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As I returned to the game only recently, this is something that I'm wondering about. Is it necessary to bring AA units in every list,or can you get away with just having a decent volume of fire from your regular units?

None. I ignore flyers because most of the good ones have 3+ armor and almost all skyfire is AP 4.

Martel732 wrote:
None. I ignore flyers because most of the good ones have 3+ armor and almost all skyfire is AP 4.

But what about for actual vehicle flyers?

Against a flying circus list I just try and play for objectives, I know that the can kill a few units a turn, or expose himself to my venom fire and kill more.

Against a jet or something of the such, I usually ignore it, they don't do enough unless taken en masse

99% of the time I take absolutely no dedicated skyfire. However, I often take a unit that can double up as improvised anti-flier if necessary, like a few units of Lootas.

I like to include my stormtalon in a TAC list, but formations can make it rough to fit in. So a little AA that can double as ground attack. Similarly, I like a Crimson Hunter with my Eldar.

But I can only field them in CADs due to the limitations of my collection.

If you play the ground game and keep an eye on objectives, you should still be able to do OK. AA is nice to have, but not required.

It does depend slightly on your army, but in general, AA is not something I see a lot of.

Probably the biggest reason for this is that people usually don't bring a lot of aircraft, so people don't usually bring AA.

Furthermore, dedicated AA units have the skyfire rule, which means they snap fire at ground targets. So, if you bring dedicated AA units, and your opponent doesn't have aircraft, you have a mostly wasted unit.

Units that are allowed to choose between firing normally and skyfire are fairly rare.

About the only AA anyone ever brings are flyers of their own, and even then most army's flyers range from lackluster to awful.

Space marine flyers are decent, necron ones are decent and double as transports. Past that I don't see a lot of flying vehicles.

Flying monstrous creatures, however, are more or less spammed by any army that can take them.

At any rate, to answer your question - most people bring flyers of their own, if they're any good, or just prescience their shooting units and try their luck.

Or you can be like me and just bring a lot of tankbustas.

 Vash108 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None. I ignore flyers because most of the good ones have 3+ armor and almost all skyfire is AP 4.

But what about for actual vehicle flyers?

They're easier to hurt, but they're not as dangerous as FMCs, so no one cares.

Minimal to incidental at best. I'll run a heldrake in a chaos army, maybe point some autohavoks, forgefiends or oblits skywards and hope.

In my marines I try and fit a Raptor Wing in (2x Stormtalons and a unit of 'speeders) and that's all the AA I'll need.

Tau have more AA options than you can shake a missile at, but I like skyrays enough that there is often 2 in any list I take, so again, I'm good for AA more often than not.

Anything else I generally subscribe to the "Just don't look" style of ignoring them until they go away, go into hover, or the game ends. At the end of the day though, it all depends on your meta. If you've got someone who likes running the St Tylus formation (the one with one unit of sternguard of up to 6 stormtalons that can start on the board), any competative 'Nid army (filled with flyrants), ye olde 'Cron Air and a daemon flying circus, then yeah, AA is going to be a priority, but if you're in the same meta as everyone else (gladius, scatbikes/WK/spiders etc) then you won't need any AA at all.

Not very much. If i bring SW sometimes i use a stormwolf which its main purpose is to be a transport, but i rely quite often to the tempest of s7 ignores cover shots granted by the wyrdstorm brotherhood if i need to hurt a flyer. With dark eldar no specific AA at all. With orks i take traktor kannons very few times, but i usually have a ton of s5-7-8 shots that can easily target a flyer as they hit on 5s anyway. I don't like flyers so i have only one of them in 3 armies and 15000 points and i typically don't include some specific anti air in the lists that i play.

 Vash108 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None. I ignore flyers because most of the good ones have 3+ armor and almost all skyfire is AP 4.

But what about for actual vehicle flyers?

The only av flyer that's supposed to be worth it's points seems to be a heldrake. And my list doesn't really care about heldrakes cause it's either 2+ armor or 6+ armor.

I either bring my own flyer or an aegis. w/ quadgun. a fun one is dark reaper exarch on a Icarus lascannon

Usually 1 unit

What I have in my main army (Imperial Guard).

I have -
2x Sabre Defence platforms w/ Autocannons
1x Twinlinked Icarus Lascannon
3x Missile Launcher w/ Flakk

The Sabres have proven their worth once or twice (forcing a Stormraven to jink, taking down a Vulture etc.).

The Twinlinked Icarus has yet to hit anything (The dice gods hate me, BS4 twinlinked and yet I've never ever rolled a hit).

The Missile Launchers aren't very effective but I see them more as emergency and/or distraction AA anyway.

Zero, because I always have my own flyers that can, if necessary, use their guns for AA.

I used to have a pair of Stormtalons for AA as well as ground duty. Then Death from the Skies came up with a stupid system of flyer classes and my poor talons couldn't shoot to the skies anymore, when the supplement was in use that is. Nowadays I run no AA, but then again no one plays fliers in my area.

 koooaei wrote:


The only av flyer that's supposed to be worth it's points seems to be a heldrake. And my list doesn't really care about heldrakes cause it's either 2+ armor or 6+ armor.

I think stormtalons and stormravens worth their points too, like any other SM unit.

I often take a Hell Talon. Nasty AA if they want to play Death From The Skies, and serviceable at strafing - six TL Rending Autocannon shots is nothing to be sniffed at.

I mostly throw rocks at them until they go away.

Stormraven is overcosted like most marine vehicles.

If I'm bringing a decently sized Skitarii force I'll bring an Icarus Array on an Onager.
My Imperial Knights are often blessed with Icarus Autocannons which can at least tickle FMCs and flyers. The twelve shot Gattling Cannon can also hit flying units while snap-firing just through volume of fire.
Blood Angels get no Skyfire unless they're back by my Imperial Fists.
My Eldar have a Crimson Hunter to kill flying units.

To be fair, I never really bother.
It's rare for me to play a game against a lot of flyers.

With my current deathwatch army it's slightly different though.
I run 2 blackstars simply for transport, but I've found them to do a great job of removing any flyers I do come across.

In my 30k list I run 2 twin kheres dreads.
24 S6 rending shots a turn tend to solve any issues there.
They are just something I run as they tear through just about anything with ease.
Knights, tanks, troops, flyers, anything is fair game.

I try and bring something that can pull double duty, firing as AA with its off-hand, so to speak.
For example, a Contemptor-Mortis dread can remain stationary and fire its shots Skyfire, or choose to move around fire at only ground targets. With 12 S6 Rending shots and 2 Missiles, that's pretty darn good firepower either way, the Skyfire is just a bonus.

If I'm not taking Forge World, then the Land Raider Command Tanks are a pretty good choice, granting Skyfire to a single friendly unit, or else just giving Snap Shots at full ballistic skill. Either way, you're getting to shoot down fliers. The new Fall of Cadia relic does the same, granting Skyfire to a unit that doesn't otherwise get it, normally.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None. I ignore flyers because most of the good ones have 3+ armor and almost all skyfire is AP 4.

But what about for actual vehicle flyers?

They're easier to hurt, but they're not as dangerous as FMCs, so no one cares.

The only Flyer I care is Heldrake. Well, maybe the best way to destroy Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is a Heldrake Terror pack formation of 3 Hell-turkeys and Inferno Tetra Formation, right at 1850pts level. Fish more anti tank shooting rewards and psychic powers for the DP (I think there is a reward that is 18 inch beam lance S8 AP1?) so the DPs can pop multiple Razorbacks with both psychic and shooting phase a turn for the Heldrakes to burn all the marines in there. Therotically they can wipe out 3 squads along with their transports a turn. It is a horrible flying circus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the topic, If you do care about AA, bring your own Flyer is a good option. By the way, which army do you play? If your environment is flyer heavy (not FMC, mechanical Flyer like Heldrakes, Vendattas, SM flyers, Dakkjets, NigthScythes, etc), and you play Space Marine, bring a couple Stormtalons or Stormhawks with Skyhammer missiles are good in doing the job, or bring the marine AA formation with 1 unit of 3 Stalkers and a single Hunter, the stalker now have ignore cover (when you have 3) and interceptors which make them more useful against enemy Flyer, they are also good when shooting at enemy skimmers, such as Tau, Eldar and Necron vehicles.

For Flying Monstrous Creatures
It can be totally another story compare to mechanical flyers, if you don't want to go the way: "just ignore them, I have more body than the flying circus can kill in a 5 turns game, and I just win by sit on objectives".
If your environment is Flyrant heavy, use flyers with AP3/2 weaponary is good, at least you force those Flyrants to jink and reduce their firepower, Stormravens with TML and Lascannon is good (it also has AV12 and PotMS, make it more durable than other flyers and can retain more effective firepower than other flyers when forced to jink) but it is expensive, Stormtalon with TML is good, Stormhawk with Las-talon and TML is great. If your environment is Flying DP heavy (especially Nurgle DP) / Inferno Tetras, bring up Tigirius in Librarian Conclave along with blob of Grav-Centurions (better to have Sternguards as well in case some of the DPs relys on 3++ or shrouding and have no armor), fish for Perfect Timing and Invisibility, pop your Dorctrines and snap shot the (rerollable) grav-cannons and rending (by Tigirius' WL) hurricane bolters into the sky, and rely on invisibility and probably gate of infinity to stay alive. I admit that it feels like list/army tailoring, bu imo it feels not that unfair and unacceptable because it is tailoring against top tier OP units to engage them head-on and even then it is just ensure you have a way to hurt them, not a winning button.

Tangentially related: do grav weapons do anything special to flying stuff? They're present in my meta but I've not had my air units face off against them yet, they seem more interested in my Terminators and Land Raider for some reason

 lindsay40k wrote:
Tangentially related: do grav weapons do anything special to flying stuff? They're present in my meta but I've not had my air units face off against them yet, they seem more interested in my Terminators and Land Raider for some reason

Grav gun and Grav pistol may not be effective against flying stuff. Grav Cannon with Grav amp carried by Centurions or Marine Devastors have tons of shots (for the later, try give them Relentless or SnP), so can do a decent job against Flying units when supported by rerolls to hit from dorctrines or Psychic buffs. Against mechanical flyers, by math every 10 Grav shots will produce a six in the to pen, result a hull point and "immobilize" outcome if the flyer do not jink. Against FMC with 3+ armor save, by math every 3.7 shots will wound it once when the same buff above is provided, so a Squad of 3man Grav Centurion will kill a Flyrant, 5 man Squad will kill a DP with its normal un-buffed 5+ inv save in one turn, if they do not jink or you have Ignore cover.

My base list includes a Raptor Wing (Two Skyhammer Stormtalons and a Land Speeder Typhoon). Faux Monster/Tank Hunters allows the Talons to light up just about anything in the sky. I am tempted to change some points around and make them into Typhoon Stormtalon for a little better shooting toward FMCs. The lascannons don't really have enough shots to be worth it. I might try it out to be sure though.