Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Them robot claws are sexy as feth.

I wonder if I could make a decent maulerfiend for my 40k sons from it...

Better yet, make it work both as a castellax for 30k and as a mauler for 40k.

Amon is sweet, but not what I'm waiting for.

Where are my snipers?

Losing initiative and gaining a movement stat is for some reason "low depth"?

Initiative mechanics never added MUCH to the game. they were most of the time all-or-nothing, and very rarely had subtle influences.

Movement? much for subtle influences. a marine moving 5 compared to one moving 6 compared to one moving 7 makes differences in shooting, in assault, in zone control, etc.



Let be honest, they looked for an excuse to put 30k and 40k apart, and this gave them just that.

 Yodhrin wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.

Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?

In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.

Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.

Edit double post.I

Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.

Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.

You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.

You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.

I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.

Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.

That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?

You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.

However, that excuse is pure bul gak, because 8th is MORE granular than 7th ever were, thanks to them stepping out of the characteristic 10 limits, the ability to stack faction keywords (so you can have, for example a "word bearers" and then "gal vorbak" as two keywords)
Plus the fact most rules shift from the genetic rulebook, directly into the units-means you can have different units have slightly different variations of the same rule withou causing a fuss.
The movement stat is a whole new degree of granduality.

The only grandualties 8th "lost" are initiative-and initiative hardly ever mattered, because its a power toggle all-or-nothing switch of "who's first", so its hardly difficult to mimic, and the vehicle armor values/damage table, who are made far more gradual with heavy multi-wound "MC" stats, especially as we seen the big things not being shy from 20+ wounds.

An 8th characther has more wounds than a 7th-so its more gradual there.
Weapon profiles can do different amounts of damage-again more gradual.

8th is not less gradual than 7th, its more. you can have units who's tiny difference is that one walks a tiny bit faster without the need of special rules, and if you need something complex-the system assumes that each unit has its own special rules to begin with, rather than just stacking army-wide rules (who still exist.)


The reason not to shift 30k to 8th, is that its TONS of work, as you can't really use the "plug extension to main marine list" system properly, and you'll need to create a whole lot of new dataslates and rules.
It would be a lot of work that they rather avoid. converting the 40k FW stuff is something they didn't have a choice about, but 30k-they had a choice.
Do hard work to convert, or keep the lazy path and stick to 7th, while taking the excuse to properly seperate the systems (no more legions versus xenos! now we can really be all marines all the time!)
They took the lazy route with a seperation excuse.
Its a valid choice, but the excuse they gave is bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Numarines have compatible shoulder pads, so no need to do anything special for them though.

tneva82 wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.

I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.

7th ed HH>8th ed 40k.

Do give an example.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.

Do we really need all the existing powers?

I mean, half of them are variations of the same thing-especially when witchfires are concerned.
3 powers per lore is enough is you do a truly distinct trio for every lore.

Fires of Cyraxus is baffling me.

Is there a purpose of having tau in the index if they are in Fires as well?

Alternatively, if tau are NOT in fires, does it mean only admech are in?
And if so, what rules ARE there to fill the book? because forgewrold aint got too many Admech if they are not porting 30k admech to 40k.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm super annoyed that nothing can transport primaris marines.

Same here!

It can take Terminators and the cost of 2 slots, and Centurions at the cost of 3 slots, but a Primaris...can't fit?!?

Because Primaris are gonna be their own army and get their own transports on top of alleviating the fear of current marines being defunct?

Regular marines don't allow primaris in their transports, they are bullying the new guys.

The question is, how fared lord troll, aka issodon?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

XeZZ wrote:
How many points are tetras and what BS do they have?

They are garbage, bs 4+ and make a single to hit roll for placing 3 ML markers. They get -1 to hit for moving.

Are you serius?

feth. I have four of these.
I didn't expect MUCH, as markerlights, and tau in general, seems to be pathetic in 8th, but this is absurd.
Why bother with what is basically 3 pathfinders and costs like 8?

Manta has 60 wounds.

Also, the only model I know of with 4 levels of degradation.

How much a warlord has?

 Imateria wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Dimachaerons have a weapon that becomes double strength on 6+ to wound. Yep.

That genuinely made me burst out laughing at work. Ha!

MaxT wrote:
But there's 4 FW indexes, so the only way to take it is hyperbole bs

There's another way to take it: The truth.

You're just nitpicking what they said "Well if it's not exactly 4/5ths of the rules, then it's hyperbole" and basically ignoring the growing litany of problems with the book. Just look at the Chaos Renegade and Tyranid problems. You think those armies are alone in having issues?

To be fair the problems aren't as extensive as some people are making them out to be. For the the Xenos factions there seems to be only one or two problems at most, Renegades and AM seem to be the only lists that have really suffered here (well, and Corsairs since they're no longer an army at all now). Most of the entries still work fine and there's quite a few things that I intend to add to my armies from Forge World now.

Thats not to excuse the problems though, this complete and total lack of proof reading absolutely should not have happened.

One or two problems at most? You are joking right?

Can't tell about necron or eldar, but about half the tau slates have obvious mistakes, inconcictancies or unclear rules (and not "lawyer trap" unclear, full blown "I honestly don't know if it has X or not, or if I pay points for Y, or what Z even does, with rare cases of rules from 7th that 8th got away with being referred)
And that's before going into" why on earth you did it this stupid way" cases like the high intensity markerlight, rules not given to things that are actually on the model, units losing things they used to have (while that thing still very much exists) mismatch between points and power levels (two models with no options, one is more expensive in points, but in power its the other way around), or really dumb overpricing of a few things

The xenos index is really poorly made.
As in, single employee spent a day, tops, quality level.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

And that's before going into" why on earth you did it this stupid way" cases like the high intensity markerlight, rules not given to things that are actually on the model, units losing things they used to have (while that thing still very much exists) mismatch between points and power levels (two models with no options, one is more expensive in points, but in power its the other way around), or really dumb overpricing of a few things

Almost all of these "problems" are subjective problems rather than objective quality issues, though. "Really dumb overpricing" has always been an "issue" with Forgeworld units due to them erring on the side of caution, High Intensity Markerlights work as intended(they're just not GOOD), and units losing previous things is a GW edition change symptom since forever.

Once you take out the subjective issues like these that not everyone sees as problems, the amount of actual issues isn't as many as is being stated, barring the Renegades by volume.

HIM might work as intended, but they way its intended looks as if they didn't even read how markerlights work in 8th, because it honestly makes no sense.
Dumb pricing can be just bad, but at some point it goes beyond bad

And that's why I said half have obvious issues BEFORE you go into these kind of oddities.

I'm talking half have issues when you count ONLY things like missing rules, or obvious point oddballs/errors/omissions.

Ralai missing a pulse submmunition shot on his pulse submmunition rifle, or the XV9's photon casters), his marker drones lack the stable platform rule (so does heavy gun drones)
Ralai also have different T value from XV9, despite sharing the same suit, for no apparent reason. (the only char i know of that has the same armor and different T from his corresponding unit)
Speaking of XV9s, they don't take a support system, they take "one of the abilities listed", so, is it a system you pay for or not?
R'myr upgraded shield generator is identical to a regular shield generator.
Turrent drones immobile repair rule just makes no sense when referring to vehicle repair/ rendering immobile/forcing to move, its not even a vehicle. Also they can't be taken as compulsory troops. except they are no longer troops.
Hammerheads that are identical to GW index but cost WAY different (and even different from each other despite being identical)
Swiftstrike railgun-its exactly like a HRR, except shorter range, and costs more. one the flipside, a long-barrled ion cannon has longer range, it's extra hits ability on large units works on overcharge too (unlike the regular), and it costs less.
Y'Vahra does not say if it can or cannot move after using his "leave table then come back" rule, as unlike most thing that come from off table, he does so at the begining of the move phase, rather than the end.
Railshark has a macro gun, except it's not titanic, and can't stand still, so legally it can never fire.
Remoras referring to the target lock, despite never being mentioned they actually have one-do they have it? do they pay?

These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.

changemod wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
The xenos index is really poorly made.
As in, single employee spent a day, tops, quality level.

Okay, I think the indexes are junk, too. But seriously, I can't tell if this stuff is hyperbolic, rude, or just uninformed.

Any volume of writing like that takes time, and, as others pointed out, one of their lead creators died recently and was sick before.

This job was clearly rushed and poor, but as insulting as it is to consumers for such a poorly proofed product to reach us, it's also I think pretty rude for you to suggest that the work they did took no time.


Personally, I'm irritated that it's so obviously a rush job, and that they should have taken the time to get it right, but I expect that there was a lot of pressure from inside the company to get everything up at once.

It might be a little rude directly to their face, but it's perfectly acceptable use of conversational hyperbole to suggest a poorly made document is done in an afternoon by an intern or whatever.

It's frankly bizzare the basic communication tools that trip people up on the Internet at times.

Also, considering many units are variants of GW index units, they are a copy-paste then edit, and even THESE failed horribly at times (as in, forgot to copy an important rule, or gave a totally different point cost for no reason, or whatever)-I'm honestly not sure its not a one-day-job.

 zedmeister wrote:
More Space Marines anybody?

Its not space marines, its sisters of silence.

Still waiting for the 1ksons snipers...

Alpharius was the first primarch released, when they released the original horus heresy marines.
You simply cant tell him apart from everyone else.

Most things FW took out eventually came back either with a fresh mold so the new casts are not as flawed any more, or with a brand new model.

The only thing off the top of my head that really ever went away and was declared to never return, is the tau Orca, some tau gear, and some kroot models. (plus some drones who got lost for the same reason as the kroot)

The Orca couldn't sell, because it was huge and costed a ton, but in game isn't more than a big taxi, so even if I wanted to get one gamewise, I could not justify the $ tag.
The bits were just too specific. the varius hammerhead turrets were very niche, and mostly not that good.
And the kroot (and drones) didn't sell at all because as pretty as the models were, the rules were so god awful that they made 6th edition possessed and rubric look great.

Actually, it's not the stock response.

When something IS going away, they say so.
Examples are the orca, kroot units, some if the tau turret variations, etc.
Tau had quite a few things "gone forever"

Well, naturally heresy is thier money maker.
It's hard to justify throwing monies on units that liturally can't function in game.

And even when they do, FW canceled entire model lines because they didn't sell, missing that the reason they didn't sell was not because the models were not awesome, but the rules were worse than godamn possessed for several editions.

I'm willing to bet someone will eventually make an unofficial changelong from 7th to HH's "8th"