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dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com,

its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis.

name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then?

cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB...

having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place,

yes some people will have to pay more,

yes it sucks to pay more,

yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k

in my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase

I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything

some people expect them to go down or never change.

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

$61.88 + shipping from MM

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

Then easysauce would be affected

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

Then easysauce would be affected

Any store with a contract who is caught selling to someone with a regular ebay presence probably is in violation. An ebay seller who is only buying from other ebay sellers, though, is more or less untouchable.

That said, it's going to be pretty hard to tie them with whoever is supplying them.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
$61.88 + shipping from MM

right so 100$ or so after shipping and customs

80-90$ if i lived in the states

Im not saying there wont be a difference, at least to those dependant on 3rd party stores...

i am saying the difference isnt the be all end all some are making it out to be,

if 10-20$ more per model kit makes or breaks your bank account... you have more important things then 40k to worry about

Ebay will be 100% unaffected, GW cant ban people selling 40k on ebay, all they can do is not give non-brick + mortar stores the direct discount on minis,


I think people are grossly over estimating the power of GW and making a big deal over something that is at worst a small price hike, if they choose to continue to use 3rd party stores over ebay.

easysauce wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
$61.88 + shipping from MM

right so 100$ or so after shipping and customs

80-90$ if i lived in the states

Im not saying there wont be a difference, at least to those dependant on 3rd party stores...

i am saying the difference isnt the be all end all some are making it out to be,

if 10-20$ more per model kit makes or breaks your bank account... you have more important things then 40k to worry about

Ebay will be 100% unaffected, GW cant ban people selling 40k on ebay, all they can do is not give non-brick + mortar stores the direct discount on minis,


I think people are grossly over estimating the power of GW and making a big deal over something that is at worst a small price hike, if they choose to continue to use 3rd party stores over ebay.

Eh, shipping from them is usually $5-10. My experience has been it's usually the ebay sellers that are gouging on shipping. I did miss that you were in Canada, so yeah it'll be pricier than that for you.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I was considering pretty much the same thing. Except that I've heard that 6th edition and a couple armies including Tau and Eldar have been ready since early last year. With the rumor that Kirby jumps ship in a year it would make sense that they held back releases, just to get a huge number of releases this year and try to make profits as high possible before he sells his stock.

Or it could be just the logical conclusion of "Hey, we have a bunch of stuff in the warehouse we could be selling. Why not make money now?

Wait what? When did the Kirby retiring rumor come from?

Though he did say it would be 80 to 90 dollars if he lived in the states, if he lived in the states he could get the stormraven from the Warstore for 66 dollars plus 6.95 shipping. 10 dollars less than retail and it'll get to you in 3 to 5 days.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Though he did say it would be 80 to 90 dollars if he lived in the states, if he lived in the states he could get the stormraven from the Warstore for 66 dollars plus 6.95 shipping. 10 dollars less than retail and it'll get to you in 3 to 5 days.

Yeah, that was kind of my point

Ya im curious what online.store charges you that.much. Hell i only charge $5 and generally lose on shipping and I'm around the standard.

I think my last order from miniature market had like 7.50 shipping or so for a single pathfinder book.

For all the talk about Monopolies and unfair trade practices you have to remember something. The monopoly must be over a large part of the market that it effects. In this case even though GW is a big fish in a little pond it still doesn't control the "toy soldier" market (in fact I bet it doesn't even control a majority of it). There is no law that restricts how you sell your items to the general public (barring health and safety issues). If you want to restrict your market or the number of people that buy from you then that is your perogative. The only monopoly that GW has is over its own products. Those of us in the 40K/FB group don't really amount to much in the real world.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all the talk about Monopolies and unfair trade practices you have to remember something. The monopoly must be over a large part of the market that it effects. In this case even though GW is a big fish in a little pond it still doesn't control the "toy soldier" market (in fact I bet it doesn't even control a majority of it). There is no law that restricts how you sell your items to the general public (barring health and safety issues). If you want to restrict your market or the number of people that buy from you then that is your perogative. The only monopoly that GW has is over its own products. Those of us in the 40K/FB group don't really amount to much in the real world.

You can make a clear distinction between model soldiers and Table Top Wargaming miniatures. Which GW most certaintly does control a large portion of the market for.

I'd even go to say there's a break between Historical and Fantasy/Sci-fi wargaming.


Of course GW isn't making the market difficult for its competitors to operate in. If anything they are making it easier by alienating its customer base and driving them to other companies.

Much like IP law, anti-trust seems to be grossly misunderstood.

Most countries evaluate trade terms under two different principles. The first is a manufacturer or suppliers share of a given market. The threshold for getting regulatory attention is not that high...no where near what people seem to believe. US laws generally refer to it in vague terms like market dominance. Canada for example has actually called out 35% though they have exceptions for dominant suppliers as well who are below that number. GW would meet the requirement to fall under most broad anti-trust laws, however it is more about what they do while they are the dominant supplier...not how big they are. The size only is a factor in figuring out if the regulatory body will involve themselves. For example, real luxury items like Rolex are outside the scope of most regulations because they have a tiny fraction of the watch market.

The second, and more important is how a suppliers trade practices impact an individual retailer. With MWG for example, 70% of their business came from GW. That places them in a overwhelmingly powerful position over the individual retailer, and allows them to force their decisions on that retailer. Again, specific numbers are not generally mentioned, but they do use many of the same broad terms...so again, GW would fall under most of the laws for many individual retailers. With those laws, regulators like the Competition Commission or the FTC (there is one in the UK as well...though the name slips my mind) will step in if terms or actions violate fair trade principles.

If I were a retailer, I would be making an enquiry with my regulators. Get some use out of the taxes and all that. Filing a lawsuit might be outside the scope of a given companies resource, but a regulator who is looking for a feather in their hat would probably be happy to lean on a supplier who is overreaching.

No regulator is going to give a rat's behind over this issue. If a store places itself in a position where one brand name item is its life's blood then it is incombent on the retailer to get himself out of that situation. If that item is the only item of its kind then the regulator may take a look at it and the overall impact on the public interest but again we're talking about toy soldiers and that doesn't effect a lot of people.

People have the ability to sue whoever they want for whatever reason they want but in this instance I'd lay my money on a store being laughed right out of court over this issue.

Regulators get involved with children's lemonade stands and home made quilts...they really have nothing which is too small for them.

As I have mentioned though, the new terms are a clear violation for Canadian retailers. US tends to be less black and white, though they do seem to violate a half dozen state laws.

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:

ebay wont be affected by the new rules at all, thats the cheapest place I find for mini's

That's not what we're talking about in this thread, and even a cursory glance would show you that.

other online non gw sources save me 10-20% off box price, and then charge 10-20% shipping...

so its about the same price as i get from gw online when gw does free shipping.

What online non-gw sources? Please be specific.

now that there cant be one? does ebay come under internet sales? can that even be enforced?

Yes, in so much as any company who is currently selling on eBay will be pretty easy to track down (dummy orders like GW did in the CHS case). People who are having items sold to them by a retailer and then selling them on eBay as an individual would be a bit more difficult - but a batch coding system would be pretty easy to implement and make tracking the entire path of the product a no brainer as well...

More likely though, they will rely on the loose lips philosophy and wait for people to turn other people in.

Lol, I still like how his 1 online source was eBay, and his other online source was... eBay... >_<

OH well, onwards to June 15th!

nkelsch wrote:
The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz seller

I think this might be the most lol bit of unintended humor I've ever read, and certainly this week at least. The only people that are unhappy with these changes are outside agitators. What a glorious use of the sword and shield - raise the Finecast banner high, brother, and continue to repel these infidels!

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
[Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

That's just not true.
ID explain, but Sean has done a good job of doing so and he's got the letters after his name to know what he's talking about (iirc).

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
[Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

No. They don't.

Most anti-trust cases have nothing to do with monopolies anymore - those days are long since past. However, there are a lot of cases which come up that relate to predatory practices by major suppliers in any number of markets. Again, I point to Canada and their competition act where it is a clear violation by restricting the ability of a retailer to sell in other markets (of which online is one market that they are restricted from and overseas customers would be another market).

In the US, things are a bit more foggy. The language which sets up what vertical distribution structures are allowed and what are not allowed is somewhat foggy - but most is laid out in the Sherman Anti-trust Act. Recent cases have upheld the right of a company to set things like MSRP and limit deep discounting - but those are not all legal. FTC guidelines in the US generally prohibit a manufacturer from setting up a company store in direct competition with existing retail stores. That will end up being the primary action that will begin to see GW move from their guidelines being enforced legally versus illegal activity. Tie-in sales would likely be another thing that GW could run afoul with.

http://ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/supply_chain.shtm

None of the different clauses require a monopoly as most people seem to commonly understand the term. A company like GW would also be an easy target for a regulator who is looking to make a name for himself.

Here's a handy chart that will clear up any misunderstandings as to your right to sell your GW items::

If you signed a contract with GW then you are legally restriced in what you can do.

If you buy some GW miniatures from any source and do not sign any contracts, knock yourself out.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

That's just not true.
ID explain, but Sean has done a good job of doing so and he's got the letters after his name to know what he's talking about (iirc).

No, but my wife does. And I have spent more than a little time dealing with the issues with my own attorneys to make sure I didn't run afoul of the law in our own business. I use MSE after my name when I want to do such things - though normally I don't use anything.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
FTC guidelines in the US generally prohibit a manufacturer from setting up a company store in direct competition with existing retail stores. That will end up being the primary action that will begin to see GW move from their guidelines being enforced legally versus illegal activity. Tie-in sales would likely be another thing that GW could run afoul with..

I'm not familiar with this, specifically the retail store elements I quoted. I've read through the link you dropped, and not seeing what you're saying (so I'm probably just missing it), but that aside for a moment. Doesn't there have to be some official finding that GWS has some sort of dominant relationship before anything like this could be actioned?

The overwhelming majority of ebay GW discounters are actually online stores that sell on ebay as a second storefront. FRPGames, MiniatureMarket, Discount Hobby, Dicehead, etc etc will all be affected by the new trade terms and I can guarantee you they will stop selling on ebay as well.

 BitWraith wrote:
Here's a handy chart that will clear up any misunderstandings as to your right to sell your GW items::

If you signed a contract with GW then you are legally restriced in what you can do.

If you buy some GW miniatures from any source and do not sign any contracts, knock yourself out.

What he said and sean until i see an esq in your name all legal statements are invalid.

I don't know about the rest of you, but both if my LGSs that sell warhammer are happy about the changes.

I have trouble believing that none of the rest of them out there are.