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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Quite a few 30k players in my group are mad, mostly because it wont use 40k rules, and that their playgroup got smaller because they cant play 40k players.
Our Judge is saying that anyone who wants to play 30k can FORCE their opponent to the 40k 7th.......
Its kinda dumb

If there's 30k tournament kinda obvious opponents need to play 7th ed...If it's not tournament what judge and what forcing? Outside tournaments nobody can force me to play what I don't want. Hell even in tournament they can't force me to play what I don't want.

ITs a 40k league night.

Ok... 40K is the operative word here. They are two separate game systems already, that aren't exactly meant to be played together. This would be like someone showing up to a Age of Sigmar event, with an 8th Edition High Elf army, and demanding the Ironjaws play with those rules. It's ridiculous.

SeanDrake wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.

Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?

In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.

Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.

Edit double post.I

Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.

Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.

You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.

You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.

I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.

Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.

ERJAK wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.

Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?

In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.

Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.

Edit double post.I

Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.

Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.

You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.

You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.

I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.

Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.

That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?

You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.

I'm curious to see if FW tries to fix the flaws with the 3rd-7th ed system without throwing out the baby with the bathwater since they're allowed to make their own ruleset now.

 Yodhrin wrote:
That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?

You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.

8th ed is the one that has bespoken everywhere. Generally the more bespoken rules you have the shallower the core rules are. So 8th ed is the shallow one.

Wide as an ocean, as deep as a kiddie pool.

Kings of War is a very shallow game and it works just right.
Not the type of gameplay that I like. But to me words like "shallow", "bloated", "complex", etc... are often overused as if they alone mean something about what makes a good (or bad) ruleset.

Shallow =/= Bad. IT means its simpler, it means you have to learn less and less rules
D&D 5th edition is more shallow than Pathfinder, but pathfinder hurts my head.

That's probably enough on the general "shallow vs deep" discussion tangent - this is the Forge World News thread, and we're getting pretty far afield from it.

So, let's get back to the thread topic, please - thanks all.

Ok, Fair enough
Onto other stuff.
Rumor is Indexes are 15pounds, so like 20-25$.
So gonna buy some LOL

I'm looking forward to seeing what FW do with 7th.

Getting the xenos compilation books is gonna be rough, gotta figure out what else to buy in order to get free shipping

Pray to the God Emperor that they make them Digital!

 Yodhrin wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
Got me confused here too. For one, sticking to 7th is pretty logical as phasing out that many volumes of HH books, that cost 70-80 quid each would most likely cause a massive shitstorm.

On the other hand, there's the question: for how long? Will they just stick to 7th, until they release pretty much everything and then leave it as a half-dead setting with minor tweaks one in a while? Because they would eventually have to phase out all the books anyways..

I would hope that they stick with 7th until a sensible break-point like the Siege of Terra book/s so that everyone who wants it can have a "complete" set of Heresy rules based on 7th. Once that point is reached, they can switch over to 8th if they intend to carry on into The Scouring or whichever other "historical" period of 40K they choose to cover, and could release a set of final compilation Red Books in 8th as well if they think there would be sufficient demand.

Hell, I might well get an 8th Ed version of the HH rules, but only if I can finish my existing collection of content first in case I find I don't enjoy 8th.

Yup this is what I see happening. A total 7th edition set for the whole heresy up to the final round hype at Terra. Then a clean break into 8th edition stuff with or the scouring for like ever all the different space marine shoulder pads they could release would be epic.

Maybe they are just waiting until the nu marines get their multi part kit so they can sell nu marine shoulder pads along with nu marine ' cool awesome stuff'

I am happy they are doing the 7th full rules for the heresy tho, at least it is all self contained in one edition...ok well 2 but they are so close anyways, like 6th and 7th are like closer then kissing cousins......

 Yodhrin wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Someone at Forge World wrote:The 8th edition rules didn't give them the depth to have differences between all 18 Legions, whereas a streamlined 7th edition does allow this.

Now that's a rather...interesting thing to say, isn't it?

In that it's a direct insult of the main design studio? Yes.

Flipside it also accidentally acknowledging that every HH legion army is so nearly identical to each other that you need tons and tons of extra words to make it not just 18 armies worth of mirror matches.

Edit double post.I

Nah each legion has 2 pages of bespoke rules and thats it other than legion specific units. You can do that with a fully functioning core rule set.

Also they are basicly saying aos/8th is shallow which it is and your comment seems to apply to 8th more given the whole bespoke rules every unit.

You can think that if you want but the truth is that it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.

You think that 8th is shallow and that's why they are choosing to stick to 7th.

I think that HH armies are shallow so they need the extra gunk that 40k ditched to hide how similar everything is.

Either one of us, or even both. We'll never know.

That seems a tad nonsensical. HH armies are not shallow but they are similar, that's an unavoidable outcome of the premise of the setting(non-Astartes forces aside). If 8th can't provide sufficient granularity to make the various Legions play differently, then the problem, if that's the right word, is 8th. If my aim is to put a screw into a wall and I have to choose either a hammer or a screwdriver, how is it the screw's fault that the hammer is insufficient to the task?

You seem to be taking it as a value judgement that 8th is inferior, but FW merely seem to think it's the wrong tool for the job.

However, that excuse is pure bul gak, because 8th is MORE granular than 7th ever were, thanks to them stepping out of the characteristic 10 limits, the ability to stack faction keywords (so you can have, for example a "word bearers" and then "gal vorbak" as two keywords)
Plus the fact most rules shift from the genetic rulebook, directly into the units-means you can have different units have slightly different variations of the same rule withou causing a fuss.
The movement stat is a whole new degree of granduality.

The only grandualties 8th "lost" are initiative-and initiative hardly ever mattered, because its a power toggle all-or-nothing switch of "who's first", so its hardly difficult to mimic, and the vehicle armor values/damage table, who are made far more gradual with heavy multi-wound "MC" stats, especially as we seen the big things not being shy from 20+ wounds.

An 8th characther has more wounds than a 7th-so its more gradual there.
Weapon profiles can do different amounts of damage-again more gradual.

8th is not less gradual than 7th, its more. you can have units who's tiny difference is that one walks a tiny bit faster without the need of special rules, and if you need something complex-the system assumes that each unit has its own special rules to begin with, rather than just stacking army-wide rules (who still exist.)


The reason not to shift 30k to 8th, is that its TONS of work, as you can't really use the "plug extension to main marine list" system properly, and you'll need to create a whole lot of new dataslates and rules.
It would be a lot of work that they rather avoid. converting the 40k FW stuff is something they didn't have a choice about, but 30k-they had a choice.
Do hard work to convert, or keep the lazy path and stick to 7th, while taking the excuse to properly seperate the systems (no more legions versus xenos! now we can really be all marines all the time!)
They took the lazy route with a seperation excuse.
Its a valid choice, but the excuse they gave is bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Numarines have compatible shoulder pads, so no need to do anything special for them though.

It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.

I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.

7th ed HH>8th ed 40k.

Yeah, converting to 8e won't be hard, but it will involve lots more work for an already overstretched team, invalidating existing work (not the published stuff, but the pre publication Angelus and whatever mechanic they have set for the remaining legions) and a whole bunch of centralised decisions, which will be difficult while they recover from abruptly losing their head of development.

A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.

If that's so, why here in the Forge World thread and not the main 8th edition thread?

What's the usual turn around for models announced at warhammerfest? Particularly the Custodes.

I'm hoping the heavy dread is out sometime in June as I'm going warhammerworld in July

tneva82 wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.

I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.

7th ed HH>8th ed 40k.

Do give an example.

Luminous Lizard wrote:
What's the usual turn around for models announced at warhammerfest? Particularly the Custodes.

I'm hoping the heavy dread is out sometime in June as I'm going warhammerworld in July

It depends, although the heavy dread was available to buy at warhammerfest so that won't be long at all.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.

Do we really need all the existing powers?

I mean, half of them are variations of the same thing-especially when witchfires are concerned.
3 powers per lore is enough is you do a truly distinct trio for every lore.

 BoomWolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible to replay battles in the horus heresy book series and have it feel like in books in 8th ed. Possible in 7th ed.

I read fallen angels recently and laughed how badly 8th ed would be usable for that story. It's not even implausible events but flat out what CANNOT happen in 8th ed period.

7th ed HH>8th ed 40k.

Do give an example.

Dark angels lie in ambush, tank lumbers in, melta gun fires, tank explodes. Easiest one of them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A whole 3 powers?

Yeah, that sounds like a typical example game design via pendulum swing for GW.

What are you talking about?

Seriously, could you quote what you're replying to, please? Or expand on your reply a little? Because this doesn't seem to follow from anything on this page…

Refers to 8th ed psychic lores(at least ones shown so far) having 3 powers.

Do we really need all the existing powers?

I mean, half of them are variations of the same thing-especially when witchfires are concerned.
3 powers per lore is enough is you do a truly distinct trio for every lore.

Did I say anything about them being enough/not enough?

Though means lvl 3 psykers are too certain in them and generally psykers in a whole too reliable in getting the killer spells they really want.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Luminous Lizard wrote:
What's the usual turn around for models announced at warhammerfest? Particularly the Custodes.

I'm hoping the heavy dread is out sometime in June as I'm going warhammerworld in July

It depends, although the heavy dread was available to buy at warhammerfest so that won't be long at all.

Yeah; announced models, like the ones pictured in the seminars, are kind of a "forthcoming attractions" preview of the year ahead (or even longer if we're talking about a certain set of knightly decals…) but models they have on pre-sale like the Telemon Heavy Dreadnought or the Goblin positionals are usually on general release in weeks.

I think the main thing I want from 8th applied to 30k is Rending values. Otherwise they can keep everything the same if they want.

I know some people will always bemoan the lack of choice, but honestly I'd prefer if there were only 3 options that were all generally useful or good, instead of having two or even three times as many options, but still only being left with a couple that are actually worth using. I don't see the point in being given a "choice" that I'll never willingly want to use. That's not really a "choice" in my opinion.

And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.

I'm not sure why this discussion started in the FW thread and not the 8th edition thread, but whatever. Anyway, speaking of FW, I love the new tigershark and I wanna know when that's going to come out. I'm glad I didn't buy the new barracuda yet, so I can get a pair of them and a tigershark all at once.

 Sidstyler wrote:
And I'm sure it's been said before, but if the whole purpose of having multiple powers and having so many that are either extremely situational or just plain bad was to "balance" the good ones, because the powers were always randomly selected, then that's just terrible game design. I don't mind one bit that every "lore" only has three spells if it turns out those spells are all equally good. As for being able to get them reliably, you should be able to get what you want in the first place. It shouldn't be random and none of the powers should be so powerful that being able to pick the one you want breaks the game.

Except spells WON'T be equal. So with the pick what you want you will just see certain spells picked up rather than others.