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This lead to an interesting question. How do the Death Korps train its soldiers? This is most likely going to affect the presence or abscence of women as well as providing us some decent insight has to how Krieg perceive warfare.
Extreme brutally, removal of identity, it finishes with a live fire exercises agaisnt people who were rejected, possibly from birth, in theory, every Kriegsman that was shipped out has already survived one fight.
Again, another good reason for the Kriegers to not have women. Why adapt when you can just not have to bother? Krieg is a society totallygeared towards troops in warfare, everything I'm saying simply translates to "cut out any extra work." Sure you can adapt different methods to indoctrinate them to not follow instincts, train differently, etc, but why not jst remove an instinct altogether, simplify the training scheme, have 1 size fits all because all fit into that one size system?
I mean, the Orks have the most perfect society possible for this. They have a totally singular gender (male-ish), as they don't need sexual reproduction, they all follow the same training method (DNA hardwire and just fighting) and no one questions the status quo because there's no reason not to.
Krieg is just the human version of Orkdom
Considering that some Krieg soldiers have been described has men you are correct. It's much less costly, if less overall effective, to have one size fits all type of training, but for the sake of the argument, the reverse might totally be a thing. You might very well have an army made only of women for the exact same reason than an army made of only men.
Again, another good reason for the Kriegers to not have women. Why adapt when you can just not have to bother? Krieg is a society totallygeared towards troops in warfare, everything I'm saying simply translates to "cut out any extra work." Sure you can adapt different methods to indoctrinate them to not follow instincts, train differently, etc, but why not jst remove an instinct altogether, simplify the training scheme, have 1 size fits all because all fit into that one size system?
I mean, the Orks have the most perfect society possible for this. They have a totally singular gender (male-ish), as they don't need sexual reproduction, they all follow the same training method (DNA hardwire and just fighting) and no one questions the status quo because there's no reason not to.
Krieg is just the human version of Orkdom
Considering that some Krieg soldiers have been described has men you are correct. It's much less costly, if less overall effective, to have one size fits all type of training, but for the sake of the argument, the reverse might totally be a thing. You might very well have an army made only of women for the exact same reason than an army made of only men.
I totally agree. The Death Korps could have eaily have been entirely female and been the exact same thing, and I'd be finding different arguments as to why they'd be the superior choice to a mixed army. Circumstance, eh?
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Bobthehero wrote: For what its worth, the two examples of official unmasked Kriegsmen always have been men
Indeed, its possible that all Krieg soldiers are men and their training seems to demonstrate that they are a traditional men dominated military with extra grimdark elements like mandatory murder and dehumanisation. They might very well have women and don't care about the specific of their biology in their training method; relying on the fact that their society is basically genderless to smooth out those differences. In the end, I think this is mostly an open question that fans are supposed to answer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/23 23:23:09
For anyone familiar with the later books in the Dune series, you'll instantly pick up on my thinking here.
What if the 'vats' are biological incubation chambers (such as those the Tleilaxu use). ie: The reason you don't see any obvious women, is because the women are converted into brain-dead incubators churning out new recruits (or spice in the case of the DUNE universe).
Perhaps that's more grim-dark than even GW would go
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Some of the death korps are naturally born and others, to fill out the tithe requirements, are created in vats.
Sex wise, the Death Korps can be filled with whatever or whomever you want for the purposes of your project.
There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)...
Maybe become they put wrong women in men function rather than relying on good woman in specifically in dedicated role.
Error is to give women the same equipment and training as men while the body are obviously (except for transgender) different.
For example female soldiers had to complain to get a real military bra
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11009168/Women-soldiers-demand-sports-bras-to-protect-them-on-active-duty.html Civilian/casual ones were not fit for military condition and the sport ones perfect for exercice, SWAT like quick assault could not be worn during a several days search & destroy patrol because of compression.
You want experiment and stats?
Take a standard high school class (16-18) without specific training
organize a boxing challenge: boys will win.
organize a fencing challenge using light fleuret I doubt result will be the same.
Compare self defence video course for women only and ones featuring men only
The 1st once relies more on strike fist viciously in painful area, run away and shout for help.
The 2nd once relies on cool down the situation, speak normally, avoid general brawl and make sure you just defend yourselt against the criminal who strike first be disarming, stopping and controlling him until Police come showing you are the perfect citizen you is reluctant to injure any one and gently wait for the Police.
For Police and Justice in street fight the male is always the bad violent rapist and the women the innocent victim that stopped him, so the "Strike first an run away while castrated guy is on ground" is OK for girls but not for boy as when the Police see one guy (or worst one girl) on ground an one guy running away, the one on ground is the victim, the running away the aggressor who could be shot in the back if not stopping when officer says "freeze" in some states.
I never see a self-defence video showing a men punching an aggressive ugly woman breast and escaping for help while I saw dozen of groin kick by more or less sexy instructors
Moreover in case of mixed forces, the best strategy for the ennemy is always "shoot the female first" therefore increasing the female loss rate.
In case full 100% female squad, this is irrelevant.
Why shot "shoot the female first" ? because:
1) the fear of been raped makes the female fighting until death or KO while male relies on some kind of warrior honour for prisoners.
If a male soldier is taken by some kind of rebel, he knows that he represent an exchange value alive and as most of terrorist, insurgent are not gay, the rape risk is low.
The female one knows that raped or not, pregnant or not, she will have the same value as prisoner and even a greater value on sex-slave market.
If the rape risk exist with Genestealer hybrid, Slaanesh cultist or Dark Eldar (in such case even for men), I have some doubt with Necron
2) when a male is shot, the brother in arms makes quick first ais then want the avenge him by killing back the bastard
when female is wounded, it generates more often the "little sister & big brother" syndrom because of animal instinct that reveals during fights. This means 1st priority is to keep the female alive and evacuate her in safe area.
This is because of this instinctive behaviour that all mammals species or human endogamy ethnics (like occidental ones) have survive until today.
For bastard relying on female capture raid, rape and polygamy, this doesn't apply so they have no problem about killed the other camp woman or leaving theirs dying since they know they can capture new ones once they breach in civilian area.
3) some fanatics believe that been killed by a woman prevents them getting virgins sluts in the afterlife
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11110724/Isil-fanatics-fear-being-killed-by-a-woman-will-deprive-them-of-virgins-in-paradise.html
So no wonder that in an ambush there are more women killed than men: they are targeted 1st!
DKoK must like any army have back line and logistics. "weak girl" could be put their to free as mucch as possible the "strong boy" for the front line.
If Krieg people were only male the would extinct after a generation except if their was some DAESH sex slave polygamy or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn (BIP! Godwin point!)
hear as well the Lebensborn nurse and midwife should be able to defend themselves.
I know it's cinema but 40K is nothing else than game/book/cinematic so keep in mind the final battle of "Full Metal Jacket" where a single viet-cong pigtailed teenage girl slow inflicts losses and stops for hours a full platoon of fanatically trained marines
before needing full M-16 ammo clip and extra head shot to die.
If DKoK doesn't have in today codex the equivalent of the "ratling snipers squad" or the "catachan sniper" nothing can prevent designer to but "female sniper squad" in the next codex or just now on GW site if the marketing team thinks it will bring money.
Concerning the pregnancy did you hear about sterilisation or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraceptive_implant ?
It could be available in the future and provided in enrollement just as standard vaccination.
Back to 1st World War (as DKoK is inspired from trench troopers), despite they were not name sniper the 1870 french "Francs-Tireurs" where in the memory of the 1914-1918 german troops, so featuring them is not irrelevant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francs-tireurs#World_War_I
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/24 10:14:43
There was a survey (a study ?) made by the American Army (or the Marines ? I don't remember) just some months ago. Posted here on DakkaDakka. Women had more injuries, were worst soldiers (not even as as accurate as the men)...
Maybe become they put wrong women in men function rather than relying on good woman in specifically in dedicated role. Error is to give women the same equipment and training as men while the body are obviously (except for transgender) different. For example female soldiers had to complain to get a real military bra http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11009168/Women-soldiers-demand-sports-bras-to-protect-them-on-active-duty.html Civilian/casual ones were not fit for military condition and the sport ones perfect for exercice, SWAT like quick assault could not be worn during a several days search & destroy patrol because of compression.
Moreover in case of mixed forces, the best strategy for the ennemy is always "shoot the female first" therefore increasing the female loss rate. In case full 100% female squad, this is irrelevant. Why shot "shoot the female first" ? because: 1) the fear of been raped makes the female fighting until death or KO while male relies on some kind of warrior honour for prisoners. If a male soldier is taken by some kind of rebel, he knows that he represent an exchange value alive and as most of terrorist, insurgent are not gay, the rape risk is low. The female one knows that raped or not, pregnant or not, she will have the same value as prisoner and even a greater value on sex-slave market. If the rape risk exist with Genestealer hybrid, Slaanesh cultist or Dark Eldar (in such case even for men), I have some doubt with Necron 2) when a male is shot, the brother in arms makes quick first ais then want the avenge him by killing back the bastard when female is wounded, it generates more often the "little sister & big brother" syndrom because of animal instinct that reveals during fights. This means 1st priority is to keep the female alive and evacuate her in safe area. This is because of this instinctive behaviour that all mammals species or human endogamy ethnics (like occidental ones) have survive until today. For bastard relying on female capture raid, rape and polygamy, this doesn't apply so they have no problem about killed the other camp woman or leaving theirs dying since they know they can capture new ones once they breach in civilian area. 3) some fanatics believe that been killed by a woman prevents them getting virgins sluts in the afterlife http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11110724/Isil-fanatics-fear-being-killed-by-a-woman-will-deprive-them-of-virgins-in-paradise.html
So no wonder that in an ambush there are more women killed than men: they are targeted 1st!
DKoK must like any army have back line and logistics. "weak girl" could be put their to free as mucch as possible the "strong boy" for the front line. If Krieg people were only male the would extinct after a generation except if their was some DAESH sex slave polygamy or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn (BIP! Godwin point!) hear as well the Lebensborn nurse and midwife should be able to defend themselves.
Well that's what I've been saying for the whole thread, the majority of Kriegers are vat grown in a large cooking pot, giving birth the traditional way just seems too long to both with. They might need a steady supply of eggs, but again, that reduces the females to being harvested as their most efficient role.
Also, you use several arguments that Krieg don't really care about.
Rape? Well, rape doesn't exist in 40k right? But really, Kriegers will have had that bred and beaten out of them, and as you say, if both are capable of being raped in such a manner by Slaanesh, Deldar or Genestealers, its irrelevant, especially as that fear is bred out of them. They have 0 value as PoWs, they are literally a dime a dozen. Kriegers also don't have a "apply first aid, avenge, emtional big brother connection" thing. Have emotions gives free will. Avenging means not following orders to march to death. Applying first aid is wasting medical supplies on an easily replacable trooper while also not marching into enemy fire. They also don't have "evacuate the wounded."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 09:39:45
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Deadshot wrote: Rape? Well, rape doesn't exist in 40k right?
Actually it's quite strange that their is no rule concerning infection by "genestealer kiss". Rogue Trader was very explicit about the way Genestealers were, well, using their tongues for stealing human genes to replacing by their.
"This perhaps is the greatest horror the Genestealers bring, as they can infect almost any lifeform with a "kiss," implanting some of their own genetic material into the host and taking complete control of its reproductive system."
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Genestealer Isn't this fitting the definition of rape?
Demoralized units destroyed in their retreat or in assault by GS Hybrids (or Daemonettes) should be considered as captured, contaminated/corrupted and, in campaign mod, giving extra hybrids to Tyrannids next battle or at least extra points.
Deadshot wrote: But really, Kriegers will have had that bred and beaten out of them, and as you say, if both are capable of being raped in such a manner by Slaanesh, Deldar or Genestealers, its irrelevant, especially as that fear is bred out of them.
You're perfectly right
In such case, since a women can only give birth +/- once a year during +/- 20 years, the infection of a young male soldier, you can virtually contaminate 1 women every night if more dangerous, except if they are few available woman.
In this case, as it is easier for an infected woman (behaving now as Hive agent) to get quickly a man for a since night than for a man to convince a woman to fulfil 9 month pregnancy + 15 years of chil rising, if is quite dangerous to expose woman the Genestealers.
This may explain with GI doesn't want to expose women to Tyrannid (or Chaos), since it would required definite sterilization or DNA test after end of duty as Imperium needs them to give birth to cannon fodder after their duty.
So obviously they would prefer evacuation rather than self-defence training of woman.
Against this, I have no argument as its wise and logical: less woman on front line means less chaos or stealer cult children in back line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 10:44:05
Or the guard could, you know, check everyone after a battle with genestealers. This 'kiss' presumably leaves some sort of mark, so just have the commissar's strip everyone (and I mean everyone within a mile radius of the genestealers) naked and checked thoroughly.
If the Commissar has a sense of humour, he/she will let the guardsmen/women check him/her after they're done
If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited.
Mudrat wrote: Or the guard could, you know, check everyone after a battle with genestealers. This 'kiss' presumably leaves some sort of mark, so just have the commissar's strip everyone (and I mean everyone within a mile radius of the genestealers) naked and checked thoroughly.
If the Commissar has a sense of humour, he/she will let the guardsmen/women check him/her after they're done
That only works if they know about the Genestealers in the first place. Genestealers are super stealthy, most times you'll never know you have a billion strong infestation. And against a full hive fleet, Genestealers are the least of your corncerns unless they are bursting from your bathtub. Plus, from the moment the infection happens, they are completely under the Genestealer's control, meaning they will probably assassinate the leadership if they start getting checked on.
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Nope, they're clones. Now, there might be another planet out there that has a DKoK style army or armor that does. But Krieg itself doesn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 17:58:51
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TheCustomLime wrote: A simple question. I don't see why women couldn't be in the Death Korps but they seem conspicously absemt in the fluff.
There are quasi heretical events going on in the DKOK in order for them to make thier tithe quota.
I'm pretty sure most women are used as den mothers constantly birthing new tithe. It's also likely they are genetically producing more males for the tithe and only producing as many females as they require to keep the population at full production.
But no there are almost no women in dkok. Even if you subscribe to the vat grown theory of dkok troopers then it's highly likely those vat grown recruits are male only, making females even less likely to serve in anything but a planetary defense force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 20:04:10
TheCustomLime wrote: A simple question. I don't see why women couldn't be in the Death Korps but they seem conspicously absemt in the fluff.
There are quasi heretical events going on in the DKOK in order for them to make thier tithe quota.
I'm pretty sure most women are used as den mothers constantly birthing new tithe. It's also likely they are genetically producing more males for the tithe and only producing as many females as they require to keep the population at full production.
But no there are almost no women in dkok. Even if you subscribe to the vat grown theory of dkok troopers then it's highly likely those vat grown recruits are male only, making females even less likely to serve in anything but a planetary defense force.
This. It's a combination of the two. Vitae-Womb technology is seen as abhorrent by many in the Magos Biologis, but Krieg has special writ to use it from the Senatorum and Munitorium. However, natural birth by fertile women happens, and is expected in order to help keep up the supply of recruits, not to mention, domestic labor. Krieg also practices strict policies of eugenics and weeding out mutations among the population. With that being said, it is highly unlikely that there are very few, if any, females in the Death Korps. They are needed elsewhere in Krieg's never-ending mission of atonement for their shameful past.
commander dante wrote: Ah hold on, lemme flick though Siege of Vraks and Fall of Orpheus real quick (and the 1d4chan page)...
Im pretty sure it wouldnt matter what gender you are in the Death Korps, as DKoK are teached into their Doctine FROM BIRTH and their training (digging trenches, learning to use artillery, how to be meat for the meat grinder) is rigorous
Plus, They're told that they hold the burden of thier ancestors, so dying in battle is the #1 way to go
Plus their Gas Masks have an Emotion Limiter, So it makes them loyal to the end without questioning orders (E.G chuck yourself into the meat grinder)
Training and indoctrination only go so far. There's still the basic urge to procreate (ie, basic instinct of every living creature), and protect said procreation. The later overrides even self-survival instinct.
Not when you have ZERO EMOTION
(This is Taken from the 1d4chan page, with censoring)
"Krieg is a radioactive s**thole, and most of them are sterile. So sterile that most Kriegers are born of complex gene-cloning. Their society is absolutely militarized. Children are being born only to be filled with the guilt of their ancestors, trained and sent to die for their Emperor"
So you cant say "Basic Urge to Procreate" when they cant even do that in the first place, and require help from the Ad Mech
That is fluff dependent. Some writers have the Kriegers being cold, but still personable. Others portray them as near-drone like automata.
However, I don't buy the notion of the men of Krieg being emotionless. The fact that the 158th Krieg broke and ran out of panic on Vraks, have "emotion limiters" in their masks, and they have a Litany of Sacrifice, is evidence enough that Kriegers have emotions. They are still Human, just heavily indoctrinated into a life of warfare from cradle to grave.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/24 20:57:48
Bobthehero wrote:The newer version of the Siege of Vraks males no mention of the 18th breaking and routing
The 158th. Not the 18th. The 158th was involved in the assault on Sector 50-45, at the Inner Defense Ring, during the big push by Lord Zuehkle on 822.M41. The regiment ended up disbanded, it's senior officers/staff executed, and survivors sent to penal legions. If I recall correctly, nothing had changed when they combined Imperial Armour Volumes Five, Six, and Seven.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Is it ever elaborated on what exactly vitae-womb technology is?
It's a method of "genetic reproduction" that involves the "mass production of Human organisms". Supposedly, the technology is little understood anywhere else besides Krieg. And it's considered dangerous and abhorrent by the Biologis.
Hey look what I found!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Heartwarming/Warhammer40000 http://brett-neufeld.deviantart.com/art/Thank-You-color-269764771 "The Imperial Guard relief force marched through the city gates with crowds of the native inhabitants looking on. But there was little cheering or celebrating.
The grim-looking army was not the angels of salvation that the people had thought they would be. Rather, they were silent, lifeless beings that spared the people not even a single glance as they marched by. The peoples faces grew nearly as dreary as the soldiers masks as they realized that their saviors were not like angels, but more like walking corpses.
But through the crowd of bleak and cheerless faces, a bright and sunny one appeared.
'Why is everyone so afraid of them,' she thought, 'when they're here to save us? We should be thankful.'
She leaned over the side and reached out to the nearest passing soldier, holding one of the summer flowers she had gathered.
'These are for someone else, but you can have one.' she said cheerfully.
The soldier hesitated for a moment, looking at the gift being presented to him, then he moved back into formation. He didn't take it, but she was sure that he wanted to.
Her grandmother frantically pulled her back and began scolding her. She didn't listen, she just put the flower back with the rest and stepped back, her smile unchanged."
For anyone familiar with the later books in the Dune series, you'll instantly pick up on my thinking here.
What if the 'vats' are biological incubation chambers (such as those the Tleilaxu use). ie: The reason you don't see any obvious women, is because the women are converted into brain-dead incubators churning out new recruits (or spice in the case of the DUNE universe).
Perhaps that's more grim-dark than even GW would go
Kriegspiel wrote: Hey look what I found!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Heartwarming/Warhammer40000 http://brett-neufeld.deviantart.com/art/Thank-You-color-269764771 "The Imperial Guard relief force marched through the city gates with crowds of the native inhabitants looking on. But there was little cheering or celebrating.
The grim-looking army was not the angels of salvation that the people had thought they would be. Rather, they were silent, lifeless beings that spared the people not even a single glance as they marched by. The peoples faces grew nearly as dreary as the soldiers masks as they realized that their saviors were not like angels, but more like walking corpses.
But through the crowd of bleak and cheerless faces, a bright and sunny one appeared.
'Why is everyone so afraid of them,' she thought, 'when they're here to save us? We should be thankful.'
She leaned over the side and reached out to the nearest passing soldier, holding one of the summer flowers she had gathered.
'These are for someone else, but you can have one.' she said cheerfully.
The soldier hesitated for a moment, looking at the gift being presented to him, then he moved back into formation. He didn't take it, but she was sure that he wanted to.
Her grandmother frantically pulled her back and began scolding her. She didn't listen, she just put the flower back with the rest and stepped back, her smile unchanged."
Thanks. this is pretty damn good. I think the human element is one of the thing that I miss the most in 40K fiction. There is to much emphasis on battle. plot and action and not enough on character. The fact that most 40K fiction is dominated by Space Marines who are inveitably less human and less diverse than the world they are fighting in doesn't help. Its nice to see an author trying to give a bit of humanity to those who are supposed to be devoid of. It makes the Krieg even more interesting.
Deadshot wrote: Longer sustained effort is irrelevant, your job is to die or kill the enemy. Its better to have men who can close the difference faster or hit harder than a woman who can run longer, because both of them have an estimated lifespan of 4 minutes. Men will also be able to carry more heavy equipment/ammo than women, and be able to carry it for longer as well.
Does it matter that men will be able to hit harder or carry more ammunition when their expected lifespan is 4 minutes ?
Deadshot wrote: Tunnel rats, again, a good point if DKOK used that tactic. Like I said, they through bodies until they or the enemy is dead.
They seem quite selective about the bodies they are wasting with such glee, according to you .
Now could we please just stick the “Are women efficient soldiers?” argument up our collective bottom, accept that 40k doesn't run on logic and definitely doesn't run on whatever we believe to be a definite fact but another poster believes to be utter bs, and instead just stick to discussing actual fluff?
Like, for instance, this:
oldravenman3025 wrote: This. It's a combination of the two. Vitae-Womb technology is seen as abhorrent by many in the Magos Biologis, but Krieg has special writ to use it from the Senatorum and Munitorium. However, natural birth by fertile women happens, and is expected in order to help keep up the supply of recruits, not to mention, domestic labor. Krieg also practices strict policies of eugenics and weeding out mutations among the population. With that being said, it is highly unlikely that there are very few, if any, females in the Death Korps. They are needed elsewhere in Krieg's never-ending mission of atonement for their shameful past.
[…]
That is fluff dependent. Some writers have the Kriegers being cold, but still personable. Others portray them as near-drone like automata.
However, I don't buy the notion of the men of Krieg being emotionless. The fact that the 158th Krieg broke and ran out of panic on Vraks, have "emotion limiters" in their masks, and they have a Litany of Sacrifice, is evidence enough that Kriegers have emotions. They are still Human, just heavily indoctrinated into a life of warfare from cradle to grave.
Great post, directly refers to actual, official fluff instead of personal “reasoning”.
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https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I like the never ending to and fro argument when really...
NO ONE CARES (lore wise)
Seriously, ALL Kriegers are trained from birth to have the burden of their ancestors and die in a meatgrinder
Plus Kriegers have a Code as their name, Not an Actual Name, due to the amount of casulties there are
And dont go on about how "Men are better at fighting than females yada yada yada", So explain to me how a Gender Difference=Combat Efficiency matters when you have Cardboard as Armour (plus the sweet looking trench coat and gas mask) and you're gonna die when ANYTHING looks at you funny, And your name is NEVER going to be remembered because another 19,999 men (and women) died in the exact same meat grinder assault just to capture 1 mile of trenchline
COMBAT EFFECTIVNESS DUE TO GENDER MEANS NOTHING IN 40K, SO STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT
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But really, Kriegers will have had that bred and beaten out of them, and as you say, if both are capable of being raped in such a manner by Slaanesh, Deldar or Genestealers, its irrelevant, especially as that fear is bred out of them. 
?
