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Hey all, I had a quick question about the FOC in 30k. I was looking at Battlescribe on it, and I didn't really see any army types I recognized as a 40k player. How does building an army list work for 30k? What is the FOC?

The main one that is equivalent to a CAD is the age of darkness foc. 1-3 HQ, 2-6 Troops, 0-4 Elites, 0-3 FA, 0-3 HS, 0-1 LoW. Do note that there is no unbound in 30K. Also LoWs may only be taken in games of 2000 points or more, and may not be more than 25% of your army.

There are plenty of other FOC's however. My normal Heresy army uses a Leviathan detachment with three Ordinatus engines at 3000 points, among other things.

There's also Onslaught, Castellan, and the various Rites of War as well.

Are they like formations in 40k, that I can use them for my army and they aren't specifically for one type of mission?

 HCMistborn wrote:
Are they like formations in 40k, that I can use them for my army and they aren't specifically for one type of mission?

They are a bit different. They are brand new FOCs, which often have significant advantages (Such as Onslaught bringing two LoWs) but also significant disadvantages (such as Onslaught never having first turn unless you seize).

They are available for every mission - if you include the mission-specific FOCs, the amount of army building options becomes truly staggering! The big ones mentioned are for any game, with the caveat that the game functions best with Age of Darkness. The other detachments you should let your opponent know your list ahead of time and be very clear what's up.

 HCMistborn wrote:
Are they like formations in 40k, that I can use them for my army and they aren't specifically for one type of mission?

The way you build the army is one of the main differences between 30k and 40k. There are no 'Formations' in 30k, and the way you use detachments is also more restrictive.

A regular army is built using the 'Age of Darkness' FOC, which is found in many of the books up to and including the current Red Books. It's a bit like a standard CAD (your Primary Detachment) with an optional Allied Detachment. That FOC is your entire army. Unlike in 40k, you can't take a second CAD, or a second Allied Detachment.

There are also optional FOCs, also detailed in most of the books, which anyone can take, like Onslaught or Leviathan.

And then some armies or specific campaigns have their own FOC.

In all cases, you pick your FOC and that is the entire army - you can't mix and match Detachments, FOCs, Formations like you can in a 40k army.

This seems so much better than 40k, for how I want to play at least. The only downside is the size of games is seemingly huge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the AoD transfer to 40k well? Like if I wanted to play Sons of Horus could I play them in 40k?

 HCMistborn wrote:
This seems so much better than 40k, for how I want to play at least. The only downside is the size of games is seemingly huge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the AoD transfer to 40k well? Like if I wanted to play Sons of Horus could I play them in 40k?

Technically: Yes. But it depends strongly on your local meta.

I play at a GW store, so I will have to ask around the next time I am up there.

It's not so much that, its more that 30k legion armies are suited for tearing apart most other marine based armies.

30k offers special and heavy weapons in stacks.



Also worth noting, certain characters allow you to take a rite of war.
Each chapter has 2-3 specific ones and there are tons of generic ones.

These can vastly change the layout of your army.



For example;
Orbital assault rite of war.

All units that can take a rhino may instead take a drop pod.
Dreadnoughts may take drop pods.

But the downside, all models must deepstrike one way or another.
Be it in a pod or in a flyer.


So they are somewhat drastic changes.
And while buffing your army, the do give down sides too.

It's funny that you think the games are huge. At 2500 points it would be like playing with 3000-3250 points of 40k. The units in 30k are much more expensive, especially if you're wanting to play with Lords of War (think primarchs here - 450+ points).

List construction in 30k is so much simpler than 40k. No worrying about how many 'sources' or 'detachments' you have. You have your FOC and that's all, just like others said above. A cool difference that will let you alter the FOC in 30k are Rites of War. You have a model with the 'master of the legion' special rule and they can take a rite of war to unlock different things that can alter the force organization of your army and give you bonuses, and also limitations.

Are you just feeling 30k out, or have you already planed on getting into it?

I would highly recommend it. It is buckets of fun.

EDIT: I jut got ninja'd by @jackal. Good stuff man

 HCMistborn wrote:
Are they like formations in 40k, that I can use them for my army and they aren't specifically for one type of mission?

FOCs in 30K are like the equivalent of using the CAD in 40K. "Rites of War" are the closest things to formations on 30K. And the number of Rites of War keep increasing and increasing. So there is power creep in 30K just like in 40K, just not as bad...so far...

 jasper76 wrote:

 HCMistborn wrote:
Are they like formations in 40k, that I can use them for my army and they aren't specifically for one type of mission?

FOCs in 30K are like the equivalent of using the CAD in 40K. "Rites of War" are the closest things to formations on 30K. And the number of Rites of War keep increasing and increasing. So there is power creep in 30K just like in 40K, just not as bad...so far...

Increasing and Increasing? Each legion got a new one for the first time in years, and some of them aren't all that great.

I recently got the new redbook, and it's packed with Rites of War (non-legion specific) that are new since HH Book 1 was released. That's on top of all the new legion-specific Rites of War.

Power has crept.

No, options have increased.
Power is as it always has been.

Most of the rites of war offer a gimmick at best.
Some are good, but all hinder you in a way.

There is nothing like the gladius in 30k.


All the rites are doing is changing army structure.
But unlike 40k, you always get a downside to it aswell.

Yes, I agree the power creep in Rites of War is nowhere near as bad as the power creep with 40K formations.

Ordo Reductor for example:
You get a special CAD, some boni, but you also can´t take fortifications and Allys, must take specific stuff, and you have less FA and Elite-slots.

 jasper76 wrote:
Power has crept.

I disagree. There are certainly more options, but rarely are Rites a total cross-army bonus. For example, the Fury of the Ancients ROW allows dreads as troops, but forces you to include a Primus Medicae and a Forge Lord (with the Master of the Legion Praetor/Delegatus, that's all your HQs gone) and gives up a VP for every single dreadnought your enemy destroys. Fluffy, fun, actually terrible for winning games!

I don't think the new Rites of War increase the general power level at all.

OK, well putting the issue of Rites of War to the side, can anyone seriously argue that the massive decrease in points costs with the new redbook is not power creep. I mean, sure, every legion army benefits, but 30k is more than just Space Marine legions. Did Questoris Knights or Solar Auxilia get a corresponding points decrease? Did Chaos Daemons, or Cults and Militias get a points decrease?

If they did not, then I think the non-Legion HH gamer has every right to say that power has crept into the legion army list by way of points reduction alone.

I have been trying to choose, I was thinking I might play a xenos races exclusively in 40k, and instead of have a second army of imperium for 40k, just do a 30k legion. No one really plays 30k in my area either, but I will be moving to a city that's big on nerd culture within the next two years.

I've never had a problem playing a 30k army against a 40k army, for what its worth. I guess it all depends on your opponents and how they feel about it.

One things for sure is you won't be getting a 30k army into to many, if any, non-Horus Heresy tournaments...and I've never even heard of a Horus Heresy tournament in my area (which isn't a very cosmopolitan locale)

 jasper76 wrote:
OK, well putting the issue of Rites of War to the side, can anyone seriously argue that the massive decrease in points costs with the new redbook is not power creep. I mean, sure, every legion army benefits, but 30k is more than just Space Marine legions. Did Questoris Knights or Solar Auxilia get a corresponding points decrease? Did Chaos Daemons, or Cults and Militias get a points decrease?

If they did not, then I think the non-Legion HH gamer has every right to say that power has crept into the legion army list by way of points reduction alone.

Most of the units that got points decreases were units that needed them (like Assault Squads) because for a while they've been less efficient than the other, similar units. Admittedly basic Tactical Squads probably didn't need a 25 point decrease.
Not to mention other units got points increases (like the Sicaran).

That said it still isn't perfect. Destroyer Squads didn't get any changes even though most people consider them as being too expensive, even if they are really cool and in some cases fluffy.

That's the other thing, I will have to learn what everything is. I'm excited though.

Not noticed any power creep over the years. RoWs as stated are awesome ways to theme your legion force to the company type you like. Note orbital assault limits you to units that have the deep strike rule, not necessarily forcing you to deep strike thus jump packers can start on the table. The do have some massive drawbacks and some of them outright suck from the get go.

Small games work as well. I have played 500 point games with our league rules and it worked fine although many toys were not present. I think I had a min sized tac heavy support squad with culverines, a bare Master of sig(back before they decided he couldn't be the required HQ) and a tac squad. It did ok. The tac squad was tough for people to take out it wasn't full 20 guys but filled what ever points I did have.

Unless you play against one of the FoCs that allow it, you wont see a super heavy or other LoW at less than 2k and even then it cant be more than 25% of the army.

Age of Darkness is the standard Force org. which as been noted, is different than 40ks. The alternate optional FoCs are special occasion FoCs and you really should talk with your opponent before using them. I would be pissed if I showed up for a normal game and my opponent pops an onslaught or leviathan foc on me without agreeing on it with me first.

I will point this out, at low point level 40k can generally keep pace with 30k (im talking 1.5k here) once you start to get in to the points that 30k is usually played at 2-3k 40k armies generally start to struggle against a force that is built for high strength low ap and heavy heavy heavy shooting. Ive noticed that its only the biffed codexs or those that can combine with good and plentiful physic powers can even hope to keep up.

jasper76 wrote:OK, well putting the issue of Rites of War to the side, can anyone seriously argue that the massive decrease in points costs with the new redbook is not power creep. I mean, sure, every legion army benefits, but 30k is more than just Space Marine legions. Did Questoris Knights or Solar Auxilia get a corresponding points decrease? Did Chaos Daemons, or Cults and Militias get a points decrease?

If they did not, then I think the non-Legion HH gamer has every right to say that power has crept into the legion army list by way of points reduction alone.

I beg to differ on this point. The Horus Heresy is very much all about Space Marine Legions. The other "armies" detailed so far just happened to be present on the planet that the Legions were fighting on. Sure, Guard and Mechanium were around during this period, but the focus has always been on the Legions, and I hope it stays that way. I was pretty disappointed when Forge World started to introduce the Knights and Solar Auxilia along with the Mechanim as fully fledged, viable armies in 30K. What's next? Orks? Eldar? Because hey, they were around. It feels like FW is diluting the Horus Heresy by including these non-Legion armies.

There were a lot of units that had their points increased as well. At best, over a 2500 point game, if you stayed away from the units that increased in points values, you could probably squeeze in an infantry unit or maybe a couple more Rhino's for your existing units. Questoris Knights, Solar Auxilia, Chaos Daemons, Cults, and Militias were all added after books 1-3, when 40K went from 6th edition to 7th edition, and books 4-6 came out very quickly after that in comparison to books 1-3. If you remember, there was an intermediary red books for the Legion Astartes that included the Legion rules in one book, and the Crusade rules in another book. They both had adjusted points values prior to the most current Legion Astartes book. The reason the above mentioned units didn't get a points adjustment? They came out after the first points adjustment had been made.

The only power creep in 30K is the perceived power creep from it's biased players.

Well then, who am I to argue, I must be one of those "biased players".

People may be defining "power creep" differently.

There's no question that some units and Legions improved, and that there are some new build options thanks to new RoW. However, other units received points hikes and little nerfs. And plenty of the new RoW are more fluffy than good.

Is it really "power creep" now that the previously underpowered Book 1 legions are now (in most players' opinions) on a better footing versus the previously stronger Book 2 and 3 legions? I guess it depends on your perspective and how you define it.

Personally I see these developments as an attempt at balance rather than a consistent movement up the power scale in an attempt to top the last release.

 gorgon wrote:

Is it really "power creep" now that the previously underpowered Book 1 legions are now (in most players' opinions) on a better footing versus the previously stronger Book 2 and 3 legions? I guess it depends on your perspective and how you define it.

Personally I see these developments as an attempt at balance rather than a consistent movement up the power scale in an attempt to top the last release.

I do see this as power creep. Not power explosion, mind you, but power creep.

Anyway, no need for me to beat a dead horse about it, so that's my last word on this particular tangent.

That is not power creep, that is just balancing fixes.

If 8th was released and nerfed Eldar but also buffed Orks and CSM, that would not be power creep.

Power creep is when things get more and more powerful. The recent 30k updates buffed weak things (assault marines) and nerfed strong things (sicaran).