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Lets start with the 'War in Heaven'. It's my belief that the War in Heaven of Eldar myth is the same event as the War in Heaven of Necron history, simply remembered from two different perspectives.

In one of the older Eldar codices, it states that during the War in Heaven, gods changed sides multiple times during the conflict. Although this hasn't been mentioned since, it does fit with the Necron telling where the Deceiver played both sides during the conflict (and is most likely one and the same entity as Cegorach, during the War in Heaven at least).

However, it specifically states that 'gods' changed sides during the conflict. Khaine is an obvious one as part of the Eldar myth is that he fought against Vaul and Kurnous. However, could there have been more?

What do you think of the possibility that Vaul could have been a C'Tan?

Hear me out. Vaul was the Eldar smith god, and also the source of much of the eldar's greatest technological artifacts. Now, I've heard of Mars being described as 'the Vaul Moon'. Only Mars. I haven't heard of any other forgeworlds being called that. What's hidden away on Mars? The Void Dragon, a C'Tan with godlike control over machines. Coincidence? Almost certainly. Fun piece of conspiracy-theory conjecture? Definitely

Ok. I'll take my tinfoil hat off now back to your scheduled programming...

I think the Eldar myth is a cultural memory of the War in Heaven. The Eldar made up the gods to represent significant figures during the conflict. Then their powerful psychic gestalt made these gods real thanks to the nature of the warp.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think the Eldar myth is a cultural memory of the War in Heaven. The Eldar made up the gods to represent significant figures during the conflict. Then their powerful psychic gestalt made these gods real thanks to the nature of the warp.

Yep me too

Cegorach for instance has some very obvious parallels with The Deceiver (who we know played both sides in the conflict). I was just wondering if he wasn't alone in being formed from the racial memory of a C'Tan (although given that Vaul was pretty much unanimously on the side of the eldar I'm starting to think he's a poor candidate).

It also depends on if the Eldar gods are like very powerful Greater Daemons but still linked to the Great Powers of the Warp.

We know for instance that Khorne and Slaanesh both considered Khaine as part of themselves - hence the fight over him, Isha was Nurgle and Slaanesh IIRC, likely the same with other gods.

I think its more likely the Deceiver pretended to be gods?

I agree with your headcannon, it's a case I've often made myself on this forum. It makes the most sense considering both the conflicts between the Eldar Gods was called the War in the Heavens as well as the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan. Also considering certain feats being attributed to both the Deceiver and Cegorarch, it fits the bill that Cegorarch is a psychic manifestation of the Deceiver.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea of Vaul being the Void Dragon, I'd rather he was just a particularly industrious Old One. This is due to the idea Vaul helped Isha and Kurnous, as well as Eldanesh, these are things I couldn't imagine the most powerful C'Tan doing.

On the other hand there are some striking similarities. Vaul picking a fight with Khaine, then being sundered, chained to his anvil in order to work for Khaine. Is it weird that this is the EXACT same story that happened to the Void Dragon, now ''chained'' to his anvil in the Noctus labyrinth and was used by the Emperor to influence technological advancements. So you might be on to something, or it might just be convenient.

Hmmm, I don't see them as functionally similar to Greater Daemons. Greater Daemons are fractions of the Chaos Gods, split off to do their bidding.

I feel like the Eldar Gods are standalone warp entities constructed purely by the Eldar (by dint of their increased psychic potential). Khorne and Slaanesh may have laid claim to parts of their domains when the eldar tore themselves apart, but I certainly don't see them as fractions of the other Chaos powers.

Think of them like Gork and Mork. Definite distinct warp entities, although with domains that blur into Khorne.

The reason I think Cegorach and The Deceiver are one and the same entity is that both of them lay claim to convincing C'Tan to eat each other. The timeline I see for Cegorach goes like this:

1. The Deceiver plays both sides in the War in Heaven. By allying itself with both sides, it can further its own agenda while weakening the other powers. The Eldar call this entity Cegorach, the Necrons call it Mephet'ran.

2. The Old Ones are annihilated, and the C'Tan are sharded. Either way, The Deceiver gets boned.

3. Aeons later, the combined consciousness of the Eldar manifests deities based on blurred memories of the major players in the War in Heaven. One of the entities that they birthed they called Cegorach, constructed from their racial memory of The Deceiver.

The reason it's that way around is because we've definitely got evidence that the C'Tan The Deceiver was real as there's shards of him left. If they were linked, it'd have to be that Cegorach was 'born' from The Deceiver, so to speak.

I don't now - I think its certainly how Chaos view the Eldar Gods? I have not formed a firm opinion as yet

its sort complicated by the way that the Elf Gods were sometimes portrayed in WFB novels - as huge Chthonian entities in the warp that only a fraction of their intellect noticed and interacted with the Elves.

I should probably declare my bias on the whole Eldar Gods being part of the Chaos Gods front. This explains it quite succinctly:



Undoubtedly it affects what I think about them, but I still think that it holds up given the nature of Gork and Mork. Separate entities entirely to the Chaos Gods, but the Chaos Gods are still fed alongside them by the actions of the Eldar/Orks. All violence feeds Khorne, to a greater or lesser degree. However, Gork/Mork and Khaine are fed specifically by the Orks/Eldar respectively. Whether you want to categorise that as them being portions of the Chaos Gods, or separate entities feeding on the same stream of emotions is probably a matter of semantics!

I have to dig out the old Necron codex, but the War in Heaven section spells out a chain of events that includes the C'Tan ruling a galaxy full of cattle races for eons before turning on each other. The Eldar were likely extant at that point, almost certainly included in the C'Tan's domain. For all we know, the C'Tan spent millions of years ruling the Eldar, and they certainly gave the Eldar the fear of death and the Aspect of the Reaper notion of Khaine. The Deceiver may have planted the seeds of Cegorach early enough for that God to have formed even during the War in Heaven (more of an extended series of wars).

Honestly, every time I hear a theory about how the Eldar gods aren't actually the Eldar gods and are actually one of what are supposed to be their mortal enemies, be it C'tan or Chaos, I die a little inside.

You never get this with Gork and Mork. Let the Eldar have some fething agency in the setting on their own, please.

 Robin5t wrote:
Honestly, every time I hear a theory about how the Eldar gods aren't actually the Eldar gods and are actually one of what are supposed to be their mortal enemies, be it C'tan or Chaos, I die a little inside.

You never get this with Gork and Mork. Let the Eldar have some fething agency in the setting on their own, please.

Hah, I get this a little too. See my quote higher up about sandwiching Khorne into the battle between Khaine and Slaanesh.

However, I should make it clear that I don't think that Cegorach the god is actually The Deceiver. He's a bonafide fully fledged eldar warp construct, just like Khaine. Just borne of the racial memory of The Deceiver.

It's not like I'm saying that the Cegorach of the present day is a shard of the Deceiver*. I'm not a heathen

*which btw is highly unlikely. Cegorach challenges Slaanesh for the souls of Solitaires. The warp-anathema C'Tan would not be able to do that...

 Robin5t wrote:
Honestly, every time I hear a theory about how the Eldar gods aren't actually the Eldar gods and are actually one of what are supposed to be their mortal enemies, be it C'tan or Chaos, I die a little inside.

You never get this with Gork and Mork. Let the Eldar have some fething agency in the setting on their own, please.

Gork and Mork were probably Old Ones who controlled or fed off of the krork, but lost their selves after millions of years of orkening. The Brain Boyz sprouted less often as the ork character distilled into the gorkamorka it is today.