Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Selym wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I'd guess they'd use all women to breed more soldiers instead. That'd not only be more efficient, but also more grimdark.


The most Kriegian answer however would be: There are no women in the Death Korps, nor are there men. In the Death Korps there are only numbers.

Krieger 462-7: Commissar, 892-3 and 555-2 have breeded. 555-2 is currently pregnant.

Commissar: *shoots 462-7 for failing to stop this*

Commissar: *Orders 892-3 and 555-2's regiment to march to the enemy gunlines, to empty out their ammunition supplies*

Still a better love story than Twilight.

Given there lifespan..
Even woman can get some drugs to make them more stronger, muscular and masculine in training..

Meat tor near grinder. With steroids etc, and right 40k drugs, there basically men...

Makes sense not to waste bodies.

 jhe90 wrote:
Given there lifespan..
Even woman can get some drugs to make them more stronger, muscular and masculine in training..

Meat tor near grinder. With steroids etc, and right 40k drugs, there basically men...

Makes sense not to waste bodies.

You aren't wasting bodies of you vat grow only men. Vatting women requires a second set of gear, and your suggestion of drugs is just another costly suply for one dewd or dewdette who is justbthere to be a meatshield.

Drug the men, get better rezults?

They're already mindless bullet magnets... What's there to improve?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Drug the men, get better rezults?

To much steroid in men produce the development of feminine characteristics has the body tries to adjust his chemistry. That's why some culturist developped atrophied penis, sterility, brain damage, heart conditions, muscle weakness, deafness and even functioning breasts.

You might prefer your soldiers to be capable of fighting., but if you just want them strong, well go right ahead!

Oh yeah, because the Kriegers will totally live that long to develop all those issues. Without a doubt, mhmm, yup yup yup. After all, the DKOK is known for its staggering amount of soldiers not getting killed.

 Selym wrote:
You aren't wasting bodies of you vat grow only men. Vatting women requires a second set of gear,

Is that some actual fluff or is it your interpretation of how some terrible method that is only mentionned in ominous rumors, that is supposed to greatly increase the population renewal, and that is considered with extreme defiance in the rest of the imperium work?
If it was actually just your interpretation of a very vague and ominous rumor rather than some cold hard fluff, then why are you not presenting it as such?


It's not that hard, really. Instead of saying "Vatting women requires a second set of gear", you say "Well, maybe the Vitae Womb (that we know basically nothing about) functions in such a way that making both males and females Korpers would require a second set of gear?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
feminine characteristics [...] brain damage

Okay .

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh yeah, because the Kriegers will totally live that long to develop all those issues. Without a doubt, mhmm, yup yup yup. After all, the DKOK is known for its staggering amount of soldiers not getting killed.

All those issue can be developped in less than 6 months. If they live for more than that from the start of their training to their first battle, than yes they can and many would. Athletes who dope themselves do it with the support of a medical team and take several other drugs just to minimise the negative effect.

6 months.

Good joke

Krieg officers tend to live that long (Or more accuratelg, live long enough to be officers). I would imagine they would need their mental faculties intact.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Selym wrote:
You aren't wasting bodies of you vat grow only men. Vatting women requires a second set of gear,

Is that some actual fluff or is it your interpretation of how some terrible method that is only mentionned in ominous rumors, that is supposed to greatly increase the population renewal, and that is considered with extreme defiance in the rest of the imperium work?
If it was actually just your interpretation of a very vague and ominous rumor rather than some cold hard fluff, then why are you not presenting it as such?


It's not that hard, really. Instead of saying "Vatting women requires a second set of gear", you say "Well, maybe the Vitae Womb (that we know basically nothing about) functions in such a way that making both males and females Korpers would require a second set of gear?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
feminine characteristics [...] brain damage

Okay .

A) Vat growth is a part of Krieg fluff in the same way The Lion and the Fallen are part of Dark Angels. Its a deep dark secret rumour that other people in universe have heard and its deep dark secretive, it could be true, its sounds good and grimdark, or it could be total bollocks.

B) It just makes logical sense that you would need 2 sets of gear, or at least 2 blueprints. Imagine a 3D printer trying to print a Krieg model wholesale, you need 1 blueprint and 1 design. Now if you wanted to also print a female Krieger (GW style with pronounced boobplate and feminine stance), you need another blueprint, and you're also using the same material to make the female so you're burning through more material to produce the same amount of males.


C) Now you're using costly alternation drugs to make women into men-like beings when you could just make men from the start? Again, 3D printer, its like taking the female and adding greenstuff and cutting to make it look like the male version. Its a waste of time and cost.

D) You need an army to hold the things you capture. Kriegers have a lifespan of around 4 minutes, but not every Krieger is going to perish in battle, and you certainly don't plan it that way. You need someone capable of garrisoning the fortress, and as I previously said, women add complications to any non-warzone situation, such as sexual urges/pregnancy, big brother protectiveness, hell, even basic things like menstuation. Ever lived with more than 3 women all synced? Its like a seen from a horror movie. You breathe too loud and then come at you with butcher knives, heads spinning 360°. Do Krieg women get extra powerful emotion dampeners to counter this (thereby adding more cost) or drugs (more cost), or just left to be moody and emotional, a great recipe to turn them to Chaos or their male counterparts. Do you even provide tampons, yet another cost, or let them suffer, another way to sow dissent?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Selym wrote:
You aren't wasting bodies of you vat grow only men. Vatting women requires a second set of gear,

Is that some actual fluff or is it your interpretation of how some terrible method that is only mentionned in ominous rumors, that is supposed to greatly increase the population renewal, and that is considered with extreme defiance in the rest of the imperium work?
If it was actually just your interpretation of a very vague and ominous rumor rather than some cold hard fluff, then why are you not presenting it as such?

oldravenman3025 kindly quoted relevant parts.

oldravenman3025 wrote:It's a method of "genetic reproduction" that involves the "mass production of Human organisms". Supposedly, the technology is little understood anywhere else besides Krieg. And it's considered dangerous and abhorrent by the Biologis.

I've never read anything which suggests it uses cloning (in the fictional sense) or is selective enough to produce only women.

 Deadshot wrote:
B) It just makes logical sense that you would need 2 sets of gear, or at least 2 blueprints.

As SomeRandomEvilGuy mention, it's not that obvious.
Suppose that the Vitae Womb (I used to think it was Vitae Bomb ^^) is a technology to make women hyper-fertile, giving birth to quadruplets and stuff. Then it would be more costly to ensure it also only give birth to men.

 Deadshot wrote:
and as I previously said, women add complications to any non-warzone situation, such as sexual urges/pregnancy

Sterilization is easy and sexual urge… ever heard of homosexuality? It's quite fashionable these days, and it's hardly a new thing…

 Deadshot wrote:
big brother protectiveness

That 100% cultural thing for a completely different culture where people are numbers?

 Deadshot wrote:
hell, even basic things like menstuation.

I'm like, WTF?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
B) It just makes logical sense that you would need 2 sets of gear, or at least 2 blueprints.

As SomeRandomEvilGuy mention, it's not that obvious.
Suppose that the Vitae Womb (I used to think it was Vitae Bomb ^^) is a technology to make women hyper-fertile, giving birth to quadruplets and stuff. Then it would be more costly to ensure it also only give birth to men.

 Deadshot wrote:
and as I previously said, women add complications to any non-warzone situation, such as sexual urges/pregnancy

Sterilization is easy and sexual urge… ever heard of homosexuality? It's quite fashionable these days, and it's hardly a new thing…

 Deadshot wrote:
big brother protectiveness

That 100% cultural thing for a completely different culture where people are numbers?

 Deadshot wrote:
hell, even basic things like menstuation.

I'm like, WTF?

A) Quite possibly, and its quite possibly its like how I describe, a giant birthing pot. We don't know.

B) Sterilisation doesn't mean lack of sex drive. There's still desire to have sex. Sex builds relationships. Relationships and emotional attachment is a complication you absolutely don't want in your army. Also, if Vitae womb is a giant birthing pot, as I believe it be, then all the spawn ill be genetically similar, if not identical, because they'll pick genes that are beneficial.

C) Is it a cultural thing? Or is it something bred into us over millennia of men because the fighters and women being victims of enemy males killing/raping/enslaving/all three, them? Stereotypes are always based in reality and dialled up to an extremism.

D) Its a real issue. How do you deal with the fact your soldiers are all bleeding profusely, moody and irrational once a month? You can't have them constantly strapped up with those masks 24/7, 365. You're going to have a period (no pun) qhere you have a couple thousand women ready to kill each other because they don't a tampon. That seems a mighty fine way to instigate a Chaos incursion, where Khorne pops in due to huge amounts of blood and rage at any one time and promises to give them the power to get their revenge on their oppressive masters.

 Deadshot wrote:
You're going to have a period (no pun) qhere you have a couple thousand women ready to kill each other because they don't a tampon. That seems a mighty fine way to instigate a Chaos incursion, where Khorne pops in due to huge amounts of blood and rage at any one time and promises to give them the power to get their revenge on their oppressive masters.

WTF?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
You're going to have a period (no pun) qhere you have a couple thousand women ready to kill each other because they don't a tampon. That seems a mighty fine way to instigate a Chaos incursion, where Khorne pops in due to huge amounts of blood and rage at any one time and promises to give them the power to get their revenge on their oppressive masters.

WTF?

Are you actually denying that women have menstrual cycles, or are you just not getting me?

Lots of angry bleeding people? That's Khorne's MO.

Modern women moan constantly about the cost of female hygiene products, rightfully so, but imagine if there simply wasn't any at all? That's what Krieg would be, because why waste time and resources outfitting them with tampons? Its just added cost. Those same women? They get mad when they have the time of month, plus the fact they now don't have any relief from that. On their own, they don't have anything to do or resist.

That seems to me the perfect time for Khorne to drop in and be like "Yo, I'll give you that slavering berserk fury you need to break from this bs and take revenge." And when Chaos gods come knocking, usually you now have an insurrection.


Taking away from all that, you now have a whole bunch of women to get tampons for in the army...how is that not an unnecessary burden when you can simply selectively breed out that entire gender, for a physically stronger, tougher and less costly gender who make better soldiers?

This does make some degree of sense. Rule of grim and dark 'n' all.

 Deadshot wrote:
Are you actually denying that women have menstrual cycles, or are you just not getting me?

No, I think you are just overestimating how big a problem it is. It is inconvenient, but like most inconveniences it can pretty much be ignored in life or death situations like warfare.

I don't really see why they wouldn't have women serving in some capacity, even if it's a less frontline position, whether medical, logistical, whatever. At the end of the day, DKoK more than most need the extra bodies and the Imperium - and probably including Krieg - aren't exactly starved for them. As has been elaborated on here, I imagine all of the vat-grown Kriegsmen are male, but I don't think it's out of the question for women to be serving. I think the whole "but what about relationships?" thing breaks down a bit when Kriegsmen are more or less brainwashed, and those type of situations are much less likely to foster. Considering the mortality rate of the Death Corps that problem is likely going to sort itself out long before it becomes one.

We know some Guardsmen regiments depending on how their planet functions have mixed gendered units, we know some are female-only. I think the latter seems more likely for the Death Korps and how they're more or less just statistics even by the standards of the Imperial Guard, it makes it a lot easier to put all of those with [F] next to their name into one column and all of the ones with [M] in another. Obviously I'm simplifying it a bit but you see what I'm getting at.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Are you actually denying that women have menstrual cycles, or are you just not getting me?

No, I think you are just overestimating how big a problem it is. It is inconvenient, but like most inconveniences it can pretty much be ignored in life or death situations like warfare.

But, as I said, the Kriegers aren't in constant war. There will be times when they simply aren't at war. Either a war has been won and the troops are in the months afterwards, in a year long transit between systems in the warp, garrisoning a world or simply aren't in war. Its inconvenient, but inconvenient can very quickly turn to outrageous and then to protest worthy. I would also hazard a guess that as a guy, what you or I (I assume you are a guy) see as inconvenient is downright infuriating to some women out there. I mean, wasn't it posted early about female soldiers finally getting a combat worthy bra that wouldn't lead to painful compression like a sportsbra would? I feel even in a life or death situation, the servicewomen of the world are still getting tampons on the front lines.

 Deadshot wrote:
Either a war has been won and the troops are in the months afterwards, in a year long transit between systems in the warp, garrisoning a world or simply aren't in war. Its inconvenient, but inconvenient can very quickly turn to outrageous and then to protest worthy.

They are Death Korps of Krieg. What little personality they have left by the time they are ready for war is brainwashed into complete obedience.

Guardsmen cannot 'protest'. Those that do are used as targets in live-fire exercises.

(I assume you are a guy)

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I feel even in a life or death situation, the servicewomen of the world are still getting tampons on the front lines.

In most militaries you are not shot for failing to praise the Emperor either.

They are probably just given a piece of cloth or something and told to make do, now go shoot some xenos.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Either a war has been won and the troops are in the months afterwards, in a year long transit between systems in the warp, garrisoning a world or simply aren't in war. Its inconvenient, but inconvenient can very quickly turn to outrageous and then to protest worthy.

They are Death Korps of Krieg. What little personality they have left by the time they are ready for war is brainwashed into complete obedience.

Guardsmen cannot 'protest'. Those that do are used as targets in live-fire exercises.

(I assume you are a guy)

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I feel even in a life or death situation, the servicewomen of the world are still getting tampons on the front lines.

In most militaries you are not shot for failing to praise the Emperor either.

They are probably just given a piece of cloth or something and told to make do, now go shoot some xenos.

Total brainwashing is not possibly without lobotomy. There is always going to be a degree of autonomy needed, be it in squad, company or regiment level officers, or the ability to recognise and take advantage of a situation. Even the DKOK are not going to throw bodies mindlessly at an impenetrable gate when there's an undefended sewage hatch right over there, and there absolutely needs to be someone, anyone, capable of recognising strategic opportunity. Its simply inefficient.

How long does it go before those DKOK who are unhappy learn to quietly brood, stewing their rage, until a Chaos god or Alpha Legion agent comes with whispers of a better way?

Also, apologies on the gender assumption.

 Deadshot wrote:
Total brainwashing is not possibly without lobotomy. There is always going to be a degree of autonomy needed, be it in squad, company or regiment level officers, or the ability to recognise and take advantage of a situation. Even the DKOK are not going to throw bodies mindlessly at an impenetrable gate when there's an undefended sewage hatch right over there, and there absolutely needs to be someone, anyone, capable of recognising strategic opportunity. Its simply inefficient.

How long does it go before those DKOK who are unhappy learn to quietly brood, stewing their rage, until a Chaos god or Alpha Legion agent comes with whispers of a better way?

Also, apologies on the gender assumption.

We are talking about regiments who have Commissars put there to stop themselves from pouring into the meatgrinder. They'll have officers who can hopefully spot such things but in general, they are a throw more artillery and men at it regiment.

DKOK who are unhappy are liable to see it as a good thing. They see themselves as doing penance. Most background about them portrays them as having essentially lost their humanity.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Total brainwashing is not possibly without lobotomy. There is always going to be a degree of autonomy needed, be it in squad, company or regiment level officers, or the ability to recognise and take advantage of a situation. Even the DKOK are not going to throw bodies mindlessly at an impenetrable gate when there's an undefended sewage hatch right over there, and there absolutely needs to be someone, anyone, capable of recognising strategic opportunity. Its simply inefficient.

How long does it go before those DKOK who are unhappy learn to quietly brood, stewing their rage, until a Chaos god or Alpha Legion agent comes with whispers of a better way?

Also, apologies on the gender assumption.

We are talking about regiments who have Commissars put there to stop themselves from pouring into the meatgrinder. They'll have officers who can hopefully spot such things but in general, they are a throw more artillery and men at it regiment.

DKOK who are unhappy are liable to see it as a good thing. They see themselves as doing penance. Most background about them portrays them as having essentially lost their humanity.

Sounds to me like a perfect candidate regiment for Chaos to exploit. Mindlessly obedient robots? That's begging for an Alpha Legion agent to spring up and start suggesting things like "they blame you for your ancestors, is that really fair?"

Maybe, maybe not, but it is the lore either way.

They fought the Alpha Legion at Vraks, and the Alpha's never tried to do anything like that, so I doubt it would magically work just like that,

 Deadshot wrote:

Sounds to me like a perfect candidate regiment for Chaos to exploit. Mindlessly obedient robots? That's begging for an Alpha Legion agent to spring up and start suggesting things like "they blame you for your ancestors, is that really fair?"

Alternatively being mindlessly obedient means Chaos doesn't have a way in. Could potentially trick them into fighting other loyalists but that's the same with every regiment.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They fought the Alpha Legion at Vraks, and the Alpha's never tried to do anything like that, so I doubt it would magically work just like that,

Or was that an AL plot to lure the Imperium into thinking Krieg is immune to the AL's manipulation? I ask that without a hint or irony or humour.

@SREG, when you say alternatively, that implies that my argument isn't entirely incorrect either. I admit my argument isn't 100% guarenteed, but to me, in the grimdark future, my vision makes far more sense than yours.

Maybe it was a move by the Inquisition who knew the AL would be there and sent troops they knew the AL couldn't sway.

Maybe its another far fetched scenario