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I'd say someone needs to take a closer look to NightScythes as Triach Preatorians' rides. I haven't been a huge fan of the Judicator Battalion, but someone who fields it regularly should definetely try it out!

Also, I'll bring my love for Ghost Arks in this thread as well. This vehicle is amazingly survivable against anything (even D shots) exept mostly grav. If you can just avoid/neutralise Grav shots, you're in for quite a surprise. Ghost Arks models are very nice for abusing firing, ranges and objective grabbing. There's just about absolutely nothing stopping you from jinking every single turn and still firing way more shots than you'd normally shoot with your warriors. Plus, warriors in Decurions are Relentless and the Ghost Ark is open topped, so there's nothing stopping you from assaulting from a Ghost Ark either.

Now, Judicator Battalions have more than enough reason to get Ghost Arks since they're bringing a Triarch Stalker and more AV 13 is more saturation, or possibly more cover for their Stalker. And, based on this sort of conclusion, then this would possibly be a list where a Monolith could possibly be kind of safe and very nice to use (with Prets, Lychguard, warriors, Immortals being good Eternity Gate targets). With all that mentioned, here's my first try at a Judicator Battalion list: (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/715057.page#9149946)

Marshal_Gus wrote:
So Wraiths don't suffer an initiative penalty when charging through difficult terrain, but what about the 5 ICs attached to the unit?

There usually are not 5 IC's attached to Wraiths units. Otherwise, you're slowing down your Wraiths down to Lychguard speed, in which case, you could just go for Lychguard. There's 1 Destroyer Lord usually and he does get Initiative 1 instead of 2.

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I'd say someone needs to take a closer look to NightScythes as Triach Preatorians' rides.

I haven't checked, was there a FAQ for the Flyer supplement? (and if so, was there anything about Night Scythes having Skyfire?)

No, you're right. They're probably not that usefull if DftS is being used. Still worth a game or two?

Also, in that list you posted, you really should put something else on that RC Overlord with the Void Reaper. Phase Shifter at bare minimum.

I don't know. I've 4 characters in the same squad to take challenges. I've bodyguards all arround to tank shots. I might swap the Phase Shifter from the VoD OL to the Voidreaper OL but it wouldn't make too much difference.

 skoffs wrote:
Or, you know, replace them with Wraiths?

Or you know, don't multi-assault your deathstar with some lame Scarabs? How did you manage that..?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Tier units/models: Tier may change if equipped differently.

Top tier:
- Wraiths
- Warriors
- Tomb Blades
- Destroyers

Mid tier:
- Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Flayed Ones
- Immortals
- Praetorians
- Night Scythe
- Ghostark

Bottom tier:
- Deathmarks
- Lynchguard
- C'tans
- all other vehicles

How are warriors top tier and Deathmarks and Lychguard are bottom tier? Every list that has ever done well in competitive play either included Lychguard or Deathmarks. Also, how do you have Ghost Arks in the same level as Night Scythes? I really don't get how Immortals are also mid tier, they're probably one of the worst units in the codex, all they do is be a tax for RL. It's good to have personal opinions (like how I like the Monolith too much), but spreading such tiers without taking any of the successful lists into account is kind of an overstatement.

I'd say top tier is: Deathmarks, Lychguard, Wraiths, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Destroyer Lords

Mid tier is: Prets, Flayed Ones, Ghost Arks, Overlords, Zahndrekh, Orikan

Bot tier is: Vehicles, C'tans, Warriors, Immortals, Scarabs, Spyders, most named HQs, Crypteks

But, then it's not very indicative, because of what difference it makes when you field those models in formations. For example, Destroyers outside the Destroyer Cult are quite bad. Triarch Stalkers can't be judged alone because they are part of a good formation.

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, I want to hear honest opinions:
Can the Obelisk be competitive now, with the fixes to its guns?
If so, what are its uses?

I do believe so. Problem still being that it's too vulnerable for its point cost, but it has the potential. The Living Tomb formation (hey what can I say, I'm a monolith fan) looks very good. Here is LVO's relevant list: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Jon-Camacho-7th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

I guess 16 Deathmarks, all of the str7 shots from the Obelisk and the Prets were quite a lot of shooting for Eldar and TAU MC's and GC's. This list looks like a good answer to MC/GC spam which is probably what you are going to face in GT environment.

Also, the Obelisk should be pretty good at killing all the armor in Battle Companies. It's pretty effective at killing rhinos.

I really don't know if it would be effective in other lists besides the Pret/Deathmarks combo. That's up for testing and I don't own one Obelisk (although, I'd love to have one, it looks great). Personally, I feel like maybe you could save some points here and there and play it together with a Destroyer Cult.

 Akar wrote:
If you're not going to state why they're top tier then it's not going to help. They can't even be in a top tier position if you can't even say why they belong there. Especially when they've never been in that position. The current Dex gave them some much needed attention, but that's not any kind of answer to the question now is it? They needed the buff to be fieldable, and they only barely make the cut.

They've been competitive ever since the 5th edition Matt Ward codex. Very fast, durable and solving a lot of problems Necrons could not solve otherwise. (By either scaring people, eating tons of bullets or tarpitting, even killing stuff). Back then, everyone played single CAD wether you liked it or not, with no Allies and no weird stuff. All the competitive lists ever since that codex went out almost included wraiths. They were not "bearly fieldable". They were a Necron staple in any list and the very well known "wraithwing" with 18 Wraiths was a list you'd meet at almost every flgs (It was the army of the month for many consecutive months).(Although, I'm not claiming it was actually a top list, just that everyone and his dog played it and it was considered cheese). Then, came 6th edition and Balance and list-building went all in very different directions. Allies and flyers were introduced and Necron flyers were possibly the best. Arguably, not many people stuck to wraiths, when you could field as many flyers as possible (+ barges) and shoot more, but that did not mean they were "bearly fieldable", merely they were outshined by the imbalanced flyer-heavy meta, favoring any tesla in the codex over everything else. Now, in 7th edition they're brought back to life BOTH because tesla is nerfed AND because they got buffed. But, mostly, because now in 7th edition just about every army has something new and crazy, some titan, superheavy, invisible, focused shooting, big pew, shiny special unit. That unit is problem for Necrons. We lack Str D, we lack stomps, we lack special psychic powers or psychic cancell/defence. We lack any good shooting choices (How on earth do you plan to shoot a Wraithknight, Knight or Stormsurge with Necron shooting?) to deal with the things people field. So, our answer to everything is an all rounder very fast, terrain-ignoring, scoring, fearless, tough to kill tarpitter. Is that really a surprise?

Let's look at Wraiths. Keep in mind these are my opinions, based on my experiences since they showed up the first time. I expect some disagreement and that's fine, this is a tactics thread. I'm fully aware of what their stats are, what they're capable of, and I'm not questioning what makes them good. I am questioning what you guys think makes them Top Tier? Not one soul has been able to give me an answer. My experience has shown me that there isn't anything they do, that can't be done better by the other options.

If the 7th edition has taught me one thing, is that every time you want to play a game of 40k, you're going to either meet Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Knights, invisible deathstars, Grav Deathstars, Ridiculous cover saves, amazing saves and rerolls, big guns and whatnot.We're not playing versus Rhinos and Marines anymore. Wraiths are the only unit that provides somewhat of an answer to quite some of those threats. Beasts with 12" movement and fleet that ignore terrain are amazingly easy to navigate on enemy stormsurges. The ammount of shooting that they will draw because of that fact and the shift away from the attention from the rest of your army is priceless. Because, point for point they are VERY survivable compared to just about anything. They're only instadying to Str10 and StrD. In the Canoptek Harvest Formation that most use them, they will also get the RP roll on the first round at least for a ridiculous 3++ 5T 2W, 4+++ 40 point model. And the thing is, that most people will shoot them anyway. You can't imagine just how many times a 40k game was played in 7th edition with a TAU played wasting an entire round of shooting on a unit of Wraiths only to have them survive and assault/tarpit next turn.

Expensive as feth bike deathstar with ridiculous cover saves, possible grav abuse and lots of psychic? Wraiths are absolutely the finest and only answer our codex can bring in any context or shape or form. (not to mention how funny grav looks when it shoots wraiths)

- With the exception of maybe the Ctan and Spyders (which have other purposes), the Wraiths are the most expensive per model out of the available options. Praetorians and Lychguard are a few points more per wound, but that gap narrows as units get larger, or when Wraiths waste points on Coils, and I'll come back to this.

And they all do have their merits. I like both Lychguard and Preatorians and use them all the time, but they have different roles from the Wraiths. They serve different purposes, different goals and should mostly have different targets too. They fill different holes in Necron lists.

Whip Coils just got FAQ'ed and keep you on initiative 5 even when charging through terrain. I still, usually, stick to a maximum of 3 per unit, but they're hardly a waste of points.

- T5/2W/3+. Against the majority of non MEQ stuff, which is the majority of weapons out there, this is all Wraiths are. There seems to be a big deal made about the Invul, but that's only great against anti-MEQ stuff. My Plague Marine friend laughs at why people think that the Invul is great, as they are pretty easily dealt with by conventional weapons. Lychguard and Praetorians are also T5, have a 3+ save and come with RP. Flayed Ones get you 3W per Wraith, aren't as resilient but again, come with RP. Scarabs will give you twice the number of wounds, but I'll admit this is tricky with how common S7 is right now. For those that count Wounds, Toughness, and Saves, Wraiths aren't the Top Tier choice out of the available options.

There's obviously a huge difference between 3+ and 3++. If it was as you say, people would use the cheaper Lychguard with 5 Warscythes and wreck face with STR7 AP1 Armorbane attacks at 125 points. However, I'm going to elaborate more, since you seem like a person who enjoys arguements.

Let's go back to 7th edition meta, because all this discussion feels out of place untill we decide on context. I'm going to assume we're talking about 7th edition competitive meta. (after all, a tactics discussion is obviously always made in the context of competition, not fun and casual games, right?)

7th edition, big shiny pewpew monsters, a lot of Elite forces, very few horde, STR D shots, expensive deathstars etc. I don't know if you see where I'm going with this. But, the thing is there's not as much bolterguns as there used to be. There's no Tesla as there used to be. Where dem autocannons? People have shifted together with the meta to less bodies, less bolters, more bigger guns. Half the lists out there are 10 Grav guns, 10 melta gun and 15 bolters and the rest are stormsurge/wraithknight Destroyer shots, Ion blasts etc.

Your Plague Marine friend laughs at why people think that the Invul is great and the people laugh back because your Plague Marine friend hasn't won a game since 3rd edition.

- Fearless/Jump. Praetorians and Scarabs have the same move and are Fearless. Wraithflight is only an advantage here in that rare situation where you put yourself into a position to allow your opponent to get something in range that needs to be dealt with that the other units can't get to. Flayed Ones offset their move with Infiltrate, and played aggressively, should hit the enemy lines the same time as the Wraiths. Lychguard and Flayed Ones have enough damage output that LD10 is more than enough to keep them in a fight. With so many options available in the Dex to get Fearless, or abuse the LD10, Wraiths don't Top Tier here either.

LD10 is definetely not more than enough to keep them in a fight. Lose an assault by 2-3 wounds and you have to roll a 7, which is really easy to fail. It's possibly the worst tarpit, if it's just leadership 10 and you can't really assault anything scary.

Praetorians have a very different role on the battlefield, you certainly can't assault anything scary with them, as they will turn to dust. They're more glass-cannon, precision shot on something you want really dead.

Scarabs are honestly gak. Probably one of the worst units in the codex. A single scatbike squad with 3 bikes (at 81 points, on a very mobile and tough ObSec unit) can slaughter an entire squad of scarabs in a matter of seconds. A simple blast will make an entire unit disappear. They rarely get the charge off and when they do they will die quite easily in assault too without killing really anything (or really tarpitting anything usefull at least).

And while everything I said is enough, since prets and scarabs can't possibly do what wraiths do, wraiths also have more uses. Throw in a Destroyer lord and they actually become a quite reasonable assault threat. I, personally, have a Destroyer lord in my lists when fielding Wraiths and I decide wether or not I will field him with the Wraiths or the Lychguard based on what the Wraiths shall do each game. If they tarpit something too scary, I join him to my Lychguard. If there's nothing too scary, the Wraiths will help him assault in no-time (a very good delivery method) and he can slaughter stuff since he's quite a monster. Give him a 2+ and the unit becomes virtually immortal with him at T6 tanking any "bolter shots" (like you said) and the Wraiths "Looking out sir" on a 2+ for anything that needs an invunlerable.

- Attacks. This seems to be the big sticking point for me as people try to tell me this is a big selling point. At 3A per model, they have the lowest wound count potential of the options. Rending is nice, but with so few attacks it's not enough to be consistently reliable. Praetorians are the only ones that shoot, which alone puts the equal to Wraiths attacks per model, which is double the number of attacks per wound. Flayed Ones put out 4 Attacks per wound with Shred, with T8 being the only advantage that Wraiths have on them as far as Attacks are concerned, and only then if you're not taking enough other Necrons goodness to deal with T8. (Which I'm seeing is pretty common on Wraith dependent lists). Scarabs are the same Attacks per model, but fewer per wound. They can wound anything the Wraiths can, and still do fine against Armor. With other units providing more Attacks, or more Efficient Attacks than Wraiths, they don't Top Tier here by a long shot.

No, attacks is definetely not the Wraiths' selling point. Their speed and durability is.

** I stand by what I said when I say that Whip Coils are a waste. The recent FAQ reverted Whip Coils back to being useful, but they dont increase the number of attacks. So you pay a small number of point to insure those attacks, but this also makes the cost of Praetorians/Lychguard a more attractive option.

How does paying ~9 points for 3 whip coils (for a whooping 12 str 6 rending attacks at initiative 5) make Praetorians or Lychguard more attractive? Are 9 points too much? Do the Preatorians get anything to help them survive before they strike at Initiative 2?

- Tarpit. As a standalone unit, this is where Wraiths shine. Especially in low model count CAD based lists. In more average lists, not including Decurion, they don't have RP and Cron players will eventually find a balance where the damage output of the army as a whole, combined with RP to not need to rely on Tarpit tactics. There is one exception to this, but I'll get to that at the end. Regardless, Wraiths might Top Tier here, but as soon as a Cron player gets a handle on what the army does, or moves into a Decurion, they lose the seat here to other options, including non assault options.

This is where we disagree. It's impossible to not rely on tarpit. A necron list (or really, ANY list this edition) cannot deal with everything else that there is right now on the competitive scene. There's knights, there's Wraithknights, there's Riptide wings, stormsurges, invisible deathstars, flying tyranids, psycher deathstars, demons, etc etc. It's simply too much. It's not good old 5th edition where you just pack enough anti-infantry and enough anti-tank and you have it. You need psychic defence, you need something to bypass cover saves, you need GC protection, unkillable deathstar protection etc etc.
You name one thing that can deal with Wraithknights and I'll concede the point.

- "Jack of all Trades, Master of None". The combination of having strengths is each of these categories combines to make their cost sufficient enough add to lists. This makes them a great learning tool for newer players to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of the army. Particularly those who don't know which of the above units to fill the role that they are taking Wraiths for. Even I recommend them at this stage for quite a few players while they decide which direction they want to take their list, what their Meta is, and how Wraiths are being used to know which of the other units to replace them. In orddify' ther to 'soliere position as Top Tier, they'd have to remain the best option or be irreplaceable. Which can happen on certain lists, but certainly not as a broad categorization.

Which is also my point. Wraiths are the Jack of all Trades. They deal with everything problematic that the necrons cannot. Even when there's nothing problematic to deal with(I mean rarely happens, but hey), they still gain a value and a presence in every game as long as you have a plan for them. Delivering a Destroyer lord in combat is quite a plan. And you can't exactly say if there's going to be anything "problematic" against you in the next game you play, so it's really hard to not include them in a list.

- Harvests/Decurion. Harvest do grant additional options to Wraiths, which are great but they are also options that already exist on other units. Now, I don't agree with the TAX mentality, but I'll point out something that I find humorous. Those that take a Harvest, especially a Double, run the minimum Scarabs with no expectation of them doing much. The Spyder is required to give the bonus, which again, already exists on units that aren't dependent on its range or even on the board. Adding those points, and picking the bonus does nothing to change those 3 attacks per model, just that they get them. When you divvy up the cost of the tax among the Wraiths, you end up making the Praetorians, Flayed Ones, and even Lychguard MORE attractive options. So in the end, the Wraiths fail to Top Tier here.

Well, you can't really expect too much from Scarabs really. Best case scenario they ruin an immobile drop pod in your deployment zone or tarpit a weak scout unit or something. They really can't do more than that no matter how many they are. If you buy more of them, you just make them easier to disappear.
-----

So where do they Top Tier? "Competetive" play is usually the best answer that someone gives as if that is supposed to change anything above. I'm going to try to keep my rant on what a joke "Competetive" play has become to a minimum, but it is a valid place where Wraiths Top Tier and for good reason. I mainly play Maelstrom missions with none of that Discard crap that is common, or I play Eternal War missions for smaller games. I occasionally play an ITC scenario when asked, and it's usually with one of the lists found online and not my own.

These events alter the Scenarios, change the mission objectives, don't play Maelstrom, include FAQs to restrict certain rules, limit the number of times a formation can be taken, reward Deathstars, and have still refused to allow Unbound. In an environment like this, the shift on which units become useful extend beyond the reasons listed above, and threats to Wraiths are reduced on non existent.

Well, certainly, when we talk about Tactics and what is strong or not, we're talking about Competitve. And competitive obviously can't mean Unbound, can it? Or do I have to also discuss this? Unbound would break the meta. A list with 9 Wraithknights would play against a list with 9 Monoliths and would table it in a turn(or versus a list with 90000 grots and they would be unable to hit/kill each other). There's different reasons why each would decide to make such a force, I would personally be actually interested in a 9 Monoliths list. Unbound would totally break the game in so many ways, it's impossible for the game to even exist. For an unbound list to have any meaning you must come to an agreement of some sort before you play and talk about it, which kind of means there's actual rules, which kills unbound. It's the single most stupid thing ever included in a Rulesbook. They just put it there to encourage beginers, it's obviously not a game mode you can discuss tactics on, as it's just bananas. There's no meaning in tactics without rules.

The ITC ruleset are modified Maelstrom missions that reduce the RNG factor as much as possible, to make it a more fair fight.

Wraiths Top Tier here because they do things that aren't normally required in Maelstrom/EW missions, where threats to them are reduced, and taking units that outperform them don't score the points needed to win.

What more? It's the same game.

So Wraiths are Top Tier, in an environment where they thrive, by players who prefer to play by a group of rules and a set of scenarios, where they feel the game is playable. A that according to the group,survey not too long ago, shows that they are the minority of the community as a whole. I deal with this a lot where I currently live, and run into these "Competetive" players often. When they step up, and start playing the missions, especially Maelstrom, the Wraiths simply don't hold up. It's too easy to either deal with them, ignore them, or throw something at them to eat through until it's too late to have an impact on the game.

So yeah, I have NO IDEA why Wraiths are considered Top Tier.

Amen on your last sentence, you really do have no idea why Wraiths are considered Top Tier.

I finally think I've got the hang of this situation. You're talking about the games you play. You go to your FLGS each week, have a group of friends (the Plagues Marine one included!) you like to hang out with and have fun. You're playing games quite often, so you think you've developped a sense for Tactics that "competitive" people are too blind to see, because they play a "different game with different missions". All this time, that you're spouting "tactics" and "strong and weak points" you meant relevant to your FLGS local meta. You meant Preatorians are better versus your friend who plays Plague Marines because he has no AP3 weapons and Prets just slaughter him, while the Wraiths just die as easily to bolter fire. Which is a fair point, I'll concede that.

However, usually, on the internet, because Local Meta is not everywhere the same, we usually talk relevant to what's generally viewed as competitive(such a dreadful word), aka the meta. But, the general meta, not your FLGS meta. That is mostly defined, like it or not, by the ITC.Are you making a point about Wraiths being subpar because you're playing versus Plague Marines and they're not helping you win?Because, that should be something that you should say before you make your point. Powerful/Weak relevant to what? Since you didn't mention anything, I assumed the "meta" (as in the ITC meta, which is the only thing we can talk about that we have in common, because local meta as I said again is different locally, which is why it's called local meta) and have responded accordingly.

Warriors are not top tier, because they have limited range, they are slow and they are not dangerous. An assault threat will make short work of them and a shooting threat will either ignore them or just outshoot them. (or just out-speed and out-score)

 Akar wrote:
Having internet issues with the storm so didn't see your comment. Going to leave the HQs there, but no, I don't really have a 3rd Top Tier unit. Not because there isn't one, but because our Dex is really good enough that it depends on what you're bringing.

I do agree with the general idea here. Each unit has a different role. Stacking up on units with the same role wouldn't benefit the list even if they were all top tier. Filling up on all the roles is more important to keep relevant in the meta. Just do it by taking as many High Tier units as possible and keep them all synergised.

Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit.

No they don't. Why would they? Exept only if you mean strictly in a phalanx with a lot of necron warriors and no other legit long range shooting. Which is very limited and quite the opposite of strong.

Ghost Ark Warriors move Destroyers and Scarabs up a bit.

Definetely not. Nothing can move the Scarabs up. Not even 9 Spyders can make Scarabs usefull.

Immortal based lists move Praetorians and Wraiths up a bit.

What do you mean Immortal based lists? Immortals are only fielded because you can take 5 of them in CADs and spare some tax points, otherwise, they contend with the scarabs for "worst unit of the codex". How can you base an entire list on the worst unit of the codex?

It's part of what makes Crons a balanced codex, and makes it difficult to really put stuff into Tiers. Even Deathmarks, Harvests, and Lychguard move up depending on outside factors like Local Meta, Casual/Tournament play, storyline/campaign, etc. I've tried to Tier the units out with all of these in mind.

Yes, obviously the Tiers move with the local meta. Which is why we assume we're talking for the general meta (aka competitive ICT play) and build tier lists (or at least as accurate as they can be) based on it.


I'm not going to go on and write more arguments about why I also disagree with your entire Tier list, since it seems that we're generally looking at this from a totally different PoV. I would like, however, to engage in further discussion with you and ask you if you think what you say should generally be true in other places of the world or if it is only limited to the people you play with.

Do you happen to play with a lot of people bringing Gladius (with 6+ razorbacks, generally more than 11 obsec vehicles and as many marines too) or Deathgaurd Warbands? How does your list specifically fair against them?

Clearly, we're talking in relevant to different Rules/Meta when we speak, so any sort of tactical discussion is, probably, fruitless. I will concede that Silver Tide can be competitive, but it really misses not being ObSec and there's armies that do it better. (I feel at least. That would be Gladius Marines like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars and Deathguard Chaos Warbands with fearless, ObSec, FNP zombies (at 4points per model)).

So, I feel like we're not particularly good at being a silver tide, due to missing ObSec (and honestly, we're less tough too) on said tide. However, there's nothing stopping people from pulling it off with extra necrony goodness.

Listen, I've played a lot of Necrons too, not as much as you, but I played my fair share. I did play back when Phase out was a real problem. Back then, it was a numbers game. Literally. I played a list with 8 Destroyers, 2 Heavy D's, 2 Monoliths, 1 Necron Lord with Resorb (1750)and all the remaining points were just warriors and I'd still get tabled a lot of times to phase out, because I didn't have enough warriors.Man, I really didn't want to field more warriors.

The thing is I did not enjoy this numbers game. I do not like it as an idea, to be forced into playing many of the same model, especially when they are the simplest, most boring just regular troops. I like scary ghosts (wraiths), I like stronger versions of Warriors with snipers (deathmarks), I like diversity. (that's not tactics, just personal preference).

So as soon as the Matt Ward codex hit and almost everything was not subpar and we could field whatever we liked, I went nuts. I'm not a huge fan of fluff, I really enjoy the minis and the games. That codex was the best thing that ever happened in 40k for me. I had countless options to field assault oriented necrons, shooty necrons, teleporting necrons, flyers necrons, Scarabfarm, Wraithwing. I went nuts on 5th edition, it was my favorite time, tried everything out, bought a ton of models, played 1000 different lists and had a lot of fun.

Where am I going with this? No clue, just wanted to mention Matt Ward was a king.

I'd like to say the following to Akar however:

You're limiting yourself and only play a single archetype of list for a long time. It's obviously getting buffed a lot, but so is everything else. (Hello powercreep)

The fact that your personality, practice, character and mind help YOU do better with only that type of list also doesn't mean the rest are useless. Obviously, playing one archetype of list for 17 years is a lot of practice, you've a gak ton of experience with warrior lists and can make it work even in places where it shouldnt. Obviously, it works better for you than other lists do, but that definetely doesn't mean it would work better for everyone else too.

I'd like to point out here, that while list building is important, giving a cheesy Eldar list to a random player does not mean he will do well. Understanding your lists strengths and weaknesses, its ability to deal with the rest of the meta lists, practicing and having a plan is just as important as "having a strong list".

Making a Tier List, I'll admit is kind of impossible, as it really matters what else is included in your list (aka, synergy). But, since we had some rough drafts, I'll say the following:
You can't really put on a Tier list based on a single archetype of army. How can warriors be top tier for non-silver tide armies?
Note that listing them at Top Tier obviously means fielding way more than the required 20 is going to provide you with a powerful advantage. And I say that this is only going to be the case if the rest of your list is also Silver Tide and it's made to support Warriors. If I go in my Destroyer Cult/Canoptek Harvest and simply add a lot of Warriors, I will not have points to make my Destroyers or Wraiths an actual threat.

I'd also like to add that 7th edition heavily nerfed Warriors and Warrior lists due to giving EVERYTHING scoring. (Heck, they don't even get ObSec in Decurions)

Now, they are not needed to score, they are going to compare normally in role efficiency versus every other unit in the codex without adding anything extra.

At 13 points per model, Marine stats, RP and Gauss, they make a SWEET troops choice. (Well, not scatbike sweet, but sweet) We're lucky the Necrons are a faction with one of the best troops available right now. I'll give you that.

However, warriors can accomplish very few roles, mostly. Basicly, there's not many things they can achieve. They are very slow, so they can't really score well (move to and from objectives). They can't shoot well. 24" rapid fire weapons are very limited and a very big number of them is needed before they become a threat to anything. A whole squad can fire at 2 Marines and they still won't die. Being able to wound and glance vehicles on 6s is nice, but, most of the times, it's just something that you say "Hey, my warriors can kill Land Raiders", but rarely happens. Someone would need to have 30 Warriors in 24" range from a rhino to half-reliably shoot it down (if it doesn't get cover from any of the squads).

Obviously, assault isn't something they do. Thanks to being tougher in Decurions they can survive assault better, but being Iniatiative 2 and not fearless means that sometimes they'll get run down TOO easily. And that gets scarier the bigger squads you make.

So, their role is "deploy in key positions, try to contest objectives, block off strategic parts of the table, try to draw fire on that crazy good tough statline and Gauss things that need Gaussing." It's kind of limited and won't deal with what most lists bring on the table. They have no real answer to kill stuff that is hard to kill (Anything with good saves) or big toughness. They have no range and they're too scared to get close because of assault reasons. But, my biggest issue with them is being slow and 24" rapidfire weapons makes them really harmless, to the point where opponents don't ever have to deal with them.

However, in the context of a silver tide army, their effectiveness at 13ppm shines, their stats are amazing, opponents are forced to deal with them and that's how you get to see those tough to kill 13ppm shine. They are definetely top Tier in a silver tide army, they're the best unit in the codex efficiency wise.

In non-silver tide armies, their really efficient toughness is hard to make use of, since people will generally ignore them unless you make some very good and strategic moves with them. Block certain pieces of terrain, Camp certain paths of the map etc, use them as LoS cover to other units, etc.

In my lists, I really see them shine inside Ghost Arks however, since it boosts their shooting significantly and they get to move a lot. That is a price that you pay though, because in order to boost my warriors value a lot, I have to field a unit of mediocre-at best efficiency (the Ghost Ark). The Ghost Ark costs 105 points and it's just too easy for a lot of armies to remove. It gives Destroyer Shots and high strength shots a target they previously did not have in a Decurion with only infantry models. However, I really like it when it draws a LOT of bullets to its Jink save, and draws attention away from Destroyers/Wraiths/Prets.

So, would the warriors be a generally top tier choice? I think not, because of their limited capabilities at dealing with anything.

Obviously, I feel like I'm talking to a person who does know what he's talking about (akar), but the coversation we're having is vague.We're talking relevant to different types of competition and trying to make a Tier List, as I said, I think is impossible, due to the complications of list building.

I'd like instead, maybe for this thread we can make several "archetypes" based on which you can make lists. Then, we would discuss its pros and cons and what each unit brings to the table for that certain archetype. Then, we'd jump to conclusions based on experience of how to deal with certain meta lists with said archetype.

EG: Silver tide: strong vs eldar scatbike spam, weak vs Deathguard comp. Warriors add this, Immortals will add advantage in case of Wraithknight (not actually, just an example). Lychguard help this list deal with Vehicles (not really, just an example) and so on.
But more analytical. I'm not sure if we can do that, or if it's too much work, but it's worth suggesting.

EDIT:

 Akar wrote:



Quickly, back to my original question, which has gotten lost. Has anyone got an answer about Warriors benefiting from Triarch Stalkers while embarked?

Why would they not benefit?



EDIT 2:

Just for the keks: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/04/22/tits-tournaments-adepticon-2013-top-16-lists-ton-pics/
Only like 12 out of 16 top armies have 2+ units of Wraiths(while lots also have 3 maxed out units). Probably because they were "bearly fieldable". And back then, there were no ITC differentiations, it's pure 40k. I don't think you can argue with that being competitive.

 Akar wrote:

 necr0n wrote:

- There's obviously a huge difference between 3+ and 3++.
- The amount of shooting that they will draw because of that fact and the shift away from the attention from the rest of your army is priceless. Because, point for point they are VERY survivable compared to just about anything. They're only instadying to Str10 and StrD.

Armies that can dish out a high volume of low AP wounds are the Wraiths Weakness, even with the buff.

The meta does not have too many of those. Which is why Wraiths are good in this meta. Also, you'll notice that just about 90% of the lists that include Wraiths, as well as mine also include a Destroyer lord (with a 2+ and a a 4+ RP) tanking for them. Prets don't get that, because that would be a waste of a Destroyer Lord, since Destroyer Lords want to be in combats that Prets don't. Or at least, I've never ever seen anyone run a Destroyer Lord with Prets.

 necr0n wrote:

In the Canoptek Harvest Formation that most use them, they will also get the RP roll on the first round at least for a ridiculous 3++ 5T 2W, 4+++ 40 point model.

Praetorians are the closest comparison to Wraiths, so I'll just use them as a simple example. In a Decurion both units are Fearless, T5, with a 3+ save. Both units will have the 4+ RP. The Wraiths win by having the 3++. The Praetorians win by keeping their 4+ RP, and they're not tethered to anything to get that. It's an fair trade.

First of all, Praetorians should not by any means be compared with Wraiths. Tactically, their roles are very different. You're comparing a high damage, glass canon unit to a tough, less killy unit. Praetorians do not want to get in Assault with almost anything that the Wraiths do. Initiative 2 and no invulnerable saves is quite a deadly combination. Prets are good at making soft stuff disappear. Wraiths might get stuck in combat with soft stuff for ages if there's no destroyer lord to help them.

However, Prets can't really get in combat with MC's, vehicles, walkers, titans, GC's, deathstars or even any assault oriented units. That's what Wraiths do and they do it well.

Also, how is 4+ RP equal to two wounds, 3++ (and a situational 4+ RP) ?

 necr0n wrote:

How does paying ~9 points for 3 whip coils (for a whooping 12 str 6 rending attacks at initiative 5, make Praetorians or Lychguard more attractive? Are 9 points too much? Do the Preatorians get anything to help them survive before they strike at Initiative 2?

I'll admit after reading the above, this needs some explaining.

I'll use Praetorians in this example, but the same approach applies to Lychguard/Flayed Ones.

A full unit of 6 Wraiths (strip down) is 240 Points. It's 18(24) Attacks.
8 Praetorians is 224 points. It's 16(24) Attacks,+8 Shots. *Not reliant on Rending.

Add Whip Coils to all of them for 258pts, and you get 18(24) Attacks.
9 Praetorians is 252 points. For 18(26)pts, +9 Shots.

Take a Harvest (min +110 Pts). Wraiths get 18(24) Attacks.
Now you're up to a min Judicator of 10 Praetorians for 20(30) Attacks, +10 Shots.
The Stalker is going to improve those attacks, and benefit the rest of the army. Harvest won't.

As I said again, attacks are not the Wraiths' selling point. Obviously the glass-cannon prets are killier.That's not something you need to prove, it's common knowledge.

Also, Triarch Stalkers are so easy to kill it's almost laughable. More than 50% of the people play Marine and friend with melta drop pods and Grav spam. Triarch stalker is never surviving turn 2 or more.

And to add to whip coils conversation. If I could buy Whip Coils for my prets, I'd buy them even if it was more than double the price.

Then you make these statements.

 necr0n wrote:

- No, attacks is definetely not the Wraiths' selling point. Their speed and durability is.
- Whip Coils just got FAQ'ed and keep you on initiative 5 even when charging through terrain. I still, usually, stick to a maximum of 3 per unit, but they're hardly a waste of points.

So the Wraiths attacks aren't their selling point, but you're still going to make sure they get them? It's contradictory, but I'll agree that coils are a great use of filler points.

Attacks are not their selling point means that they are not, as I already explained, considered strong due to killing stuff reliably. Their attacks are mediocre for their points cost. Because, point for point, they are very fast and durable. And that's why they shine. However, I'm not going to lose all their attacks and just let them hover, just because it's not their main selling point. What are you trying to imply? Warriors' shooting is not their main selling point, maybe drop their guns?

If we can't share our differing opinions in a Tactica Thread, so that those looking for information on those units can find it, then what is it's purpose? I don't normally Tier units but was asked how I would. I enjoyed the exercise, and explained why. The good responses have been 'Interesting, why do you think that?'. This not only encourages discussion, but is why I subscribe to 'Tactica' threads. Nobody wins when it degrades into 'Why you're wrong', especially when the statement end up there.

So, you can have differing opinions, but I cannot.Or do I not have the right to defend my opinion? You only liked the responses that agreed with you, but actually having counter-arguments is something counter productive. I don't get this.

 necr0n wrote:
-Do you happen to play with a lot of people bringing Gladius (with 6+ razorbacks, generally more than 11 obsec vehicles and as many marines too) or Deathguard Warbands? How does your list specifically fair against them?

I will concede that Silver Tide can be competitive, but it really misses not being ObSec and there's armies that do it better. (I feel at least. That would be Gladius Marines like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars and Deathguard Chaos Warbands with fearless, ObSec, FNP zombies (at 4points per model)).

Quite often, and I do decent against them. A bit off Topic, but a large part of this is due to the fact that I play straight Maelstrom, and sit in the camp that it's the BEST thing to happen to 40k. My last game went 13/11 so it was close, but he also only had 1 Thunderfire cannon, 1/2 a Dev Squad and 2 Techmarines left on the board. A recent 2.9k Relic game vs. SW with all the Wulfen/TWolf cav goodness, ended in a Draw. I was Wraithless, still had well over 1/2 my army. He only had 1 wound clutching onto the relic at the end of Turn 6, and a lone Scout that we both left alone for the story. (He lost all of his Brothers to the first volley of Tomb Blades, but survived the 10 Tesla Immortals and 20 Warrior shots after that. I let him live to witness the horror!!)

I did not ask for battle reports. Merely a tactic display of how you approach these kinds of games. For example how do you deal with the Deathguard Chaos warband with zombies. They outnumber you, they are all scoring, they all have FNP and fearless, so how do you win? They do the "sit on objectives" just far better than you. What is your gameplan, what do you focus?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 necr0n wrote:

- They were a Necron staple in any list and the very well known "wraithwing" with 18 Wraiths
- So, our answer to everything is an all rounder very fast, terrain-ignoring, scoring, fearless, tough to kill tarpitter.
- Wraiths are the only unit that provides somewhat of an answer to quite some of those threats. Beasts with 12" movement and fleet that ignore terrain are amazingly easy to navigate on enemy stormsurges.
- Wraiths are absolutely the finest and only answer our codex can bring in any context or shape or form.
- Scarabs are honestly gak. Probably one of the worst units in the codex.
- Nothing can move the Scarabs up. Not even 9 Spyders can make Scarabs useful.
- Well, you can't really expect too much from Scarabs really.
- This is where we disagree. It's impossible to not rely on tarpit.
- Wraiths are the Jack of all Trades. They deal with everything problematic that the necrons cannot.
- (Akar: Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit)No they don't. Why would they?
- What do you mean Immortal based lists? Immortals are only fielded because you can take 5 of them in CADs...
- You can't really put on a Tier list based on a single archetype of army.
- Obviously, assault isn't something they do.
- Would the warriors be a generally top tier choice? I think not, because of their limited capabilities at dealing with anything.

ALL of this.

 necr0n wrote:

-You're limiting yourself and only play a single archetype of list for a long time. It's obviously getting buffed a lot, but so is everything else.

Then you go with this? I'm referencing things that I've run, and you choose to rationalize them off, then state that I'm down to a single Archetype list? Interesting.

You never asked if I ran 'Wraithwing'. I have. You never asked if I've run a 'Wraithstar'. I have. You never asked what my experience with Ghost Arks is, when I've seen enough before selling them to give advice. You've never asked if I've ever played or tried anything other than the 'Silver Tide' archetype. I have. I've seen the Tarpit units actually prevent me from tabling my opponent because they were the only unit left in combat, and wouldn't die. I've seen my opponent feed Wraiths 2 units of generic Marines to protect what they were going after, only to end up getting out of combat right before the game ended, while forcing the rest of my force to deal with the bigger threat. Here I learned that it's not only possible, but quite common that I do have an answer to these threats, and don't need Wraiths in any of it's inclusions to deal with the threats that I'm constantly being told they can't deal with.

I never said you didn't try out lists or anything. I just said you're sticking with a single Archetype. Obviously, if you've been stopped by your own tarpitters to table your opponent you played them wrong. Why would you tarpit something that you can otherwise kill?

I've played an Immortal based list with 50 Immortals (30G/20T) that leaves you with enough points to have an HQ of your choice and fit at 1000 points. This leaves you with plenty of points to fill it with Destroyers and Wraiths which all become Top Tier in this setup. Anti-Meq tactics work well enough against it. I'm fine tuning (ie past theorycrafting) a list that has my opponents absolutely hating Scarabs. I've run a ~100 man CAD with Zahndrekh/Szeras (or both) Even had enough points left over to take non-commital Wraiths to handle anything that managed to get too close.

NONE of this makes me any more right than you are right. None of this proves you in any way, shape or form that Wraiths aren't the best answer. I've never intended to give the impression that Wraiths are bad or that they're wrong. All I've questioned is why people think that they're a Top Tier, Auto-include, answer to everything, and hoping for some answers I'm not here to prove why they're bad when I already know they're not. Ie, using a Tactica Thread for the actual tactics. I KNOW they're popular and I'm looking for something that I'm maybe missing. Something that I can actually TAKE to a game and observe, and find out why I would take them over another unit.

What. You actually did give the impression that Wraiths are bad. Noone actually said they are "auto-include, answer to everything", that's just you again. People, including myself have suggested that Wraiths are a Top Tier choice. They are fielded for very specific reasons and they solve some problems that I don't think other units of the same codex would solve efficiently. You wrote word for word " They needed the buff to be fieldable, and they only barely make the cut."

EDIT: After seeing how long this has gotten, I'm going back off before I cross anymore into 'Warning' Territory. You won't see much more on this from me. I respect your views, but lets get this back on the track before it completely derails.

I'm not going to abandon a discussion we're having simply because you think said discussion is derailing. It's not, it's an on-going discussion on a claim that you made that Wraiths are borderline fieldable. I'm trying to invalidate all your arguments to support my claim, that they are indeed a Top Tier choice, since they are both multi-role (which is invaluable in most games, especially in this edition where there's huge differences/requirements from army to army) and probably top in the codex at all of their roles. (sucking bullets, tarpit, assault delivery system for Destroyer Lords and MC/GC/SHV hunting)

torblind wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
There is a lot here to unpack,

First let me start with an observation, harvest and lych stars are both very common in top placing Necron armies, if wraiths and lychguard are as bad as you say why would that be the case? You could blame it on bias but bias rarely makes it into the winners circle.
[...]

Guys coming in late: Akar made a (correct) point about this being a discussion on "40k tactics", not "ITC tactics" (it having a modified ruleset), which on its own surely is an interesting topic, for another thread.

(If it wasn't for the fact that everybody seems to agree on wraiths, wraiths, wraiths).

Read his posts with that in mind.

ITC is 40k, it's not a different game. This is a Tactics thread and as a Tactics thread, we're supposed to discuss competitive games, which mostly happen in the environment of tournaments. All the competitive games and GTs run the ITC format. Do you just want to ignore every legit Tournament arround and talk about something different? There's also very few differences Tactics wise and the lists that do well in ITC also do well in Rulesbook missions. The only thing the ITC does is limit the list building cheese to SOME degree and remove some RNG from the missions.

Instead, what do you suggest we talk about? One of my LGS meta is litteraly only MEQ/TEQ. They've been playing DA/Templars/BA without too much shooting every since 3rd edition and won't change it since(it's gone to an extend where even when new people start armies at this store, everyone arround tells them what's "op" so they also buy assault focused stuff. Like, for christ sake, people think the eldar Avatar is OP). They think anything capable of CC is OP (Like TWC, Wraiths, Mephiston, Terminators, etc). Do you want me to talk relevant to my meta? Litteraly fielding 2 Doomsday Arks is enough to reliably table 90% of the lists someone would face in there. I can't really come here and claim that Doomsday Arks are Top Tier because I have internet and I can move to see what other people play with. So, instead I have to focus my attention on what is generally considered as "meta". What people all arround the world play. That would have to be ITC, merely because it's so broadly accepted. Besides everything else, when there's lists that win GT's people are bound to copy them and the meta spreads. So, why is it off-topic to talk ITC? Like it or not, ITC is competitive play. That's not an opinion. It's not up for discussion. If it's broken or not is up for discussion, surely. If you like it or not? Also discussion. But, ITC is the meta, even if you think it's broken, at least because it is so broadly accepted.

Also there are depths to his arguments that deserve more than that kind of shallow generalization.

There is actually not nearly enough depth as implied to his arguments. He's comparing units with different tactical roles in a non-defined environment. It's not ITC meta, but we don't know what it is, it's a secret.
To explain myself: Instead of taking two similar units and see how they would fair against a common opponent you expect to face, he's denying ITC meta and lists so there's no background and he's also comparing units with completely different roles. The apples and oranges metaphor would suit perfectly here.

torblind wrote:

So...

Guy1 says: [Tons of text]... btw this PoV applies to a non-tournament/ITC setting... [and then another ton of text]

Guy2 says: Hey, that PoV doesn't hold up in a tournament/ITC-setting.

Pointing out the obvious here was the only right thing to do. (Guy2 missed that one crucial statement in all that text)

I never said that it doesn't hold up in tournament/ITC setting. I disagree with what he wrote on all possible levels. Rulesbook missions too, fluffy list games and even unbound.
I think Guy 3 missed the entire meaning of my post and has to read it again.

Please go on and discuss whatever you want, wherever you like, but pulling in other people's statements on other topics is bad for you. Not to mention that innocent bystanders like me get annoyed enough by it to make posts like this.

I don't get this. I really, actually, don't understand what you were annoyed by. Really honestly and no sarcasm or irony intended. I quoted your text to respond it. You wrote "hey guys, this is a tactics thread for 40k, let's talk 40k and not ITC" and I made a post where I quoted you and answered to you that I believe ITC/40k is not different. It was a direct answer to the direct proposal you made. Please explain how I am annoying and I'll try to fix it. I'm only trying to discuss tactics politely and in an informative manner.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The DftS made it so that you hit Jetbikes at normal BS right?

Its still a 2 shot lascannon, not sure if its worth it. Cursed earth gives them 3++(2++ for Magnus) re-roll 1s and honestly I don't think its enough to take down Magnus, maybe a DP.

It's 3-shot strength D. You're probably talking about the Sentry Pylon, while I think everyone else should be talking about the Gauss Pylon.

Or probably not. Two str9 shots wouldn't justify the Gauss Sentry Pylon, I believe.

I don't think we should go for Anti-Air. That's just not something we do well. It seems impossible for any kind of shooting to take down Magnus, let alone shooting that's available to Necrons. Tesla was just nerfed too much. ( :( )

Instead focus on playing the objectives as much as possible. Blink for objectives, get some more boots on the ground, possibly. I'd guess Ghost Arks become more valuable as they are harder to kill by demons, I think. D shots would be required and our godly vehicles can jink that.

In this new meta of Cabalstar, Magnus, flying demons, Fateweaver etc. I think Decurion is no longer competitive. The lists I've been tinkering with for the past month or so have been mostly double CAD.
Double CAD is like a single CAD, exept 2 HQs and 4 Troops are required. The whole reason I went CAD was because of the Troops, so I don't see 4 Troops as a tax and the 2 HQ's are the whole reason I went for 2 CADs instead of one. ( I need 3 or 4 HQ's) So, I'm going for tax-free, ObSec troops and I'm only losing 4+ RP, which is not something I care about, because I'm neither fielding a Destroyer Cult or a Judicator Battalion and therefore, there's no elite troops losing their survivability. To further boost that, my troops will be mostly riding vehicles or benefit from 4+ RP from Crypteks.

Things I really like in CADcrons and, therefore, Double-CADcrons:

-Ghost Arks
-Wraiths
-Destroyer Lord Wraithstar
-Lychstar with Orikan
-Nightscythes with either MSU ObSec troops or tactical precision removal like Prets.
-Warrior blobs with Crypteks(like Szeras), even better when supported by Ghost Arks

Things I kinda like in CADcrons and, therefore, Double-CADcrons:
-All vehicles. (over infantry) This is the list to go vehicle heavy and upset some lists not ready to deal with 10+ AV13 vehicles.
-Tomb Blades
-Deathmarks
-Possibly some fortification, although I haven't really looked at any, never really bothered with it.

Without further ado, here's a list as an example. It's a Lychstar, again, as I really like the models and put a lot of work painting them, but I don't think it's the most competitive:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/715937.page#9168068



EDIT: That would be an example of an adjusted Silver tide: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/715939.page#9168122

Lychguard and Wraiths are different units, with different capabilities and roles. Especially so, the Warscythe ones. The Lychguard are a slow unit, that's very hard to make use of. Getting the Warscythe Lychguard to assault something that's actually scary means that 1) they won't die in shooting, even though they lack invulnerable saves. 2) they will somehow manage to assault that "scary something", even though they have a 6" movement. "Scary something" will have to stay still and not avoid them.
Honestly, those are pretty hard to pull off.Maybe if they could get Ghost Arks?

The sword and board lychguard are quite similar to the Wraiths, as to the "they are really tough, they carry HQ's that kill and they have a realistic plan to assault through Wraiths' speed and Lychguard Veil of Darkness". However, they still differ a lot.

The Wraithstar is a fast unit you can either break to tarpit with wraiths and assault another target with the Destroyer Lord after he's delivered and you mostly get to chose your assaults thanks to being really fast and ignoring terrain. You can chase what you want, put pressure on flanks etc.

The Lychstar is a unit that is way less efficient point for point compared to what it's going to do on the tabletop. They get their efficiency in presence. It has to start from a really aggressive deployment, where you threaten either the center of the board or a certain flank/objective. This deployment will lead to a certain answer from your opponent most probably. After that, you get to either 1) Move/Run first turn to keep that push there or 2) Veil turn one if there's a threat you're wanting to neutralise. That pesky stormsurge, that Grav heavy unit. You Deepstrike turn one close to a threat you're wanting to neutralise and you force it to move or get assaulted. Forcing that movement is quite valuable on its own, even though you might not get the assault on it. People don't really like shooting the Lychstar unit due to it being relatively easy to avoid, but deploying it, redeploying it and piloting it as much as possible to block certain terrain pieces/table quarters/flanks is actually just as usefull. Put the Lychguard in front of your opponent's mechline and watch it either take a very different route/have to make a circle arround a building/losing the Maelstrom objectives or be forced to deal with it. If they get in assault, they're not usually getting tarpitted. A voidreaper, a warscythe minimum and Orikan's staff + the Ap3 swords should make sure you kill what people think they can tarpit you with. Also, deploying very aggressive and chosing to move/run first turn and keeping your Veil if you know you're getting tarpitted is quite a good idea. They're like a piece of terrain with a large footprint that you get to move arround the table. Some games, I'll admit they won't force much or will feel really useless. The Wraiths don't really have that, they do something almost every game, reliably.If lychguard had some shooting, even minimal, even Gauss Flayers, this would be a totally different story.

Here I'd like to give a tip about Lychguard. Deepstrike them on key points of terrain usage/road blocking if possible. Run the same turn they deepstrike to shift them from a circle formation to a line formation so you can take up as much space between two places and block the passage, for max efficiency. At the very least they'll draw fire. If they draw fire, they're becoming efficient, since the points you paid for them are way less than the points of fire they can take. Basicly, draw as much fire as possible by moving them smart. Getting an assault or two is a nice bonus.

EDIT: Sometimes, the fact that opponents are so keen to ignore them will work for you perfectly as they can take up strategic spots and claim objectives for free. Obviously, there's no such thing as "don't shoot that unit no matter what". Sometimes, it's the only answer.

- ITC related post -

So, seeing as I've made more than 60 lists this past few months and not being satisfied with any of it, I've come to the conclusion there's absolutely no top list in the current meta Necrons can win against.

All top lists are not invincible in any way. One can beat the other and that's the whole point. There's good and bad match ups. One has to rely on getting matched as much as possible (luck factor) in a tournament with his good matchups and minimise points loss in bad matchups.

In that mind, I've tried making lists that are hard counters to certain meta-lists, but it's impossible in the Necron Codex. We just lack the shooting/force. We can't shoot Flying Demons and we can't outscore them on the board, as we have no anti-psychic and we're not fast or ObSec.

We can't shoot the abundant ammounts of things Gladius/Lion's Blade brings on the table and, obviously, can't outscore the 22+ ObSec units he brings on the table.

We can't obviously outshoot the eldar or taudar or even TAU. Problem is, they have enough shooting to take out anything that's dangerous, like Destroyers or Wraiths and we don't have something to fight back with.

Basicly, we don't have enough Anti-tank to be able to just upset tank-heavy matchups like Knights. We don't have enough anti-infantry to upset infantry heavy matchups. We don't have anti-air to deal with anything flying. We don't have anti-psychic to deal with anything casting spells (summoning etc). We don't have enough assault (or even if we have assault, we don't have good enough means to make it survive enemy shooting good enough and make it to assault). We can't create good enough ObSec lists (no matter how hard you try, Gladius is still better at it) We're mediocre at best on every possible level. That's good for TAC, FLGS level play, especially for beginners, it's a great starting army. There's no real strength and no real weakness.

But, looking at the last few ITC tournaments, most include either 0 or 1-2 necrons players in a total of 80+ players. We're the rarest army, even more so than BA/Sisters/DE etc, and we don't do well. (generally, not getting placed under top 15) The few Necron players that have done well, including that very rare Fennel success have been with a Pylonstar. The Pylonstar is exactly what I've been saying.It has strengths and weaknesses. If placed with more good matchups that bad, it can do well in a tournament setting. But, I remember reading somewhere that Fennel, after his success said it's hardcountered by anything Flying-demon related and an auto-loss. That paired with the fact that flying demons is statistically the most played army of the last tournaments makes the Pylonstar less and less attractive.

So, with that in mind, and because I've made, honestly, far too many lists in this month that have left me unsatisfied, I want to hear your success stories. What's your list, champion? What makes it strong? What matchups do you like the most and what tactics do you like to use versus said winning matchups?

LVO is going to take place this weekend, so we're going to see how Necrons do over there, but before that, I'd like to hear your success stories, guys!

My prediction would be no Necrons in top 8, at all. But, this conversation kind of got side-tracked! I want to hear about your lists and success stories! Bump!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Praetorians are Fearless so they can help tie up Wraithknights for a turn if that's truly an issue. They're surprisingly one of our better MC counters.

Getting a 140 point unit murdered by a 300 point unit in a single turn is not exactly my idea of effectiveness. It's not tying it up, if it's 1 round. They're one of the usefull units you don't care about dying. I'd rather tie him up with scarabs, or even warriors.(obviously Wraiths)

I've been wondering for a while. Everybody seems to think that Riptide Wing is possibly one of the best formations in the game. TAU are almost the only Convinient Ally we have. Most people predict "Random Army + Riptide wing" is going to reach top tables at LVO. I've seen EVERY list in the world, even space wolves allied with the Riptide Wing. How come we don't use Riptide wings? They're just as survivable as we are, so it's good saturation and it's not like they're imbalancing the Threat aggro, due to their toughness being equal to that of Necrons. They bring shooting that we really lack. So, anybody tried doing Necrons + Riptide Wing? I know I would have done it, but I can't find myself 3 Riptides and I don't want to invest in Riptides without actually having TAU to make a legit army. Any experience regarding this?

There are actually a few necron players, I imagined there'd be none, but it's a 400+ people event. I got my hands on every list and there's a lot of interesting ones. A lot of people seem to like to pair the Helldrake formation with 2 Helldrakes with Necrons. (I guess you could say it pairs with Anrakyr too)

Anyway, I'm only going to post Baxter's list for now, since he's the most famous necron player I guess, the veteran and he did very well in round two, tabling a very strong War Convo+knight list.

Baxter's "Nightscythes/Tomb Blades/Pylonstar" ----------- Record: (L/W/L/L/W/W)

It's 2 Pylons instead of 3 and there's also no Wraith unit. There's also 2 Flyers with msu Immortal squads and a ton of Tomb Blades. I really like it.

I'll post more lists if you want to.


EDIT: Fennell is playing as well, the same list he had in Goldensprue GT.

col_impact wrote:
Sure, keep posting lists.

Is Alex Fennel in attendance? What's he playing?

Sorry, my edit was too late. He is playing the same list he played in Golden Sprue cup GT (Pylonstar). There's 14 Necron Players in 406~ players and I'm trying to follow them all. Surprisingly, only 3 of them are playing Pylon Star and you already know the 2. There's some really interesting and different lists, however, and I'll get to posting them very soon.


EDIT: So far, in the first two rounds there's 4 Necrons who managed to pull out ahead. Two very standard pylonstars, 1 very standard Dakkadakka-like Judicator Battaltion-Dcult-Decurion and an amazingly tasteful list that I do not understand, because I haven't seen it play.However, it's stomped 1 Deathguard chaos warband with 60~ zombies and havocs and general good stuff and an amazingly competitive DA Lions Blade with a full company, a scout squad aux and RW strike force with Dark shroud for cover saves and a ton of grav guns on bikes. More on that in a later post for more suspense, after Round 3 is over!

Eddi Macmichael's Spyder list just barely lost 5-6 to a Space Marine/Inquisition/Sisters list, but is still doing well. His list follows:
Eddi Macmichael's "Spyderfarm/Scarabdeathstar" ---------- Record: (W/W/L/L/L/L)


No clue how it works.

UPDATE: In case this was not obvious, this is the "different" list that has crushed the DG and DA Lion's Blade.

EDIT: The only Necron so far with 3 wins is Mike Benton with a Pylonstar that's very similar to Fennell's list. But, all that is very limited to 3 games, as tomorrow there's gonna be another 3, and then the final tables too. So, good luck to the fellow Necrons who send their legions in Las Vegas, we root for you.

Tomorrow, I'm going to post some more lists! Too tired now, due to Americans having LVO in the worst possible time for us europeans!

 skoffs wrote:
Well, as far as the Pylon-star itself's actual performance, I wonder how necessary the third Pylon is to the combo.
If it's still able to perform well in that first alpha strike that would free up a bunch of points that could help flesh out the rest of your list (eg. more Tomb Blades).

Baxter has generally done well in other tournaments, as well. This time luck was not on his side with matchups, so he's got two losses, so far. But, I believe he can really do better now. Round 4 is coming up and we'll see how things go.

A Necron list that's rocking 2 wins already and is quite different as well (although, might be called cheesy):

Nathan Hovis' "Decurion/Double Harvest/Riptide Wing" ------------- Record: (W/L/W/L/L/L)


Which answers my previous question about allying Riptide Wing to Necrons, I guess!

Irrumare wrote:
What, exactly, is a Pylonstar? Obviously 2-3 pylons... What else, and why/how does one use it? Something to give it Relentless?

Anrakyr gives it relentless while it includes several HQ's too boost its survivability (through Res orbs, saves, solar staffs etc) and HQ's too boost its mobility (through Veil of Darkness). There's also HQ's for counter assualt with warscythes and there's also, usually, a destroyer lord for "Prefered Enemy".

-------------------------------------------------------------

Update on Round 4: The Necrons seem to be falling off. There's not many victories. There are still however two Necron players with 3 out of 4 wins (and a loss). That's Benton's standard Pylonstar list and Hymperys' standard Battalion/D.cult Decurion. Fennell is slightly behind with 2 Wins, 1 Draw and 1 loss. Benton's facing a skitari list up next, Humpherys is taking on Eldar Corsairs and Fennell is going against Eldar. Round 5 is starting any time now!


Here's a list that's different and did decently, that I lost track of after Round 3: (Had Win-Loss-Win)

Stein's "CAD/VoidShield/Helldrakes" -------------------- Record: (W/L/W/--/--/--)


EDIT: All 3 of our top Necron players won their Round 5! Our best player (points wise) is currently Humpherys tied for #29 spot! He's playing next game versus a standard Taudar list (scat bikes, farseers, WK, riptide wing, warp hunters)
Fennell is up against a Two riptide wing + 30 warpsiders list. (Just those formations, no hqs, troops etc) Seems like a really good matchup.
Benton's Pylonstar is, unfortunately, facing a Demons list.

Let's see if they can make the top tables! Good luck to our fellow Necrons!

Final LVO Necron update:

Benton and Humpherys lost their Round 6 games while Fennell won his. Turns out, Fennell does not let the Necrons down and he's, for one more time, the highest placing Necron. He was arround ~38th place (one loss away from top 8, if he just didn't get matched with that flying demon list!). Well done to all the Necrons who brought their very creative lists and, honestly, did very well. When I get up tomorrow morning, I'll upload one more very interesting list.

Skoffs, I don't have VoDs of those matches or anything, there was two twitch streams(FrontlineGaming_TV and Warhammer chanell) streaming the event, but only one game, in round 2 included Necrons. And it was Baxter's Pylonstar list that tabled the War Convocation. Honestly, a brilliant game, Baxter is a great player. Can't wait to see how the rest of the event pans out,

Just for the record top 8 armies are:
Eldar Corsairs, 2 Demons, Renegades, Tau, War Convocation, Eldar, DA.
Those are not in order

Requizen wrote:
On the one hand, it's nice to see a mix of armies on the top tables. On the other, it sucks that the meta is so brutal that other armies just have no shot at making it there in the first place.

It's never been really different. Exept, big GT's now, instead of have 1-2-3 armies at the top tables now have more diversity. The meta is very diverse, there's a lot of lists that can reach top potential, it just so happens that Necrons isn't one of them. I'm happy with the way Meta is right now. I'm a little happy that Necrons are not top level, for the first time, since Matt Ward codex, because people have been salty playing versus Necrons, to the point where just playing Necrons was considered a dick move for some reason, even though it's my main army for a long, long time. There's a lot of lists that are really competitive, so if you want to compete in the highest of levels, you can definetely pick an army you like and go for it.Tournament winning usually involves not playing the same list, so just playing something different would be acceptable, I guess. However, there's also being #1 Necron, etc. which is a win and an honor on its own. Necrons, on the other hand are still not "weak". Outside of certain hardcore meta lists, they can compete. Besides that, I find the codex very interesting. It gives a lot of choices to build your necrons army in many ways and still be effective. Destroyers are good, Prets are good, Wraiths are good, Living Tomb formation is good, Flayed ones are good, Wraiths are good, Harvests are good, honestly you can make anything and do decently. We're not a -one list- army.

My biggest issue with the Necron codex and the Necron Decurion, specifically, is the Overlord requirement for both the Royal Court and the Reclamation Legion.If it somehow gets changed to being able to field ANY HQ instead of an overlord, it'd make Necron lists way more efficient. Our best shenanigans come from our named characters, our crypteks, our lords and artifacts. Most of the times I'm making a Decurion, the overlord feels like a huge tax. He's very hard to make use of, since he's a deep point investment with any wargear and he's not doing what he wants (combat) unless if you're also running a lychstar. In any lychstar, Overlords are also not required, since Obyron can do the job more effectively also rocking WS 6 and a 2+ save for less points than a naked Overlord with WS, VoD. If I'm not running a lychstar, I can't find any use for my Overlord from Rec.Legion. (or a points efficent one, that I like) I'd love it if it was possible for a Cryptek to drive my Legions into combat, both because I like them in-game more and because they're my favorite HQ's (and possibly favorite units, fluff-wise). In 5th edition I almost always played with full Courts, my favorite named character is Orikan and I've got a ton of them built and painted and waiting to be fielded!

The Rec.Legion overlord requirement and, especially, the Royal Court Overlord requirement, means that if you want to have a Decurion with any cryptek/lord whatsoever, you must at least have 2 Overlords. And I need Crypteks/Lords, but can't really use 2 overlords in any efficient way, which makes CAD almost the only choice if you want to field Crypteks/Lords. (exept if you can make use of the 1 overlord of the Court, like Pylonstar can use Anrakyr), in which case CAD+Royal Court will work too.

Decurion + CAD, however is way harder, because you have minimum two warrior units, 1 Immortal unit + 2 Troops and that's pretty heavy. Honestly, it'd be great if we could get an Allied Detachment of Necrons, but they're the damn same faction. So, my hands are really tied when it comes to list building and looking for a way to utilise my overlords. Latest invention of mine was giving my Rec.Legion OL a Staff of Light (free), a Veil of darkness and MSS (I had 10 points leftovers, and the 3D6 fear can help my unit survive one turn of assault, before i can teleport out of it with Veil) and putting him in an MSU unit of Immortals in a Nightscythe for Objective hunting, or something similar. But, I feel like it's too many points for an absolute gimmick of a unit with no real purpose or efficiency.

EDIT:
Here's the last list I'll share with you from this year's LVO.

Joseph Duca's "Standard Decurion/Renegade Knight" --------- Record: (L/W/L/W/W/W)


Which is a little odd, because it looks like his list is 1846 points, so he has room to include 1 Whip coil, but he chose not to. Then again, he did well with it! So, congrats!


EDIT 2: Edited all lists for better format and also noted their W/L record.


EDIT 3: All those new lists from the LVO inspired me to make a very weird list, that I'll play either this or the next week. If anybody wants to check it out or leave a comment it's here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/716863.page#9186014 .

Draco765 wrote:
With LVO over with, and based on how the Necron lists ended up being placed does this mean Pylon Star is no longer the way to go?

Is there something new we can put together that will get a higher placing in a major event now that people know how to deal with our new deathstar?

Currently, it's the strongest list we can go by. It's a very good list versus most armies. It's surprisingly good versus Grav-bikes/centurion etc. It's REALLY good versus Full Companies, it's very good versus Scatbike/Warpspiders, it's good versus tau suits/stealthsuits/riptides possible/piranhas and it's also decent versus other lists like War Con etc. It's not an auto-win, by any means, I'm just saying if you play better, you'll probably win.

The only problem is there's a lot of demon/CSM players out there and a lot of people who are not demons/CSM and still use demons. Those people are trully impossible to win against with a Pylonstar. Doesn't matter if you're the better player or if it's the opponent's first game, this game is going to be an uphill battle. It's very rough to win, and because there's so many people playing those lists, it's very hard to get a "perfect" win ration in a tournament environment.(statistically, you're bound to play some demons, if you're going to play 6+ games) It's not like people "learnt" how to deal with our deathstar, it's merely that it's fallen out of meta because the new demons are taking a gak on it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said, I'd like to ask people who've run Zahndrekh in their lists. How do you use Zahnrekh? What Traits do you like the most? What units do you think he benefits most? What do you like about him?

 skoffs wrote:
So the best way Necrons can take on Daemons is... to not use Necrons.
Awesome.
:/

Necrons don't have either the Anti-Air or anti-psychic to bring them down. Another way to battle them is just outnumber them on the table and outscore them. We don't have many/tough/free ObSec units either. (Although, obviously, it's not as bad of a matchup with a Decurion or something like that, compared to the slaughtering of the pylonstar)

In other words, Necrons can't really deal with Demons, very easily. But, D.Eldar can't deal too much with TAU, Tyranids can't deal with D.Eldar, etc. etc.
I'm going to also say, that anything mentioned in the form of allies (like the riptide wing or the helldrake terrorpack) is not an answer to any demon list. It really is not. Otherwise TAU/Taudar/Eldar would be effective against it. No, a single riptide wing's shooting is absolutely zero when talking flying demons. Not to mention the laughable Helldrakes (that you mentioned as Anti-Air, so no baleflamers????). Ork Traktor guns?? Ork Traktor guns are going to bring down what? They're BS3 and 1 shot. 5 of them are more than 150 points. They're going to do absolutely nothing to flying demons. You can't include enough to actually threaten the demons and the more you include, the more useless the entire Orks detachment becomes versus absolutely every other list. Generally, Necrons can't deal with that list by killing it, or something like that. Even with all the allies in the world (That's quite proven, seeing how any other list is incapable of actually shooting the demons dead, even if it doesn't include the Necrons terrible shooting). If you can outmaneuvre or outscore them with some luck, using a lot of tough necrons, that's good. Otherwise, it's not a list you can build to counter. That's what this list does, it breaks the meta. Nothing can deal with it at this point with straight Dakka.

If there's something you should do with your lists to be able to play against demons is ignore better, buy even more useless weapons, bring even more tough models and necron shanenigans (VoD'S) etc. Demons can't remove Necrons, effectively.

1) Ork Tractor Guns are great against flyer lists since every wound is almost a guaranteed grounding. Obviously they are a specialized silver bullet and points spent are wasted points against non-flying lists (which I mention).

I'd argue that even if you managed to ground something, it'd still be impossible to kill.(Magnus is rolling 2++ with rerolls and the DP's got 4++) There's not enough shooting in Necrons' arsenal to remove big guys. The only real benefit would be you could tarpit. But, honestly, if an opponent with Magnus sees you're running 15 Trakktor Kanons he's going to be really weary of your Wraiths' position and either take them out with other units or just avoid them. Even grounded, Demons can move a lot and they're just as dangerous, even more flexible with movement.

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

This has already been answered. Although, arguably, even if they could, their damage would be at best laughable. I'd rather not shoot them to save my opponent the sheer satisfaction of making fun of me.

3) Riptides with HBC and skyfire are a superb AA platform and solid overall against every single list in 40k.

They are a superb AA platform, noone argues that. They're not enough to kill demons, that's what I'm saying. Plus, most people would roll Ion Cannons without Markerlight support (as in a riptide wing outside TAU). Even if you did run 3 HBC, they'd still not be able to kill Magnus and his friends. What I'm saying is, just because they have skyfire (which means they can hit them), doesn't also mean that they can kill them.

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

This has already been answered.

Necron Lord cannot have 2 artefacts (Solar staff & Veil of Darkness)

This list does not include any Decurion. For Decurion you need a Reclamation Legion + an Aux Formation. You have no Aux Formation.

There's no point in throwing..about 1000? points in a unit that has 0 offensive capabilities and can get tarpitted by anything for an eternity. If your enemies ignore it, it's at best 24" 20 strength 4 ap5 shots. If your enemies just throw a marine unit in assault, it's gone for the entire game. If your enemies throw something scary (in assault) like another deathstar or just anything that's capable, your unit cannot be fearless forever, they will just be eaten. I'm all for creative deathstars, but yours seems to be a deathstar that's immune to shooting but is no real threat. No shooting threat or assault threat. It can be ignored, tarpitted or even killed in assault. Obviously the best answer to the 1k points you spent on buffing 20 warriors is ignoring said unit, clearing the rest of your list and just eating 20 gauss shots per turn. With 6" movement, that probably won't be too hard.

Klowny wrote:
with the GA's, 20 man blob is 40 shots,
2x GA with 10 warriors is 30 shots a piece, a stalker in the back.
the 20 man come back whenever they fully wipe
plus the repleneshing.
Should bump up the tomb blades for board control.
Fun List

What do you mean with the GA's, 20 man blob is 40 shots? They cannot ride GA's, GA's don't increase the number of shots they fire, thus GA's have absolutely nothing to do with the blob's shooting.

I'm commenting on a single blob worth of 960 points and saying the put out 20 st4ap5 shots (laughable) at 24" (almost laughable), while they move 6" a turn. You're saying that somehow they have more, which they don't. Maybe the other units also shoot and that's how the whole list becomes more dangerous. Which is quite fair to say. But that begs for the following comparison:

Warriorstar -------------------------------------------- vs -------------------------------------------- Ghost Ark Warriors
960pts --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 235pts
20 Gauss shots at 24" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20 or 30 shots at 24" (depending if you can get a view from both sides)
limited movement/LoS/cover (difficult to shoot things with 25 model unit) ------------ Very mobile, very agile thanks to open topped rule, easy to shoot from
Brings no support to the rest of the army ------------------------------------------------------- Ressurects D3 Warriors each turn
Resistant to anti-infantry fire ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ignores anti-infantry fire
Almost immune to anti-tank fire ------------------------------------------------------------------- Can Jink anti-tank fire without losing too much in shooting
No assault capabilities ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No assault capabilities
They come back if they get wiped (seriously, why would they get wiped?) ----------- It won't come back if it gets wiped

So, in this 1850 points list, which has 80 or 100 gauss shots each turn (depending on the Ghost Arks facings) only 20 is from the 960points sink. The rest is just the rest of the list. I'm not judging the list as a whole. I believe the rest of the list, exept for the blobstar is good.

Also, as I mentioned, this list is not a Decurion, thus making the warriors quite susceptible to just dying or running. (since they are not fearless, remember?) Toughness 4, 4+ save and 5+ FNP is not what necron durability is reknown for. They are not going to last TAU/Eldar shooting for a single turn. (even though, it would be better if they just shot the 900 points remaining dead and just left your blob there, alone).

 skoffs wrote:
MSU Tomb Blades are best.
Three units of 5 would be good.
Don't bother with Tesla. Gauss is the best bet.
Tesla WOULD be good with the Immortals, tho, as they're gonna want to hang back.
Maybe drop that 11th Warrior and add a 6th Immortal instead, to give the unit a slight bump in survivability.

11 warriors + 5 immortals is better for break tests ,I think , and depending on how you actually play those Immortals, I'd say it's more worth it to go for that setup and not add any extra Immortal. I'd also recomend Tesla on them, but the difference is really negligible, so just go for what you modeled/like.

If you're going for 15 Tomb Blades, why not switch some weapons arround? Gauss Blasters are really good on them with AP4 and ignores cover. (Removes pesky marker lights with great efficiency) Maybe 2 units with Particle Beamers (since you like them so much) and 1 unit of Gauss blasters?

It is very hard to keep a discussion alive saying: "Hey, here's my list. This is how I play it, I don't want to improve it, I don't care about competitive play, so give me any comments". Honestly, what answers did you expect in a Tactics thread? You post your list, people comment how you can optimize and make the best use of what you have. If you don't want those kind of comments and are just planning to ignore it all, because you just play that list for fun, what is the idea behind posting your list?

I don't want to take part in that Destroyer Lord-Warrior unit, I believe most people covered it already, I just think you're missing the point here. If you believe 7th ed necrons are subpar compared to others, it's a completely fair opinion. However, not playing up to their absolute power, ignoring strong units and making "fun" units (Where is the fun or even fluffy side of running a destroyer lord with warriors, honestly?) is definetely helping you increase the gap. If we can't make competitive lists compared to the other armies, just make competitive lists, as much as possible, using our own codex. In non-competitive GT environment, necrons are still very reliable and can net you wins against any army if fielded and played to a decent level. The only thing keeping necrons of GT's final tables are the meta fluctuations, which are mostly irrelevant in your FLGS (topic meta hugely differs to GT final table lists, by far) and not imbalances in the codex. The codex has very good internal balance, many choices to run competitively, quite good ideas and it's pretty strong, compared to standard level lists (tau gunlines, meq battle companies, certain deathstars, etc.). If your FLGS is basicly hardcore, GT winning players, then, yes. You can't keep up with the Necron codex, most likely. If not, however, Necron codex is more than enough to keep you relevant.

Then again, if none of this matters to you and you really just play for "fun" (even though we all enjoy winning and that's the entire goal of the game, behind both list building and strategic playing), then what's the point of taking part in a tactics discussion? Tactics is engaging the brain, in order to get an advantage and win. Tactics are used both when list building and when playing, if you're looking to win. If you don't "care" to win, tactics are irrelevant. If tactics (mostly when list building) are irrelevant to you, then what's the point of posting in a Tactics thread?

Odrankt, your list was posted in the Tactics discussion as a suggestion for a fellow Necron player to use. As you suggested it, others tried to shape it up. If not for you, then for the person you suggested it to. Just like you suggested to him your list, the rest of the people suggested to him to change some elements of it and elaborated on your idea. That was not an attack to you, or your list. Nor did anyone imply YOU had to change how you played. As you also pointed out, it was a suggestion for another fellow necron player.

Although, my post was more of an answer to the latter posts, that complained about the comments, like the following:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...

As for the "optimizers", they make suggestions that in no shape or form are you forced to follow. They are friendly recomendations by people who have some experience on a game, army, matchup or unit and want to share it, by presenting arguments based on observations and logical assumptions.Everyone's goal is to help each other out and benefit from one another. It's a tactics discussion where everybody can put his own thoughts and observations. You can take what you want from it, but disrespecting someone's well-grounded advice, either by dismissing it with no arguments to back your claims up, or just straight up calling them names is, at the very least, weird.


EDIT:

 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Ok, so should my Decurion be that CC-heavy? I feel like i'm lacking in ranged firepower and should add something. If you guys want, I can post my current build, about 1850 pts.

Posting your list would greatly help everyone make more precise comments. As for the CC-heavy, well.. Necrons don't really get too shooty after the Tesla nerf, unfortunately, so you don't have many choices. It's either CC or ignore and survive for the most part. You can make shooty lists, for sure, but they just don't stack up too well versus other "shooty" lists. It also helps that some of our better units are CC oriented, as well as just about any useful HQ we can get (exept Zahndrekh). Having said that, a mix of both worlds is not that bad, like the classic Harvest + Dcult Decurion with some heavy warrior support (maybe GA's as well). Prets also combine both and they also (imo) are a star unit of the codex.

Odrankt wrote:

but disrespecting someone's well-grounded advice, either by dismissing it with no arguments to back your claims up, or just straight up calling them names is, at the very least, weird.

Disrespect? If i disrespected someone then I applogise. In no way shape or form would I want to disrespect someones oppion. Even if mine comes off that way. "calling them names"? I don't think I called anyone a name? If i did could you please show me where and I will also applogise if i did call someone a mean name.

Again sorry for any issues I have caused towards you or any other user. I rather be helpful to the community and not an a**hole.

Those comments were not directed towards you, for the biggest part. Although, you've been amazingly polite and I applaud that. Anonimity, language barriers and unorganized forum discussions make for those awkward situations. Back to Necrony goodness now!

Odrankt wrote:


May I ask why Tesla or Gauss for the Immortals? I like Tesla on the Night scythe but I always though Gauss was better for Troops?

It depends on what you plan to use the Immortals for. If they're more of a tax in your list, aka usually MSU, either 2 squads for a legal CAD (without any other investment or support in them, like HQ's/Transports etc) they are more "backfield objective holders", trying to draw fire some times when you need them, but most of the times just survive at the back or in LoS. For those squads tesla is slightly better, because you're most probably not finding yourself in 12" range and in 24" the tesla with the possible 6s outshines the Gauss. Undoubtedly, Gauss is better in rapid fire range, but the arguement is this squad will statistically get in rapid fire range rarely, if ever in your games.

If they're a 10 man strong squad that you plan to use for mid-field dominance with Destroyer lord support or a transport, I'd go for the Gauss. You're likely to find yourself in Rapid Fire range and in 24" the Gauss is still only slightly worse.

Generally, this is all very picky. In reality, the difference is very small and I suggest go with whatever you like best, or what you modeled. (Or wait for the new edition to choose your weapons!)

How about the D Lord w/ Praetorians? Maybe something like this

CAD
HQ
Destroyer Lord (Voidreaper, Phase Shifter)

Troops
5 Immortals (Gauss)
5 Immortals (Gauss)

Elites
6 Praetorians (Rod of Covenant)

Fast Attack

3 Wraiths (coils)
3 Wraiths (coils)

Decurion

Nemesor Zahndrekh

5 Immortals (Tesla or Gauss)

4 Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope, 3 Gauss, 1 Particle Beamer)
4 Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope, 3 Gauss, 1 Particle Beamer)
4 Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope, 3 Gauss, 1 Particle Beamer)

10 Warriors in Ghost Ark
10 Warriors in Ghost Ark

Auxiliary

6 Deathmarks

Total 1844