how women should behave.

PS: I am rather surprised that many think that women soldiers could lead to pregnancy and rape, while men on men rape in the army is very well documented and much, much more prevalent than in the normal population and sterilisation of women by simply removing their Uterus is a rather simple, if extreme, procedure that systematically prevent pregnancy.

I'd guess they'd use all women to breed more soldiers instead. That'd not only be more efficient, but also more grimdark.


The most Kriegian answer however would be: There are no women in the Death Korps, nor are there men. In the Death Korps there are only numbers.

 Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

Krieg regiments don't have snipers

 Bobthehero wrote:
Krieg regiments don't have snipers

Their Artillery are Snipers....

 Kriegspiel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

You make really good points, all entirely accurate and I agree in principal, I just want to point out that none of those things are entirely relevant to the DKoK.

Snipers? DKoK throw men at the door until they can break through or use the bodies as a ladder.
Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Vehicles are not going to be redesigned to suit smaller bodies. You'll have smaller and taller men but they'll all use the same vehicles. Again, lifespan is 4 minutes on the battlefield, and tech is sacred. They wont defile a holy STC to redesign a Sentinel to suit a smaller person slightly better, they'll get a person better suited to the cockpit.
Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
That bit about being able to defend the village is a good point as well, but doesn't apply in 40k as a whole. The Imperium throws everything at once. If the DKOK 5000th isn't able to stop the Orks invading their homeworld, the PDF for that system isnt going to tickle the Greenskin army. Plus, its not like two rival villages going to war in the middle, its being shipped out to a system you've never heard of to be chucked onto the 41st Millennium version of the Eastern Front.
And any of the other battlefield roles are capable of being done by anyone. TRADITIONALLY they have been done by women to leave the strong powerful males free to fight. But in a society where it doesn't care about life or people, its not like men can't equally operate radios.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have women, just in a society where the main differential between them, hormones and reproduction, is completely irrelevant, and just causes more issues (brainwashing isnt guarenteed success, and waste of time, just take away the ability to procreate altogether is more efficient) than they are useful for, especially when its not a random 50/50 chance like breeding, but controllable, so just make the best soldiers possible with no distraction or anything else possible.

Krieg uses engineers and tunnel fighting. Usually to sap walls that the arty can't breach. Its usually a question of whether or not their enemy has such capacities.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I'd guess they'd use all women to breed more soldiers instead. That'd not only be more efficient, but also more grimdark.


The most Kriegian answer however would be: There are no women in the Death Korps, nor are there men. In the Death Korps there are only numbers.

Krieger 462-7: Commissar, 892-3 and 555-2 have breeded. 555-2 is currently pregnant.

Commissar: *shoots 462-7 for failing to stop this*

Commissar: *Orders 892-3 and 555-2's regiment to march to the enemy gunlines, to empty out their ammunition supplies*

 Deadshot wrote:

 Kriegspiel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

You make really good points, all entirely accurate and I agree in principal, I just want to point out that none of those things are entirely relevant to the DKoK.

Snipers? DKoK throw men at the door until they can break through or use the bodies as a ladder.
Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Vehicles are not going to be redesigned to suit smaller bodies. You'll have smaller and taller men but they'll all use the same vehicles. Again, lifespan is 4 minutes on the battlefield, and tech is sacred. They wont defile a holy STC to redesign a Sentinel to suit a smaller person slightly better, they'll get a person better suited to the cockpit.
Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
That bit about being able to defend the village is a good point as well, but doesn't apply in 40k as a whole. The Imperium throws everything at once. If the DKOK 5000th isn't able to stop the Orks invading their homeworld, the PDF for that system isnt going to tickle the Greenskin army. Plus, its not like two rival villages going to war in the middle, its being shipped out to a system you've never heard of to be chucked onto the 41st Millennium version of the Eastern Front.
And any of the other battlefield roles are capable of being done by anyone. TRADITIONALLY they have been done by women to leave the strong powerful males free to fight. But in a society where it doesn't care about life or people, its not like men can't equally operate radios.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have women, just in a society where the main differential between them, hormones and reproduction, is completely irrelevant, and just causes more issues (brainwashing isnt guarenteed success, and waste of time, just take away the ability to procreate altogether is more efficient) than they are useful for, especially when its not a random 50/50 chance like breeding, but controllable, so just make the best soldiers possible with no distraction or anything else possible.

There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

 godardc wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Kriegspiel wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Plus, as mentioned, males are naturally more attuned to total militarisation due to higher muscle growth and testosterone, so why make woman at all? Besides their reproductive abilities and the aforementioned difference, in a totally samey same same society like Krieg, there is no point to have lesser soldiers.
That's not to say that women are inferior or anything that could possibly rile up a feminist. Just in that particular society, ie, Krieg, men are the logical choice.

Even if what you say was true, "higher muscle growth and testosterone" is not mandatory except for basic grunt.
Just think about sniper: a smaller / lighter soldier can hide more easily, find some position on tree branch, half destroyed building that would collapse under the weight of Rambo Schwarzenegger, they are also smaller targets...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/smart-beautiful-deadly-19-year-old-russian-sniper-roza-shanina-54-confirmed-kills/
Moreover if women cannot make effort as intensive as men (running from cover to cover, climbing stairs quickly, giving hand to hand blows,...) they can produce the same moderate effort for a longer time as their body is built for a 9 month pregnancy.
They have more resistance to sleep (perfect for long overwatch) requires less food/water by day (better for set ambush several day in advance for Werwolf like strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Thank to their smaller size, women requires a smaller cockpit. The weight economy permit the transport of more ammunition & fuel.
Imagine some sentinels designed for 1.50m 50kg female pilot rather than 1.90m 90kg Catachan.
What is the need to be strong when you are inside a vehicule. In case of evacuation from damaged vehicule, lack of strength the remove blocking part is compensate by smaller size the pass by between

Strong male have some advantage for dealing with supersonic fighter acceleration, but in the case of an helicopter (or land speeder) design for tank hunting that moves slower between building during low level attack, such resistance is not needed.
For Tunnel Rat mission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat ) or when patrolling in sewer or cave, little Batgirl would do better than large Batman as she may be even able to stand up and run instead of walking on 4 legs.
Think about hive city or space hulk air vent network.

Of course women can also assume non-fighting role (radio operator, field nurse/medic, translator, cantinière..)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantini%C3%A8re

Women won't replace men with the same efficient but have better efficiency in their own role in the army.

Moreover in many warrior society (Viking settlers, Samurai), if woman didn't go to the battlefield, they had sufficient training to be able to protect the village/castle in case there was an attack during men absence or at least making sure that a single enemy band breaking throw the line won't be able to slaughter everyone and destroy everything without any lost or before men came back; for example "ko-naginata" was designed to be used by the ladies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata
So we can easily imagine a scenario about Ork Kommandos infiltration stopped by DKoK female reservists or some units of 100% female sniper deployed as scouts.
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/women-with-guns-the-red-army-female-snipers-of-world-war-ii/
but Jennete Vasquez colonial marine of Aliens should remain the exception as girl able to run and shot with heavy bolter
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Jenette_Vasquez

You make really good points, all entirely accurate and I agree in principal, I just want to point out that none of those things are entirely relevant to the DKoK.

Snipers? DKoK throw men at the door until they can break through or use the bodies as a ladder.
Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Vehicles are not going to be redesigned to suit smaller bodies. You'll have smaller and taller men but they'll all use the same vehicles. Again, lifespan is 4 minutes on the battlefield, and tech is sacred. They wont defile a holy STC to redesign a Sentinel to suit a smaller person slightly better, they'll get a person better suited to the cockpit.
Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
That bit about being able to defend the village is a good point as well, but doesn't apply in 40k as a whole. The Imperium throws everything at once. If the DKOK 5000th isn't able to stop the Orks invading their homeworld, the PDF for that system isnt going to tickle the Greenskin army. Plus, its not like two rival villages going to war in the middle, its being shipped out to a system you've never heard of to be chucked onto the 41st Millennium version of the Eastern Front.
And any of the other battlefield roles are capable of being done by anyone. TRADITIONALLY they have been done by women to leave the strong powerful males free to fight. But in a society where it doesn't care about life or people, its not like men can't equally operate radios.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have women, just in a society where the main differential between them, hormones and reproduction, is completely irrelevant, and just causes more issues (brainwashing isnt guarenteed success, and waste of time, just take away the ability to procreate altogether is more efficient) than they are useful for, especially when its not a random 50/50 chance like breeding, but controllable, so just make the best soldiers possible with no distraction or anything else possible.

There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

My emphasis is pure efficiency. While priests have the force of will to resist (or not, another debate) and women can get abortions, its simply more efficient to not have to concern yourself. Take away the need for strong will (a bad thing for a brainless army of soldiers), there will be no strong will. Its simply about removing margin of error or room for free thinking. And sex, being one of the primal instincts (hence why those priests are told to resist), gives them something to think about other than war.

There probably aren't, and if there were they would never allow them on the battlefield, as they have a bit of a problem with low population.

 godardc wrote:
There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

This «survey» (actualy a report) was actualy a collection of opinions and annecdote from 600 cases presented by the US marine corp. It was generally considered as crap by anybody with even a little bit of scientific education due to its gross methodology, annecdotal presentation of evidence and the fact that its conclusions about human physical capacities and gender differences were not supported by any scientific studies with good methodology and sufficient control on the same subject. In fact, this study was presented by some of its critique has a proof of how horrendously incompetent the US marine corp was at training women for combat. Their methods were described as counter productive, potentially dangerous and inadapted for women. This critique has been leveled at other armies and armed groups since and before. Many changes to training doctrines are currently studied right now to improve the situation. Open presence of women in the army is a very recent phenomenon and many changes to military culture and training will be necessary to fully integrate them.

This lead to an interesting question. How do the Death Korps train its soldiers? This is most likely going to affect the presence or abscence of women as well as providing us some decent insight has to how Krieg perceive warfare.

epronovost wrote:

 godardc wrote:
There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)... Mind you, I was like "women are as good soldiers as men, you don't need hand to hand combat anymore" etc... But in the face of FACTS, I changed my mind. So, if you want soldiers, take men. I think you are putting too much emphasize on the "procreation" thing. How many priests in the world ? How many women getting an abortion ? I think History showed us than people are perfectly able, and willing, to follow orders.

This «survey» (actualy a report) was actualy a collection of opinions and annecdote from 600 cases presented by the US marine corp. It was generally considered as crap by anybody with even a little bit of scientific education due to its gross methodology, annecdotal presentation of evidence and the fact that its conclusions about human physical capacities and gender differences were not supported by any scientific studies with good methodology and sufficient control on the same subject. In fact, this study was presented by some of its critique has a proof of how horrendously incompetent the US marine corp was at training women for combat. Their methods were described as counter productive, potentially dangerous and inadapted for women. This critique has been leveled at other armies and armed groups since and before. Many changes to training doctrines are currently studied right now to improve the situation. Open presence of women in the army is a very recent phenomenon and many changes to military culture and training will be necessary to fully integrate them.

This lead to an interesting question. How do the Death Korps train its soldiers? This is most likely going to affect the presence or abscence of women as well as providing us some decent insight has to how Krieg perceive warfare.

Again, another good reason for the Kriegers to not have women. Why adapt when you can just not have to bother? Krieg is a society totallygeared towards troops in warfare, everything I'm saying simply translates to "cut out any extra work." Sure you can adapt different methods to indoctrinate them to not follow instincts, train differently, etc, but why not jst remove an instinct altogether, simplify the training scheme, have 1 size fits all because all fit into that one size system?

I mean, the Orks have the most perfect society possible for this. They have a totally singular gender (male-ish), as they don't need sexual reproduction, they all follow the same training method (DNA hardwire and just fighting) and no one questions the status quo because there's no reason not to.

Krieg is just the human version of Orkdom