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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/18/cancer-girl-14-is-cryogenically-frozen-after-telling-judge-she-w/



More information in the article

Well this is... interesting... to say the least. Thoughts on the case and Cryogenics in general?

G.A

I think that modern cryogenics are almost certainly insufficient to preserve the brain such that it could be revived to cognition, and the best you could hope for would be that an artificial copy of you could be created by using some kind of quantum-level brainscan to provide an exact "blueprint" of your physical substrate. As a business in the modern day, it should be thoroughly regulated particularly in regards to ensuring potential freeze'ees grasp how much of a long shot it truly is, but if people want to waste their money there's no reason to prevent the practice.

As an adult and a cynic, I wouldn't think anyone in the distant future would particularly want to revive a bunch of neurotic, selfish, unevolved arseholes from the 21st century and I'd rather spend the money trying to figure out a way to keep myself going while I'm still alive and conscious, but the appeal is pretty obvious to a wee girl dying of cancer who should have her whole life ahead of her, and her dad is a colossal bellend for trying to prevent her wishes being followed.

I don't believe in cryogenics but it is sad to die at 14 and if it offers a tiny hope of revival it's absolutely right that she should be allowed that hope.

The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

In the grim darkness of the far future, these people might become a valueable resource for archeologists.
I don't think it is possible to say whether they might be revived one day. The future is unknowable, and we can't know what kind of technology might be or might not be developed one day.
But if it gave the girl some comfort, then it was a good thing. Poor girl.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

Unless he knows the current state of Cryogenics tech, and is being asked to help pay for it.

With Trump's finger on the red button, there might not be a planet to wake up to...

Personally I think it is a waste of time and money at the moment.

I suppose the comfort is nice, but if she does wake up it will be in the far future with no family alive and in a different world altogether.

I dunno... the real issue is, when do they actually freeze you? If youre already dead, its too late. Youre just a piece of meat. But if youre still alive, if barely... wouldnt that count as murder? Or at least assisted suicide?

 Tyr13 wrote:
I dunno... the real issue is, when do they actually freeze you? If youre already dead, its too late. Youre just a piece of meat. But if youre still alive, if barely... wouldnt that count as murder? Or at least assisted suicide?

This was done at the point of death - I think the idea is that revival would be possible if the cancerous tissue can be eliminated, as the rest of the body would theoretically still be able to function if it was jump-started with an impulse delivered to the atrial nodes in the heart.

If they count as dead while frozen doesn't that also raise the same issues about continued consciousness that teleportation does? Not to the same level, but you'd be gone either way if they could find a way to get their body working again.

As it is I kind of see current cryogenics as a bit selfish; the freezing process isn't advanced enough to stop you from just becoming a big chunk of frozen meat so the resources spent preserving this meat are wasted currently. Hope is still good to have though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

Yeah, that makes sense.

This is just sad. The cryogenics scammers who prey on the terrified and vulnerable should be ashamed of themselves, and probably spending time in prison for fraud. And that poor girl, clinging to the false hope of coming back in 200 years. But the court's decision is correct, assuming that the father isn't forced to pay for the scam. We allow people to pick all kinds of religious funerals and beliefs about the afterlife, even though none of them are true, so how is freezing the body any different from burying it and having a priest say some words about how the deceased will be reborn with Jesus? She made her choice, and that should be the end of it from the legal point of view.

 Peregrine wrote:
This is just sad. The cryogenics scammers who prey on the terrified and vulnerable should be ashamed of themselves, and probably spending time in prison for fraud. And that poor girl, clinging to the false hope of coming back in 200 years. But the court's decision is correct, assuming that the father isn't forced to pay for the scam. We allow people to pick all kinds of religious funerals and beliefs about the afterlife, even though none of them are true, so how is freezing the body any different from burying it and having a priest say some words about how the deceased will be reborn with Jesus? She made her choice, and that should be the end of it from the legal point of view.

Yes, this.

i can understand wanting to cling to whatever hope you can, and it's sad for someone to have to die at that age... but cryogenics is a false hope.

The decision isn't about cryonics. The judge was careful to make that clear. The decision is about whether the estranged divorced father should be able to overrule the wishes of the daughter and mother about what she can do with her life and mortal remains.

I have a fair amount of hope for the future of Cryogenics, but perhaps that is just the sci fi fan in me talking; it's highly unlikely that a way to revive people consistently from cryostasis will be discovered in our lifetimes, if at all. Still, there is certainly enough reason to research into the possibility of effective cryostasis, and if a 14 year old dying of cancer wished for cryogenic technology to work out (or if anyone is willing to donate their body to it), then I think it should be investigated.

You do have to pay for this special treatment though if you wish to be locked up in a fridge for how ever many years - £37,000 in this case. The parents would have paid for it had JS's maternal grandparents not stepped in and raised the funds to cover the cryonic process.

There was an article I read some time ago about the idea of cryogenics being completely possible, but I cannot find it Still, I'm going to remain neutrally reluctant on the matter of cryogenics until we see some noteworthy progression or steps backward in its effectiveness.

G.A

Cryogenic freezing on the level of individual cells is very doable. The problem is that the methods used would be deadly to an organism (i.e., submerging all of your cells in DMSO before they freeze you). Otherwise, all of your cells pop as you freeze.

In other words, this whole thing is wishful thinking. Sad for the girl and her family.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Cryogenic freezing on the level of individual cells is very doable. The problem is that the methods used would be deadly to an organism (i.e., submerging all of your cells in DMSO before they freeze you). Otherwise, all of your cells pop as you freeze.

In other words, this whole thing is wishful thinking. Sad for the girl and her family.

Not really sad. Her wishes and all that.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

Unless he knows the current state of Cryogenics tech, and is being asked to help pay for it.

This. Modern "cryogenics" (or "cryonics" as it was called at one time) is nothing more than a money racket, playing on people's fear of death, and the inability of some to let go (thus stunting the natural progression of the grieving process).


The guy might indeed be acting like a dick for the reasons you stated. I'll add that maybe he also wants his daughter to have a proper burial and laid to rest with dignity.


I support cryogenic research because of the possibility of long distance space travel in the future. But in my opinion, it will be centuries (if ever) before it can be used to cheat the Grim Reaper.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Not really sad. Her wishes and all that.

It's sad because she's the victim of a scam, using her fear of dying to extort large amounts of money with false promises of life after death.

Reading the article, it's not so "white and black" about the father. The father doesn't seem to believe in cryogenics and think it's a waste of time and money. Even if it succeeds, the thing is there is no guarantee she would find any relative at the time when it would be possible, not even talking about her memory or even in what physical state she could be. So there is also no guarantee her life would be better, easier or even longer if it succeeds.

It is really about freezing her body after her death. Sure, these are her last wishes, but cryogenics is expensive and the money was raised for the occazion by her mother's family. The father, who also has cancer, seemed to see that as an useless charge on her relatives. Also, mourning matter, certainly.

So, who is the real selfish person here? I don't think it's so clear. It's not like the last wish of that poor girl was especially free, after all...and since she would die, that's not her who would be bothered by debts or money.

Still, it was interesting to talk about this. Seems like there are a lot of "legal holes" about cryogenics and access to the preserved bodies. The judge raised some of these questions for the future. And he certainly didn't charge the father about his decision, because it's still a heavy one. Since that doomed girl was still a minor, she couldn't legally decide just by herself.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's sad because she's the victim of a scam, using her fear of dying to extort large amounts of money with false promises of life after death.

I'm not too sure on that one, since she did say that she was totally aware that she was going to die, and that she wanted this opportunity to at least be possible for her. Whether cryogenic research comes up with nothing after decades of time, or if we end up seeing the new way to cheat death in our lifetimes, I don't think she was naive enough to not know that there is a big chance that this won't work.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't believe in cryogenics but it is sad to die at 14 and if it offers a tiny hope of revival it's absolutely right that she should be allowed that hope.

The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

I read the cheapest form of cryogenic freezing costs £37,000. Most people haven't got that sort of money to spend on what amounts to a burial.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't believe in cryogenics but it is sad to die at 14 and if it offers a tiny hope of revival it's absolutely right that she should be allowed that hope.

The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

Anyone who understands cryogenic freezing understands that this offers zero hope of revival - freezing without the correct methods (which do not exist for animals the size of people) is a sure way to completely destroy most if not all of an organism's cells. The damage is already done.

Let's look at just the business side of all of this. Do you guys know how many Cryogenics businesses go out of business? A LOT! What happens then? basically they throw the bodies away.

Even the ones that do stay in business are known to "loose" bodies and have no idea where they are. They are also prone to prolonged power failures and equipment failures that let bodies thaw and rot.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Let's look at just the business side of all of this. Do you guys know how many Cryogenics businesses go out of business? A LOT! What happens then? basically they throw the bodies away.

Even the ones that do stay in business are known to "loose" bodies and have no idea where they are. They are also prone to prolonged power failures and equipment failures that let bodies thaw and rot.

Yeah, I'd actually have said £37 GBP is extremely cheap if they plan to hold on to your body for decades if not centuries, given a funeral itself can easily cost £5-10k. A car parking space in a major city will cost you more than £37k GBP.

For that price I would be worried that they aren't going to treat the body with respect in the long term.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't believe in cryogenics but it is sad to die at 14 and if it offers a tiny hope of revival it's absolutely right that she should be allowed that hope.

The father objecting clearly was just being a prick.

Anyone who understands cryogenic freezing understands that this offers zero hope of revival - freezing without the correct methods (which do not exist for animals the size of people) is a sure way to completely destroy most if not all of an organism's cells. The damage is already done.

Yes, but the case is not about cryonics, it is about the mother versus the father's right to authorise the daughter to do what she wanted.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Let's look at just the business side of all of this. Do you guys know how many Cryogenics businesses go out of business? A LOT! What happens then? basically they throw the bodies away.

Even the ones that do stay in business are known to "loose" bodies and have no idea where they are. They are also prone to prolonged power failures and equipment failures that let bodies thaw and rot.

Yeah, I'd actually have said £37 GBP is extremely cheap if they plan to hold on to your body for decades if not centuries, given a funeral itself can easily cost £5-10k. A car parking space in a major city will cost you more than £37k GBP.

For that price I would be worried that they aren't going to treat the body with respect in the long term.

Its a odd one.... Your trusting said company to exist x decades or centuries later...
And it ain't maintenance free. So you do need staff and such.

Its a strange situation to be sure.

So when the 40k universe hits its lowest point they can revive Guilliman to marshal the forces and take the fight to the enemy threatening mankind's existence

We get a 14 year old girl who died of cancer

Water crystallizes and expands when it freezes.
We are made up of 80% water.

Cryogenics would have to be something quite different from simple freezing in order to work for humans. Some organisms can do it just fine, and actually do so often. (Tardigrades)

People are being scammed. Shame the girl died at 14 though.

I would not be so quick to criticize the father. The article notes that the father was "concerned about the moral and ethical implications" (so am I) and "and whether he could be pursued for payments" (which also seems reasonable). His lose-lose description of cryogenics is, moreover, quite compelling - if, seemingly, legally irrelevant.

I think the most interesting information is that the father attempted to exchange his consent for the right to view his daughter's body, which both the mother and the daughter refused. Furthermore - according to the article, the ruling was not that the minor decedant's wishes control but rather that her mother would have "the sole right to decide what happened to her daughter’s body." I would be interested in the actual legal reasoning for excluding the father's input.