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I wanted to make a thread to discuss the history of the Eldar instead of taking the Tau or Necron threads off topic.

First of all, if Eldar souls reincarnated, and the Eldar eventually started to use infinity circuits, spirit stones and the like once they realized some souls were no longer reincarnating, does that mean there are potentially Eldar alive today who remember fighting in the War in Heaven? Also, is there any biological or genetic difference between Eldar zygotes that would have housed reincarnated souls and ones that would generate new souls? Is there some biotechnology that could be derived from pre-Fall Eldar for the express purpose of pulling in and concentration spiritual entities? Could humanity create such a technology to rebirth the souls of saints and psykers...or even create another Emperor?

Would Harlequins have been the avatars or daemon hosts of the Eldar gods when those gods yet lived?

Things like spirit stones started being used after the Fall so there probably isn't anyone outside the Necrons with actual memories of the War in Heaven.

To sum it all in a nutshell.

Before the Fall eldar souls dissipated into the warp safely, and after some time those souls would find a way to *return* into the realspace as descendants of their very own kind (like a pseudo reincarnation) eldar were pretty much unstopable, mostly due being one of the most gifted psychic races and was able to pretty much act unhindered by the Chaos Gods.

After the fall Slaanesh (aka She who thirst, or She that must not be named) lives in the warp and Eldar souls are devored by it so they had to resort to different solutions.

-Craftworlders use spirit stones and infinitry circuits
-Dark eldar use some kind of regeneration process, storing small pieces of their souls in safe zones
-Exodites either uses spirtis stones or are linked specifically to the world spirit.
-Harlequins pull some secret tricks under Cegorach and no one is knows how they do it.

There could be potential eldar alive that can remember the War in Heave but according to lore, the 2 oldest Eldar beings alive shown (aside Phoenix Lords wich i'm not really sure if they fought into the war in heaven) are pretty much Vect and Eldrad.

About Harlequins being Avatars or Daemon host of the Eldar gods (Of Cegorach to be more precisse) it's one of the multiple answers for their *lack* of souls protection but we can't know for sure since GW never delved to fully into the Eldar fluff to explain it.

P.S: despite all this time and all the novels, one of the most constant fluff aspects for the Eldar it's the secrets about their Gods true nature and all the secrecy around their actions.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I wanted to make a thread to discuss the history of the Eldar instead of taking the Tau or Necron threads off topic.

First of all, if Eldar souls reincarnated, and the Eldar eventually started to use infinity circuits, spirit stones and the like once they realized some souls were no longer reincarnating, does that mean there are potentially Eldar alive today who remember fighting in the War in Heaven? Also, is there any biological or genetic difference between Eldar zygotes that would have housed reincarnated souls and ones that would generate new souls? Is there some biotechnology that could be derived from pre-Fall Eldar for the express purpose of pulling in and concentration spiritual entities? Could humanity create such a technology to rebirth the souls of saints and psykers...or even create another Emperor?

Would Harlequins have been the avatars or daemon hosts of the Eldar gods when those gods yet lived?

Spirit Stones are post fall as they come striaght out of the Eye of Terror, from the Crone Worlds (former Eldar Imperial worlds that have been affected by the Warp since), I've read that it was Craftworld Iyanden that discovered them and their use. Path of the Outcast also has a very vivid description of them being formed from the captured souls of Eldar that Slaanesh was forcing to live out their final day repeatedly (also suggesting that Slaanesh doesn't just devour Eldar souls but has a fancy for torturing them as well).

Reincarnation doesn't automatically mean that they remember their past lives though, but given that it's been millions of years since the War in Heaven, I find it highly unlikely. I think your reading far too much into Eldar souls and soul tech, which is far more akin to magic than anything, so trying to apply real world knowledge of genetics to it is going to be a hiding to nothing. As for pulling in and concentrating spirtual energies, I'm pretty sure thats a standard bit of tech for the Haemonculi Covens.

It used to be that the oldest Eldar alive was Vect, his life extended by the dark technomancy of the Dark Eldar, and he was just a child during the Fall.

Then, they sandwiched Eldrad into the Fulgrim Horus Heresy novels, presumably because they needed a powerful Eldar character, didn't want to come up with a new one, and disregarded everything that had been said about Eldar lifespans and the leadership of Ulthwe before that.

There's also been a bit of a change in the date of the Fall. It used to be an ancient event that happened before mankind reached the stars, but now it's immediately prior to the great crusade.

That makes a lot more sense to me timeline-wise, but still doesn't justify Eldrad being around.

However, given that the craftworld eldar started using soulstones after the fall (not sure of the date), it would probably mean that there are souls in the infinity circuits of craftworlds (and the world spirits of exodites) that remember the fall. However, their memory would likely be very clouded and fractured.

Also, i've got a rather grimdark possible explanation based on the eldar's lack of reincarnation.

If they had evolved (or were created) to account for reincarnation in whatever form it is as part of their life cycle, it explains why they have a birthrate problem. Either they would have greater difficulty conceiving, or if you want to go properly grimdark would still conceive but would have a high proportion of stillbirths, which adds greater depth to how tragic the eldar experience is.

It would also make sense how they haven't been able to recover post-Fall. The eldar are a race created for warfare, so you would expect a high attrition rate. Plus, they were able to carve out an empire at one of the most hostile times in the galaxy bar the 41st millenium: the War in Heaven against the Necrons, and directly afterwards against unchecked Ork populations and other hostile Xenos we only know by name (Hresh-Selain and Autochtinii are two).

Thar would have been exceedingly difficult with their current birthrate issues, but would explain how they haven't been able to replenish their losses from the Fall to a greater degree.

It's theoretically possible for someone to remember the War in Heaven, I'd say. Reincarnation was something you could do over and over again, and even disregarding that, the lifespans of the Pre-fall Eldar could easily be measured in tens of thousands of years due to their mastery of genetic engineering. Someone who had just started their latest re-incarnation by the time the Fall came around could still have tens of thousands of years to go before they popped it of natural causes.

There was a group of Eldar in the Eldar Empire known as the 'Immortal Intellects', who were constantly reincarnating themselves and extending their lives with the ultimate goal of being there at the end of the universe, which gives you an idea of how abusable that ability was.

As far as oldest Eldar currently around go, Asurmen has a fair shot. He had been around for a long time before the Fall, albeit not exactly in his current guise, and he's also cheating a bit with the whole 'Phoenix Lord' thing.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
It used to be that the oldest Eldar alive was Vect, his life extended by the dark technomancy of the Dark Eldar, and he was just a child during the Fall.

Then, they sandwiched Eldrad into the Fulgrim Horus Heresy novels, presumably because they needed a powerful Eldar character, didn't want to come up with a new one, and disregarded everything that had been said about Eldar lifespans and the leadership of Ulthwe before that.

There's also been a bit of a change in the date of the Fall. It used to be an ancient event that happened before mankind reached the stars, but now it's immediately prior to the great crusade.

That makes a lot more sense to me timeline-wise, but still doesn't justify Eldrad being around.

However, given that the craftworld eldar started using soulstones after the fall (not sure of the date), it would probably mean that there are souls in the infinity circuits of craftworlds (and the world spirits of exodites) that remember the fall. However, their memory would likely be very clouded and fractured.

Also, i've got a rather grimdark possible explanation based on the eldar's lack of reincarnation.

If they had evolved (or were created) to account for reincarnation in whatever form it is as part of their life cycle, it explains why they have a birthrate problem. Either they would have greater difficulty conceiving, or if you want to go properly grimdark would still conceive but would have a high proportion of stillbirths, which adds greater depth to how tragic the eldar experience is.

It would also make sense how they haven't been able to recover post-Fall. The eldar are a race created for warfare, so you would expect a high attrition rate. Plus, they were able to carve out an empire at one of the most hostile times in the galaxy bar the 41st millenium: the War in Heaven against the Necrons, and directly afterwards against unchecked Ork populations and other hostile Xenos we only know by name (Hresh-Selain and Autochtinii are two).

Thar would have been exceedingly difficult with their current birthrate issues, but would explain how they haven't been able to replenish their losses from the Fall to a greater degree.

There are others that were alive during the Fall and before. One is the Ulthwe artist and dancer (and former Howling Banshee) Kle'eyr, who ended up joining a Harlequin troupe. So was the Phoenix Lord Jain Zar. And Erandel Voidsinger is said to be "impossibly ancient", to the point where her body is starting to crystallize.

Phoenix Lords I'm not certain qualify as being alive anymore. They're basically gestalt constellations of spirits encased in ritual armour. No doubt they remember the Fall, but whether they count as 'alive' is up for debate.

Where are the other two from?

The dome of crystal seers in each craftworld is a place where old Farseers travel to when they reach the end of their lives. There, their bodies take root and form crystal statues as their spirits mingle into the infinity circuit. Crystalisation seems to be a common thing that occurs when individuals are stuck on the path of the seer for a long time.

Given that there's a specific structure on each craftworld for crystalised seers, and that there are multiple seers there in crystal form, it doesn't seem to be a rare occurrence for a seer to age to that point.

Is the 'impossibly ancient' Erandel Voidsinger given an actual age? Impossibly ancient could just be 1500 years old as opposed to 1000 (the previously stated natural lifespan for an Eldar). That's be the equivalent of a human being 170 years old, which would certainly quality as 'impossibly ancient'.

However, it would still put them some 8500 years away from the Fall.

Personally, I'd be inclined to dismiss any living Eldar purported to have been alive during the Fall as a writer that isn't familiar with Eldar background, aside from people like Vect who have extended their lifespan far beyond what is normal via unnatural means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it would appear I'll have to take that back about Eldrad.

Just read a bit in the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex that states 'He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife that would engulf us'.

Does anyone know what date the Horus Heresy was back in 3rd ed.?

It was still approx 10k years before the "present" time in 3rd ed.

Drat

As far i recall the Fall and the Birt of Slaanesh always happened a bit before the Great crusade (never had a time frame for it) but the lore always said that with Slaanesh birth the warp become stabilized enough to allow the Emperor to warp travel and launch the Great Crusade.

Now if that even happened a hundred years before or a thousand years it's never properly pointed.

P.S: in the 2ed Codex there is no comment about Eldrad being alive before the fall, just that he's the most powerful seer in ulthwe and very old reaching the end of his life.

Thanks for the clarification

Right, so the last time GW were internally consistent with Eldar lifespans was 2nd ed.?

Ah well, I'm going to headcanon it that it was a previous head Farseer of Ulthwe that warned the Emperor/Fulgrim. Makes much more sense

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Thanks for the clarification

Right, so the last time GW were internally consistent with Eldar lifespans was 2nd ed.?

Ah well, I'm going to headcanon it that it was a previous head Farseer of Ulthwe that warned the Emperor/Fulgrim. Makes much more sense

Well Eldrad Ulthran it's a title, 2nd ed says it's translates to Eldrad the *Main Seer* or the *Chief Farseer* of Ulthwe (lousy translation to english from my spanish codex)

it's a love-hate relationship how despite all this years Eldar lore seems to be still shrouded with mistery and there is always something that makes you doubt about believing what it's said as true fact, but even if it's a bit of headcannon, it can be easily explained as Eldrad being not a single Farseer but severals donning the role and posing as the same being, due the way Eldar handle Tradition and the nature of Exarchs/Spirit stones it wouldn't be to far fetched that's being the case making him a kind of Exarch Farseer.

P.S: in 2nd Ed Eldar lifespan was measured as a race that can live easily for a millenium, so 1000-2000 years may fit the normal lifespan (without outside interference)

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Thanks for the clarification

Right, so the last time GW were internally consistent with Eldar lifespans was 2nd ed.?

Ah well, I'm going to headcanon it that it was a previous head Farseer of Ulthwe that warned the Emperor/Fulgrim. Makes much more sense

Well Eldrad Ulthran it's a title, 2nd ed says it's translates to Eldrad the *Main Seer* or the *Chief Farseer* of Ulthwe (lousy translation to english from my spanish codex)

it's a love-hate relationship how despite all this years Eldar lore seems to be still shrouded with mistery and there is always something that makes you doubt about believing what it's said as true fact, but even if it's a bit of headcannon, it can be easily explained as Eldrad being not a single Farseer but severals donning the role and posing as the same being, due the way Eldar handle Tradition and the nature of Exarchs/Spirit stones it wouldn't be to far fetched that's being the case making him a kind of Exarch Farseer.

P.S: in 2nd Ed Eldar lifespan was measured as a race that can live easily for a millenium, so 1000-2000 years may fit the normal lifespan (without outside interference)

If you really want to branch out into your own headcannon, you could think of Eldrad as the Phoenix Lord of the farseers. His armor is just an empty shell, but contains the lives/souls/memories of all who have worn it. So you have the same “person” who’s been active all this time.

(As a reminder, there is no basis for this in any fluff I’m aware of. Just an idea to explain longevity of an individual notable Eldar)

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Thanks for the clarification

Right, so the last time GW were internally consistent with Eldar lifespans was 2nd ed.?

Ah well, I'm going to headcanon it that it was a previous head Farseer of Ulthwe that warned the Emperor/Fulgrim. Makes much more sense

Well Eldrad Ulthran it's a title, 2nd ed says it's translates to Eldrad the *Main Seer* or the *Chief Farseer* of Ulthwe (lousy translation to english from my spanish codex)

it's a love-hate relationship how despite all this years Eldar lore seems to be still shrouded with mistery and there is always something that makes you doubt about believing what it's said as true fact, but even if it's a bit of headcannon, it can be easily explained as Eldrad being not a single Farseer but severals donning the role and posing as the same being, due the way Eldar handle Tradition and the nature of Exarchs/Spirit stones it wouldn't be to far fetched that's being the case making him a kind of Exarch Farseer.

P.S: in 2nd Ed Eldar lifespan was measured as a race that can live easily for a millenium, so 1000-2000 years may fit the normal lifespan (without outside interference)

That's a fantastic connection I really like that. That the Eldrad we know at each stage isn't actually the same Eldrad in each instance. It's just a title, an honorific, awarded to the most powerful Farseer of Ulthwe at the time.

 Nevelon wrote:

If you really want to branch out into your own headcannon, you could think of Eldrad as the Phoenix Lord of the farseers. His armor is just an empty shell, but contains the lives/souls/memories of all who have worn it. So you have the same “person” who’s been active all this time.

(As a reminder, there is no basis for this in any fluff I’m aware of. Just an idea to explain longevity of an individual notable Eldar)

Yeah that's a great way of looking at it too, and fits with a lot of the Eldar fluff

Thanks guys!

Lord Perversor wrote:
To sum it all in a nutshell.

Before the Fall eldar souls dissipated into the warp safely, and after some time those souls would find a way to *return* into the realspace as descendants of their very own kind (like a pseudo reincarnation) eldar were pretty much unstopable, mostly due being one of the most gifted psychic races and was able to pretty much act unhindered by the Chaos Gods.

Pseudo-reincarnation? The fluff makes it clear their reincarnation was real, with memories and everything just like the shamans who became the Emperor. How would they even know their souls weren't reincarnating otherwise? Some kind of Minbari Triluminary mysticism applied to an ambiguous technology? I'm pretty sure the Eldar were immortal because their minds lived on after death to be reborn.

After the fall Slaanesh (aka She who thirst, or She that must not be named) lives in the warp and Eldar souls are devored by it so they had to resort to different solutions.

-Craftworlders use spirit stones and infinitry circuits
-Dark eldar use some kind of regeneration process, storing small pieces of their souls in safe zones
-Exodites either uses spirtis stones or are linked specifically to the world spirit.
-Harlequins pull some secret tricks under Cegorach and no one is knows how they do it.

There could be potential eldar alive that can remember the War in Heave but according to lore, the 2 oldest Eldar beings alive shown (aside Phoenix Lords wich i'm not really sure if they fought into the war in heaven) are pretty much Vect and Eldrad.

About Harlequins being Avatars or Daemon host of the Eldar gods (Of Cegorach to be more precisse) it's one of the multiple answers for their *lack* of souls protection but we can't know for sure since GW never delved to fully into the Eldar fluff to explain it.

P.S: despite all this time and all the novels, one of the most constant fluff aspects for the Eldar it's the secrets about their Gods true nature and all the secrecy around their actions.

Yeah, the fluff often has hints at consistency, but I've always felt that the lack of old Eldar minds (even in the Infinity Circuits) was analogous to the same lack of perspective that confidently states 1,000,000 space marines is a reasonable bulwark for a galactic scale conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
It used to be that the oldest Eldar alive was Vect, his life extended by the dark technomancy of the Dark Eldar, and he was just a child during the Fall.

Then, they sandwiched Eldrad into the Fulgrim Horus Heresy novels, presumably because they needed a powerful Eldar character, didn't want to come up with a new one, and disregarded everything that had been said about Eldar lifespans and the leadership of Ulthwe before that.

There's also been a bit of a change in the date of the Fall. It used to be an ancient event that happened before mankind reached the stars, but now it's immediately prior to the great crusade.

That makes a lot more sense to me timeline-wise, but still doesn't justify Eldrad being around.

However, given that the craftworld eldar started using soulstones after the fall (not sure of the date), it would probably mean that there are souls in the infinity circuits of craftworlds (and the world spirits of exodites) that remember the fall. However, their memory would likely be very clouded and fractured.

Also, i've got a rather grimdark possible explanation based on the eldar's lack of reincarnation.

If they had evolved (or were created) to account for reincarnation in whatever form it is as part of their life cycle, it explains why they have a birthrate problem. Either they would have greater difficulty conceiving, or if you want to go properly grimdark would still conceive but would have a high proportion of stillbirths, which adds greater depth to how tragic the eldar experience is.

It would also make sense how they haven't been able to recover post-Fall. The eldar are a race created for warfare, so you would expect a high attrition rate. Plus, they were able to carve out an empire at one of the most hostile times in the galaxy bar the 41st millenium: the War in Heaven against the Necrons, and directly afterwards against unchecked Ork populations and other hostile Xenos we only know by name (Hresh-Selain and Autochtinii are two).

Thar would have been exceedingly difficult with their current birthrate issues, but would explain how they haven't been able to replenish their losses from the Fall to a greater degree.

I remember someone speculating that Eldar bodies might be more like wraith constructs than purely biological animals, with their brains acting more as an Infinity Circuit for one soul rather than acting like a human brain. Is there any evidence in the fluff of head injuries altering an Eldar's personality? Anyway, with this theory, there would need to be a sould ready to inhabit each new Eldar body. Reincarnation could work. In my mind, Eldar gods could and would have generated new Eldar souls as needed, such as during the war in heaven. It is possible that pre-fall living Eldar generated enough new Eldar soul material on their own to fill out what reincarnation could not. With the death of their gods and Slaanesh sieving off their soul-waaaugh, they might not be able to produce new Eldar souls at any rate other than very slowly. Now, whether this means Eldar seldom conceive or have tons of stillborn, I prefer not to speculate.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
...once they realized some souls were no longer reincarnating...

I'm confused. These are Eldar we're talking about, not Iosans or Minbari?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Yeah, the fluff often has hints at consistency, but I've always felt that the lack of old Eldar minds (even in the Infinity Circuits) was analogous to the same lack of perspective that confidently states 1,000,000 space marines is a reasonable bulwark for a galactic scale conflict.

Yeah I've always thought that Space Marines were either propaganda poster-boys with a negligible effect on galactic conflicts, or the numbers are way way off.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I remember someone speculating that Eldar bodies might be more like wraith constructs than purely biological animals, with their brains acting more as an Infinity Circuit for one soul rather than acting like a human brain. Is there any evidence in the fluff of head injuries altering an Eldar's personality? Anyway, with this theory, there would need to be a sould ready to inhabit each new Eldar body. Reincarnation could work. In my mind, Eldar gods could and would have generated new Eldar souls as needed, such as during the war in heaven. It is possible that pre-fall living Eldar generated enough new Eldar soul material on their own to fill out what reincarnation could not. With the death of their gods and Slaanesh sieving off their soul-waaaugh, they might not be able to produce new Eldar souls at any rate other than very slowly. Now, whether this means Eldar seldom conceive or have tons of stillborn, I prefer not to speculate.

Now that is really interesting, and really plays up the 'engineered warrior race' thing that the eldar have going on. If the above is the case, then they're basically completely unnatural warrior constructs. I really like that idea anything that makes aliens seem more alien in 40k is very welcome it also meshes quite well with bits from Xenology about how a number of Eldar organs are crystalline in nature.

The second part makes a lot of sense too, although I think the 'seldom conceive vs stillborn' thing is just a matter of how grimdark you really want to go...

Xenology is really, really, really bad.

I seriously doubt that their "decline" has anything to do with biology. Not only because it goes against their character (why aren't they establishing remote colonies and focusing on population growth?), but because their technology is so advanced that these things should be absolutely no issue to them.

The Eldar likely have technological means to reproduce. The Dark Eldar have crazy advanced bioscience beyond just about anyone else (even Fabius Bile, who is the go-to character for any sort of biological messing around), so it stands to reason that the Craftworld Eldar would have something similar (though not the same, as their technology does differ in key aspects). Growing organisms is really not that difficult - in the unlikely event they were unable to fix whatever was wrong, they could certainly mass-produce embryos artificially to surmount the problem. But I really think that they'd be able to resolve any genetic defect they'd have with their extremely high level of technology. Which is also ignoring how the general theme of Eldar physiology is how perfect it is, how perfect and flawless and fine-tuned by the Old Ones they are.

However, the biggest thing that points away from biology is the very nature of what Craftworld Eldar are, which I'll put into points instead of a rambling mess:

The Eldar are "in decline".

This "decline" occurred after the Fall.

All Eldar need some sort of protection from Slaanesh.

Craftworld Eldar use spirit stones to protect themselves from Slaanesh. Every Craftworld Eldar has a spirit stone.

Spirit stones are really difficult and dangerous to get.

Ergo, the limiting factor for Eldar population growth is simply how many spirit stones they have.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Xenology is really, really, really bad.

I seriously doubt that their "decline" has anything to do with biology. Not only because it goes against their character (why aren't they establishing remote colonies and focusing on population growth?), but because their technology is so advanced that these things should be absolutely no issue to them.

The Eldar likely have technological means to reproduce. The Dark Eldar have crazy advanced bioscience beyond just about anyone else (even Fabius Bile, who is the go-to character for any sort of biological messing around), so it stands to reason that the Craftworld Eldar would have something similar (though not the same, as their technology does differ in key aspects). Growing organisms is really not that difficult - in the unlikely event they were unable to fix whatever was wrong, they could certainly mass-produce embryos artificially to surmount the problem. But I really think that they'd be able to resolve any genetic defect they'd have with their extremely high level of technology. Which is also ignoring how the general theme of Eldar physiology is how perfect it is, how perfect and flawless and fine-tuned by the Old Ones they are.

However, the biggest thing that points away from biology is the very nature of what Craftworld Eldar are, which I'll put into points instead of a rambling mess:

The Eldar are "in decline".

This "decline" occurred after the Fall.

All Eldar need some sort of protection from Slaanesh.

Craftworld Eldar use spirit stones to protect themselves from Slaanesh. Every Craftworld Eldar has a spirit stone.

Spirit stones are really difficult and dangerous to get.

Ergo, the limiting factor for Eldar population growth is simply how many spirit stones they have.

Interesting points.

In which way is Xenology bad? It makes some ropey suggestions in places, but it's an in-universe perspective so there's always the possibility that those suggestions are flat-out incorrect.

There is (old) fluff about Craftworlds founding colonies on Maiden Worlds. It hasn't been mentioned for a long time, but it hasn't been specifically retconned either so there's definitely a possibility that it's still the case.

I think it's important to point out the assumption that a technologically advanced society is able to solve all of its problems without difficulty. It's a common fallacy that super-advanced societies don't encounter insurmountable problems. As a real-world example, we're able to put people into space, create nuclear reactors to provide our power sources, build computers that can calculate fantastically complicated functions. However, after decades and decades of dedicated research people are still dying of cancer.

To cave men, we'd appear to have god-like technology. However, there are still things that we cannot solve. There's no reason to assume that the same isn't true of the eldar.

Saying that, it's entirely plausible that the supply of Spirit Stones is the limiting factor on eldar population growth. Occam's Razor would suggest that that explanation is the most likely to be true given the current information that we have.

However, there is evidence that eldar can survive without spirit stones (albeit at greater risk, and likely with a shorter lifespan). Some eldar corsairs come from craftworlds, and would likely possess spirit stones. Some come from Commorragh, and likely survive on their soul-leaching. However, it's stated that some are born into the corsair culture (and also that some corsairs lack soulstones/soul leaching). Eventually, this process leads to Malevolents, but there's evidently scope for at least a semi-stable population of eldar surviving unprotected.

That doesn't mean the craftworlders would necessarily be willing to bring their children into the world unprotected, but it does demonstrate that it's possible.

Soulstone availability is still the most likely explanation, but it's not the only possible one

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Just read a bit in the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex that states 'He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife that would engulf us'.

Ha! thank you.
When you said in some other thread that Eldrad being alive during HH was a BL retcon, I said to myself 'but he was always that old...' But I couldn't be arsed to find my old eldar books and assumed that I must be have misremembered. But apparently not.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Just read a bit in the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex that states 'He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife that would engulf us'.

Ha! thank you.
When you said in some other thread that Eldrad being alive during HH was a BL retcon, I said to myself 'but he was always that old...' But I couldn't be arsed to find my old eldar books and assumed that I must be have misremembered. But apparently not.

Yeah it's rather put a dent in my irritation about the whole thing

I suppose I can appease myself by saying that the Ranger they were interrogating was bending the truth to intimidate his captors, but I can no longer say it was a retcon sandwiched in.

Best I can do is a 'misinterpretation of the context of the fluff'.

Drat

Is it stated anywhere when the Exodites started using the world spirit as they might have very old souls within them?

However, there is evidence that eldar can survive without spirit stones (albeit at greater risk, and likely with a shorter lifespan). Some eldar corsairs come from craftworlds, and would likely possess spirit stones. Some come from Commorragh, and likely survive on their soul-leaching. However, it's stated that some are born into the corsair culture (and also that some corsairs lack soulstones/soul leaching). Eventually, this process leads to Malevolents, but there's evidently scope for at least a semi-stable population of eldar surviving unprotected

Indeed - the Path novels have a very cool former Dark Elf corsair captain and she does not have a spirit stone or drain souls. We also know that Eldar can move between the kindreds - usually via the Corsairs. However no mention is made of how or indeed if they have any protection.

Maybe they are happy to risk death of their souls for freedom.

Although again does Slaanesh destroy souls or just devour/imprison them - I tend to think the latter.

I'm not certain on the exodite/world spirit front. I could swear there was a comment in a codex somewhere giving a date for when the Exodus began. The closest I can get is that in M29, many Eldar worlds start building craftworlds to flee the Fall. At that point, the exodites had already left.

Not certain whether the World Spirits would have been constructed by then. I suppose it depends on whether a World spirit-type thing is common to all Eldar worlds (possibly it's a form of pre-Fall energy grid thing, which was later repurposed to store souls). Either way, I think it'd only really be post-Fall that they started interring their dead into it. Before that there'd be no need as they could happily reincarnate.

I agree with you on the devour/imprison front (although that's probably close enough to destruction as to make little difference). That's all the more terrifying for the eldar given that their souls retain consciousness after death. They're trapped forever, tortured in the belly of a gargantuan warp predator, and conscious the whole time...

Indeed - however it could also be that the World Spirits were already part of their culture / link with the worlds?

Could definitely be that too. I must read the Asurmen book actually. Part of that is set pre-Fall and would give us information as to whether World Spirits are already a thing on the Eldar homeworlds.

There is a sort of proto-world spirit, a crystal tree that contains the souls of dead Eldar. Some Eldar just like being a part of a spiritual matrix, apparently.

Yeah, it's basically used as a form of entertainment.

Neat always interesting when you find out how much of technology in 40k is repurposed civilian tech