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Sorry if this comes a bit ranty. So I have been a big proponent of AoS lately, but yesterday I had a game that really soured me on everything because of how insanely powerful shooting seems to be. I played a 1500 point game with my Flesh-Eater Courts; my opponent brought Sylvaneth. Our armies were:

Me (Flesh-Eater Courts)

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist
Varghulf Courtier
Crypt Haunter Courtier
Crypt Ghast Courtier

2x 20-man Crypt Ghouls
6x Crypt Haunters

Battalion: King's Ghouls

Him (Sylvaneth)

Drycha Hamadreth
Treelord Ancient
Branchwych
(Some other branch thing)

2x 3-man Kurnoth Hunters w/bows
20x Dryads
20x Spiteful Revenants (may have been 10 actually I'm not 100% sure)

We rolled the "Gifts from the Heavens" scenario. Long story short I got absolutely wrecked with a combination of him dropping forests to let one of his units grab the objective in my zone while he sat on the one in his, but what hurt the most was his shooting. Sniping out my characters, me having no real way to prevent it without blocking my own units from doing anything, moving his Hunters back to the very edge of his board so he could keep shooting, shooting at my units engaged in combat, shooting at my units that finally did get to him, etc. just basically being able to roll over me with barely any effort (this on top of all the Sylvaneth power themselves like staying in your own forest so I had a -1 to hit, and his guys had like a 3+ save, and all the mortal wounds they could dish out)

How are you supposed to handle the fact that there is essentially zero ways to limit shooting other than hiding behind large impassable terrain pieces that then prevent you from doing anything else? I should note that my opponent was not in any way, shape or form a jerk. He was friendly and a great guy, just being absolutely crushed with basically no point during the game where I felt I had any chance at all to win was pretty devastating.

Is there any good way of dealing with it short of giving in and trying to fight fire with fire?

You probably just felt the worst of what shooting is like. Kurnoth Hunters w/ bows are regarded as some of, if the not best ranged unit in the game points per pound.

I don't think I would have minded it so much if there was a way to stop it. I mean, shooting into a melee should carry a penalty, and you shouldn't be able to shoot if you yourself are in combat.

It's really just the Sylvaneth army. Between their drop a Wyldwood and teleport to it for objectives and insane shooting ability, they're not fun to play against.

I feel the same way. I play Ironjawz and I just have to weather the shooting. When I get close enough to charge, he just teleports to a different Wyldwood. It's so frustrating that I want to flip the table and walk away.

I have yet to play against Sylvaneth shooting, but my buddy just bought KHunters yesterday so we'll see.

Are you willing to expand to GAeath more broadly? A Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror using his spell to catapult a Mourngul 24" turn one is a great way to get in people's faces with a non-rendable party-pooping monster. Throw Mystic Shield on it as well and your opponent will have an aneurysm.

As an Ironjawz player, I just suck it up.

Try to use cover as much as possible, block line of sight to your characters, field your own shooty units, take units that can outflank. Every little thing helps.

Its hard to make out from what you say, but it sounded like you probably didn't have terrain. Make sure you have a good amount of terrain, this isn't warhammer of mass battles on an open field. Sitting right on your own edge and hitting stuff in the other half shouldn't be that easy.

Remember a good number of armies are really good at something, and dealing with that is often hard. Flesh eaters can be insanely resilient, replacing models and healing left right and center. There are those who ask how do you deal with that. Ogres/Orrucks can be insanely fast across the board and hard hitting in melee, how do 'I' deal with that. Others deal mortal wounds en mass etc etc. Its the nature of a game where you often have 2 focused armies very good at something that it can feel pretty tough dealing with the enemy.

Play to the Scenario. Most games are 4-6 turns with Victory points for objectives. Killing the Hunters isn't always going to be needed. You have the ability to mitigate losses due to model replacement, grab objectives and weather the storm, put something on his to stop him scoring etc.

Switch away from too focused an army, and move out a bit more into wider death. Bat swarms are a useful death unit for countering enemy shooting a bit (especially any that get special affects on hits of 6), and the Abhorrent king is a Death wizard so automatically knows the spell. They have a good enough radius for their ability to make it easy enough to use them. They effectively reduce the Hunters ability by 33%, which makes them nice, and whilst they will be quickly targeted that is a turn something is distracted by them rather than objectives.

Your army feels a bit slow to me, fast units to get within objective range can be very useful, especially in the sort of scenario you had where you are not sure where the objectives will be to start with.

We had terrain, we have a lot of GW buildings, but my issue with big buildings is you have to move around them while keeping 1" coherency (unless I'm missing something) so it makes it very hard to maneuver with big units of 20 guys.

I'm not super familiar with FEC, but it seems to me like you might be overreacting to his shooting (or his rolls were just abnormally good).

Kurnoth Hunters are very efficient and very hard to deal with. That said, their damage output is not *that* impressive. Even without considering the spell from the Ghoul King, they should only be putting out an average of 3-4 wounds per turn total. They can chip away at your King, but with the regeneration ability their progress will be very slow. Your courtiers are more vulnerable, but you should be able to protect them to some degree by hiding behind terrain. You won't necessarily be able to protect everything all game, but you can do enough to make sure that the Hunters don't cripple you unless they roll really well.

So basically, I'd suggest not getting too worked up about the hunters. Keep your characters out of LOS of them as much as possible, or at the very least position such that both units can't focus fire on the same character. If you can do that you will end up regenerating most of the damage they cause. Don't worry about going after them. Unless you have a great opportunity, just chasing them is a waste of time. Focus on the objectives and on catching and destroying the Sylvaneth units that you can actually get to grips with.

I think other commenters that mentioned your army is kinda slow are spot on. Sylvaneth is fast, and you are going to struggle against a fast army that has some shooting when you play a slow army with no shooting. If the scenario forces them to get to grips with you, then this disadvantage will be somewhat lessened... but if the reverse is true, then you are well and truly screwed.

If you're curious to how good they actually are:

http://www.louisvillewargaming.com/AOSStats.aspx

Go to the sylvaneth link.

These are stats based on pure math of the stats, and no abstract math is put in there at all. It shows you point for point that the sylvaneth is a highly efficient and highly damaging force and it wasn't just your imagination, though their shooting is not their prime strength.

kurnoth Hunters are massively OP, so there's that. You should really drop Kings Ghouls and run Ghoul Patrol. That will make life more difficult for any Sylvaneth player. Plus it's so good for the cost and has all your battleline so I'd say its among the most auto-take options in the game.

To deal with shooting I use the changeling and summoning to get a small force in his back line; plus screamers.

Tricks and speed are my strength. Playing to yours helps, but any army needs either a ranged reply or speed to deal with shooting

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
kurnoth Hunters are massively OP, so there's that. You should really drop Kings Ghouls and run Ghoul Patrol. That will make life more difficult for any Sylvaneth player. Plus it's so good for the cost and has all your battleline so I'd say its among the most auto-take options in the game.

Probably, but at 1500 points I didn't have the points for third unit of Ghouls unless I went with three units of 10 (which in retrospect might have worked). That will be my go-to at 2000 and I might experiment with three units of 10 ghouls. I guess I'm more miffed that I come from games where you can't just shoot at anything you like, without any LOS restrictions (barring buildings) or even if you're in combat, so it's a little jarring to like want to rush up to engage the enemy with a melee army, but the shooting units don't care and can still get a round into you, two if they are engaged. It feels, even if not true, like it's really bad for melee armies and makes me want to consider picking up a second army that has some shooting (I'm already thinking of a 2nd army anyways) so I can play that game too.

I am not super worried, I mean this was after all only like my 3rd AoS game; it also didn't help that my opponent had like 3 turns of winning initiative in a row. Just shooting seems like it's way over the top with nothing beyond just buildings everywhere (which then impedes the melee army) to handle it. Speed, but it seems like speed is not enough because just getting into combat with the shooty unit does nothing to stop them from continuing to shoot at you, so you not only need speed but you need to be able to alpha strike them to wipe them out, otherwise you're getting two rounds of attacks from them (shooting + combat) in their turn instead of only one.

Wayniac wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
kurnoth Hunters are massively OP, so there's that. You should really drop Kings Ghouls and run Ghoul Patrol. That will make life more difficult for any Sylvaneth player. Plus it's so good for the cost and has all your battleline so I'd say its among the most auto-take options in the game.

Probably, but at 1500 points I didn't have the points for third unit of Ghouls unless I went with three units of 10 (which in retrospect might have worked). That will be my go-to at 2000 and I might experiment with three units of 10 ghouls. I guess I'm more miffed that I come from games where you can't just shoot at anything you like, without any LOS restrictions (barring buildings) or even if you're in combat, so it's a little jarring to like want to rush up to engage the enemy with a melee army, but the shooting units don't care and can still get a round into you, two if they are engaged. It feels, even if not true, like it's really bad for melee armies and makes me want to consider picking up a second army that has some shooting (I'm already thinking of a 2nd army anyways) so I can play that game too.

I am not super worried, I mean this was after all only like my 3rd AoS game; it also didn't help that my opponent had like 3 turns of winning initiative in a row. Just shooting seems like it's way over the top with nothing beyond just buildings everywhere (which then impedes the melee army) to handle it. Speed, but it seems like speed is not enough because just getting into combat with the shooty unit does nothing to stop them from continuing to shoot at you, so you not only need speed but you need to be able to alpha strike them to wipe them out, otherwise you're getting two rounds of attacks from them (shooting + combat) in their turn instead of only one.

Im having the same problem with ranged with my khorne army, so I picked up the trees to have some shooting as well, if your opponent has 2 or more ranged units, and you lose initiative and they go back to back, I lose every time, so annoying.

I guess it will depend on your play style. If you army is a slow moving you will get killed by shooting.

Try using spells that help you teleport or summon units in this will give you the range needed to reach where you need without losing you whole unit.

Speaking of summoning: the ghoul king has a command ability that lets you bring on a unit from any table edge.

Leave points and bring on a unit near him to disrupt shooting. Dead models don't shoot and if your opponent shoots the new unit the rest of your army gets to move up while taking less shooting.

I will say that if your opponent is running a shooting heavy list and gets a double turn 2 or 3 you are just screwed. There's not much you can do about that. It's a big reason why we just alternate turns at my flgs.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I will say that if your opponent is running a shooting heavy list and gets a double turn 2 or 3 you are just screwed. There's not much you can do about that. It's a big reason why we just alternate turns at my flgs.

Yes, I realized that I actually like rolling for initiative each turn, but it seems like it can be too devastating and make for a one-sided game.

If you like rolling for initiative I recommend free-for-all games (3+ players). There is a scenario near the front of the GHB designed for such that involves an artifact in the center of the board. We use this scenario but swap out the reinforcement rules with those from the Escalation pitched battle scenario. It works really well. For straight two-sided battles you can try only rolling for initiative on turns 4 and 5, which eliminates the risk of early game decimation from double-turns.

yea, one thing I miss from 40k is tying up a ranged unit in melee, wish this game had that, only thing I dislike about it. even if I used a crappy unit to just die, at least it cuts out the shooting for a turn or 2.

My opponent uses 2 units of judicators, 2 wounds each it takes a while to get through them, all they while they are still sniping units away.

Makes me want to fight fire with fire when I look at another army. which isn't a good thing, but still something I am considering.

Currently a mix of vampire spells and a mourngul to throw it 20" towards said shooting unit in my first hero phase.
With that plus 12" movement, charge range etc it's always a 1st turn charge on anything really.

While I dislike charging units like kurnoth hunters, it has to be done at times.
The mourngul can usually chew through them and by turn 2 I'll have fell bats or blood knights around to help if needed.




But you did have a poor game if that's your only real AoS experience of shooting.
Kurnoth hunters really are a top tier unit and the bows just make them better.

Wait, people play without rolling for initiative? Huh. I hadn't honestly considered altering the core rules to such a degree. I haven't found it a problem in the games I've played or in the tournament I attended, in fact I really like the tension it adds, but I guess I haven't played against a super shooty army. Only change I would make is that whoever went first the previous turn should win any ties, to lower the chance of a double turn for their opponent.

It depends if your meta realizes the benefits of double-turn gambling. Its not very difficult to go second and bet on a double turn without much penalty if you don't get it and a massive payoff if you do.

 Mymearan wrote:
Wait, people play without rolling for initiative? Huh. I hadn't honestly considered altering the core rules to such a degree. I haven't found it a problem in the games I've played or in the tournament I attended, in fact I really like the tension it adds, but I guess I haven't played against a super shooty army. Only change I would make is that whoever went first the previous turn should win any ties, to lower the chance of a double turn for their opponent.

I think it only becomes an issue with a shooty army because that's two turns of shooting in a row that can decimate you. Imagine if you could get two turns in a row in 40k, and it's basically the same thing. A lot of times I see people forget about it and just go normal IGO-UGO like 40k, but I do like how it adds to the tactics. I just wish shooting wasn't so devastating and if there was a good way to actually stop it using a non-shooting army besides just hiding in a corner (which then gives your opponent reign to control the battlefield). It seems that the main issue as well is that not only does shooting tend to have long range but a lot of it is multiple damage, so a unit can easily get wiped out by a concentrated volley, which makes sense but makes for an unfun game especially when only a handful of armies have shooting and the Death and Chaos factions barely get any.

This is why I really wish the game had the mechanic of activating a unit, then your opponent activating a unit.

I really despise IGOUGO and the double turn of shooting makes games less than fun if your opponent is min/maxing and has an overbearing amount of ranged attacks.

I say that as a bloodbound player...

I don't understand your argument against terrain. Put a good amount of terrain down, that heavily mitigates against shooting. It has minimal affect on melee armies, I'm clearly missing your issue with 'move around them while keeping 1" coherency'. Yes it puts stuff in the way of simply charging across an empty field, but why is that an issue vs getting shot up by shooting heavy armies.

I also must be missing why 2 units of Kurnoths were a problem in a 5 turn game which was just about objectives. They do something like 8 damage average, flesheaters can regenerate more wound per turn than that. If he ran back to his edge then ignore them, keep your guys fighting for objectives.

Sylvaneth as whole are quite nasty, but I'm with those who say the shooting should not have been your problem.

auticus wrote:This is why I really wish the game had the mechanic of activating a unit, then your opponent activating a unit.

I really despise IGOUGO and the double turn of shooting makes games less than fun if your opponent is min/maxing and has an overbearing amount of ranged attacks.

I say that as a bloodbound player...

Battletech YES!

You know I wouldn't have minded if they did something like in X-wing where you move through your initiative. Would really make that stat important then. Since we don't have that stat in AoS it's a moot point here, but since someone mentioned 40K I thought it would be good for 40K.

That said and it's off topic now, sorry, Wayne said he is looking for a new army. How about instead of a new army when you are ready for it, how about adding to your existing army or do you want something totally different?

I am a big fan of battletech yes.

Davor wrote:

auticus wrote:This is why I really wish the game had the mechanic of activating a unit, then your opponent activating a unit.

I really despise IGOUGO and the double turn of shooting makes games less than fun if your opponent is min/maxing and has an overbearing amount of ranged attacks.

I say that as a bloodbound player...

Battletech YES!

You know I wouldn't have minded if they did something like in X-wing where you move through your initiative. Would really make that stat important then. Since we don't have that stat in AoS it's a moot point here, but since someone mentioned 40K I thought it would be good for 40K.

That said and it's off topic now, sorry, Wayne said he is looking for a new army. How about instead of a new army when you are ready for it, how about adding to your existing army or do you want something totally different?

Because Eldar aren't yet dominant enough in 40k.