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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 amanita wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Orks really struggle with this I feel, particularly the vehicles. Although I don't necessarily fault GW for that.
It's hard to suggest an extremely ramshackle look, when you can only produce 1 vehicle kit.


As much as I enjoy the ork aesthetic, having multiples of 'unique' looking vehicles has always been off-putting for me. So I've always greatly modified WW II vehicles for my ork army. Now if GW made vehicles more modular, that would be fantastic: pairs of wheels, track sets, frames, possibilities to extend them, plates and bits mostly separate, etc.

I'd be all on board with that!


The already do.
Buy 3-4 vehicle kits (any faction). Throw all the bits in a box. Shake well. Pull bits out & start gluing them together.
When you're happy with your creation? Draw more bits & repeat process. If you run out of bits? Buy more kits & repeat....
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






So...has anyone taken a peek at the current ork kit?

because spoiler alert, all shoota boyz are in EXACTLY that pose from the preview image.

The only thing that's better about old boyz shootas in terms of customizability is the lack of the sculpted hand on the barrel of the gun (boyz are old enough that they have the old U-hand)

GW has, since fifth edition, gone for the sculpted hand on the gun because it looks noticeably better when you build the model as intended, and people who want to convert are generally willing to slice the sculpted hand off.

Its not like the U-hand arms are ever useful for anything else anyway so the arm that's just cut off at the wrist is better.

The only way to get orks holding shootas in more dynamic poses than that, is to cut the shoota hands at the wrists, or go for a 'holding the gun down by the waist, doing something with the other hand like throwing a grenade" pose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:26:26


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
So...has anyone taken a peek at the current ork kit?

because spoiler alert, all shoota boyz are in EXACTLY that pose from the preview image.

Well the same pose...but twerking.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 vipoid wrote:
Regarding monopose models, this is the sort of thing I hate seeing:



I don't know if these actually count as monopose or not but it's the same issue either way. Four of them are fine but look at the plasmagunner - instead of holding his gun normally (like he's about to fire it) he's holding it up in the air and pointing with his off-hand.

This is fine if you've one got one unit but when you start fielding multiples the fact that every plasmagunner is holding his gun in one hand will start to get very noticeable very quickly.

And this, I will remind you, is a unit that can potentially have 4 plasmagunners. There are no variant models with plasmaguns so if you make four then your Command Squad is going to start looking less like elite warriors and more like children on a school trip.

"Sir! Sir! Look over here, sir!"

"No, sir! Please, sir! There's a far more exciting thing over here, sir!"


That is a good example that helps me understand the concern more. Though isn't this kit fairly flexible ( aside from the gun )? This seems more like a design mistake by GW.


Yeah, the rest of the kit is basically fine. It's just that specific gun that's really awkward (and it's something that different legs can't really help with).


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
So...has anyone taken a peek at the current ork kit?

because spoiler alert, all shoota boyz are in EXACTLY that pose from the preview image.

Well the same pose...but twerking.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Or maybe people just like new models and have a hard time reconciling your concerns with theirs. Calling it sycophantic fanboyism really doesn't bridge that gap.
And I can't reconcile why anyone would want fewer options with their miniatures.

Look at it from my perspective Dae:

I grew up in a world where most of the stuff GW put out was metal, and when they released a plastic kit it tended to be pretty basic. I have a Guard army with well over 100 metal Guardsmen, where they were exceptionally limited poses. I tried to get enough of each to at least make the squads have some dynamism in them, but in many cases that was't possible (I have very few of some of the rarer Tallarn and Mordian sculpts, and far too many of a couple of OG Cadian poses). My fav GW game of all time is Necromunda, where there were metal models, and some exceptionally basic plastic starter minis for two gangs. I converted the ever-loving hell out of those plastics, which is great for my Goliath and Orlocks, but not so great for the gangs that just had what they had.

And then GW advances their plastic sculpting technology to the point where there aren't any other games/miniature companies that can reach their level. And they release massive, multi-part, option-rich kits that you can do all sorts of things. The amount of stuff I've done with Marines alone - specially in the way you can (or rather could) kitbash everything in that line - is just amazing. Orks are similar. Even Guard has a lot going on with its plastics and what you can mix'n'match. The Eye of Terror campaign saw them release actual kitbash kits to make mutants - a sprue of Orks, Catachans and Zombies, plus the old Chaos Mutation sprue. I have nearly 100 of the damned things.

Then we get to witness GW regressing. Their kits still look good, but they're now jigsaw puzzles, have limited options (changes in a few gun bits, assuming they have any options at all). We're getting static dynamic poses (that sounds contradictory, I know) that look fine individually, but will begin to look odd in large quantities. And they're charging more and more for things that have few modelling opportunities than their old stuff. They're even doing it with terrain, FFS (where have these kits gone? They're not that old!).

And then I come here, and get told that it wasn't happening (at first), then that it was no big deal, then that it's better this way. And you wonder why I call it sycophantic fanboyism?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 23:29:58


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
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I disagree with the claim that GW is regressing. The Primaris lost a waist swivel (without a minor amount of work to cut the legs off if you really want something different) and the arms, shoulder pads and heads are still all interchangeable. Losing the mediocre waist joint (seriously that ball joint didn't give you that much freedom and just served to ensure all the legs had to be as neutral as possible so you can slightly twist the torso about three degrees in any direction before it looked bad).

And as I pointed out earlier, there is a fair amount of kitbash potential between Cadians, GSC and Ad Mech.

I get a lot of this is feeling based (much like anytime I've seen /tg/ cry about "soul"), but anyone who wants to convert models can still convert models. People who want to kitbash can still kitbash, and honestly the models have better detail than before to boot. As for the complexity of the models, the plastic origami is to allow those more dynamic poses as plastic requires a lot of work to deal with undercuts.

I get that no matter what happens there will be a portion of the community who always hates something GW does, but some of these complaints seem to ignore that conversions, like the true-scale conversions people where doing for years (like cutting the thighs in half, adding plastic spacers and then sculpting over it to smooth out the gaps), have never been easy, and kitbashing often takes a bit of work to make new parts fit and maybe some minor sculpting to cover the gaps. This is nothing new. And I feel like some of the complaints go out of their way to ignore the positives while only looking at a small handful of negatives.

Now, is the plasma gun thing for Scions kind of dumb? Sure. But it's also easy to fix. Take the grenade launcher arms no one is using, chop the grenade launcher off the firing arm, pin a plasma gun from the guard kit onto the hand that is now just holding the pistol grip, drill a small hole for the side handle for the support handle to plug into and glue it all together. Simple fix that gives you a unique looking plasma gun design and only takes some guard plasma guns (which are not that hard to source in general).

I won't claim every model is that easy to "fix" if you don't want duplicates, but most are pretty easy, and if your ideas are complicated then you're going to have to live with doing extra work to make them happen.
   
Made in us
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"It's no big deal because you can just cut up the models and fix them" isn't a good argument for why people shouldn't be annoyed at having to, well, cut up the models and fix them.

The complaint isn't that it's impossible to repose monopose kits, it's that you have to, well, cut them up to do it, whereas before the kits were built to facilitate creating your own poses, precisely so you wouldn't have to do that. Saying "but you can still do it! just cut up your models!" is quite literally missing the point.

Nor is "you're going to have to just live with it." These are both non-arguments in that they don't address the actual complaint, they just hand-waive it away as petty and unimportant. Which is exactly what annoys people.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...And then I come here, and get told that it wasn't happening (at first), then that it was no big deal, then that it's better this way. And you wonder why I call it sycophantic fanboyism?...


If you scroll back up the thread you'll notice there was a bit where he was telling me I don't have to buy minis I don't like to play 9th and all my armies are still probably completely playable, and then he went all quiet when I told him what they were.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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yukishiro1 wrote:
"It's no big deal because you can just cut up the models and fix them" isn't a good argument for why people shouldn't be annoyed at having to, well, cut up the models and fix them.

The complaint isn't that it's impossible to repose monopose kits, it's that you have to, well, cut them up to do it, whereas before the kits were built to facilitate creating your own poses, precisely so you wouldn't have to do that. Saying "but you can still do it! just cut up your models!" is quite literally missing the point.

Nor is "you're going to have to just live with it." These are both non-arguments in that they don't address the actual complaint, they just hand-waive it away as petty and unimportant. Which is exactly what annoys people.

Conversions are all about cutting models and "fixing" them to fit whatever idea you have in mind. And "build" your own poses? Like what? Standing around, or standing around looking slightly to one side, or standing around looking slightly up, or standing around looking slightly down? I feel like there are some serious rose colored glasses on for how much you could do with the old kits without cutting models. Like if you want to change the direction of the arm instead of having it just rotated up or down a bit.

Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits. But go on, tell me what I said some more.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
...Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits...


No, you couldn't produce whatever you wanted with no effort with the old kits. That doesn't mean the locked torsos, overcomplicated joints, move to more patterns of armour (reducing the number of kits you can get parts from), and single-pose arms/wrists don't make it much harder to do anything interesting with Primaris kits than it was with older kits. The newer kits produce some cool mono-pose models, yeah. I'd rather have the old ones.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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What strengths do these newer kits actually have? Looking more fancy? I expect as much from newer techniques. Everything else is wasted on monopose kits for more money than the old kits.
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I disagree with the claim that GW is regressing.
Pictorial evidence says otherwise.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Primaris lost a waist swivel (without a minor amount of work to cut the legs off if you really want something different) and the arms, shoulder pads and heads are still all interchangeable. Losing the mediocre waist joint (seriously that ball joint didn't give you that much freedom and just served to ensure all the legs had to be as neutral as possible so you can slightly twist the torso about three degrees in any direction before it looked bad).
*ahem*
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then when it became too obvious to ignore "You're wrong!" became "So what?" with all the usual excuses (ie. "They're not that posable now, so it's not that big a difference!").

So in other words, CZ, you're going to tell me with a straight face that the new Primaris kits just "lost a waist swivel" are you? You're going to, with a completely straight face and with total earnestness, declare that the differences between these types of kits and these types of kits is a waist swivel?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And as I pointed out earlier, there is a fair amount of kitbash potential between Cadians, GSC and Ad Mech.
Which came out before the change started/took hold.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I get a lot of this is feeling based (much like anytime I've seen /tg/ cry about "soul"), but anyone who wants to convert models can still convert models. People who want to kitbash can still kitbash...
Not as easily they can't. The differences between the minis GW makes now compared to what they made at the tail end of 7th is just stark.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
... and honestly the models have better detail than before to boot. As for the complexity of the models, the plastic origami is to allow those more dynamic poses as plastic requires a lot of work to deal with undercuts.
Like clockwork:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then it moved onto "We like it because they're dynamic!" or "The old ones were bad anyway!".


 ClockworkZion wrote:
I get that no matter what happens there will be a portion of the community who always hates something GW does, but some of these complaints seem to ignore that conversions, like the true-scale conversions people where doing for years (like cutting the thighs in half, adding plastic spacers and then sculpting over it to smooth out the gaps), have never been easy, and kitbashing often takes a bit of work to make new parts fit and maybe some minor sculpting to cover the gaps. This is nothing new. And I feel like some of the complaints go out of their way to ignore the positives while only looking at a small handful of negatives.
I don't see what any of the above paragraph has to do with what I was talking about. You have always been able to take a razorsaw and greenstuff to your minis.

I'm talking about GW's regression in their miniature design ethos, their wasting of potential as they revert back to the old days of plastics where they basically build one thing, in a limited fashion. It's a far cry from their multiple option-filled kits that they were releasing regularly not even 5 years ago.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Now, is the plasma gun thing for Scions kind of dumb? Sure. But it's also easy to fix. Take the grenade launcher arms no one is using, chop the grenade launcher off the firing arm, pin a plasma gun from the guard kit onto the hand that is now just holding the pistol grip, drill a small hole for the side handle for the support handle to plug into and glue it all together. Simple fix that gives you a unique looking plasma gun design and only takes some guard plasma guns (which are not that hard to source in general).
As yukishiro said, "just cut up the model" isn't a great argument. And it doesn't address the core point either: You didn't need to cut things up with the way GW designed their kits. Kitbashing was super easy. Now, with the nightmare of overlapping complex parts, there are no options aside from the extremities (heads, the odd bit of a gun).

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 00:27:03


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
...Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits...


No, you couldn't produce whatever you wanted with no effort with the old kits. That doesn't mean the locked torsos, overcomplicated joints, move to more patterns of armour (reducing the number of kits you can get parts from), and single-pose arms/wrists don't make it much harder to do anything interesting with Primaris kits than it was with older kits. The newer kits produce some cool mono-pose models, yeah. I'd rather have the old ones.

I'm sorry, but to get a good dynamic pose with the old kit you were going to need to chop some legs apart and resculpt things since legs have existed in one pose for nearly every single model: "I just crapped my pants but I need to stand here".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 00:32:03


 
   
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I liked the new style until they decided it needed to carry over into the rules.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history. 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Or maybe people just like new models and have a hard time reconciling your concerns with theirs. Calling it sycophantic fanboyism really doesn't bridge that gap.
And I can't reconcile why anyone would want fewer options with their miniatures.

Look at it from my perspective Dae:

I grew up in a world where most of the stuff GW put out was metal, and when they released a plastic kit it tended to be pretty basic. I have a Guard army with well over 100 metal Guardsmen, where they were exceptionally limited poses. I tried to get enough of each to at least make the squads have some dynamism in them, but in many cases that was't possible (I have very few of some of the rarer Tallarn and Mordian sculpts, and far too many of a couple of OG Cadian poses). My fav GW game of all time is Necromunda, where there were metal models, and some exceptionally basic plastic starter minis for two gangs. I converted the ever-loving hell out of those plastics, which is great for my Goliath and Orlocks, but not so great for the gangs that just had what they had.

And then GW advances their plastic sculpting technology to the point where there aren't any other games/miniature companies that can reach their level. And they release massive, multi-part, option-rich kits that you can do all sorts of things. The amount of stuff I've done with Marines alone - specially in the way you can (or rather could) kitbash everything in that line - is just amazing. Orks are similar. Even Guard has a lot going on with its plastics and what you can mix'n'match. The Eye of Terror campaign saw them release actual kitbash kits to make mutants - a sprue of Orks, Catachans and Zombies, plus the old Chaos Mutation sprue. I have nearly 100 of the damned things.

Then we get to witness GW regressing. Their kits still look good, but they're now jigsaw puzzles, have limited options (changes in a few gun bits, assuming they have any options at all). We're getting static dynamic poses (that sounds contradictory, I know) that look fine individually, but will begin to look odd in large quantities. And they're charging more and more for things that have few modelling opportunities than their old stuff. They're even doing it with terrain, FFS (where have these kits gone? They're not that old!).

And then I come here, and get told that it wasn't happening (at first), then that it was no big deal, then that it's better this way. And you wonder why I call it sycophantic fanboyism?



Yea I was born into metal as well. Nothing quite like knowing you could give someone a concussion with a dreadnought.

I feel like the intermediary phase of multi-part kits was to allow some variety in what was pretty static sprues. Now that they have to tech to make pretty awesome models it comes at a cost of not being easily cut into those same kind of sprues while still letting the model make sense.

It's a sacrifice that benefits me and not so much the detail minded modelers. I don't know why terrain couldn't still maintain the modular dynamic so color me extra ignorant there.

Overall I feel like most people get more out of the new stuff than the old ( barring price increases ), but I get why it would be aggravating even if I don't really get it.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 kodos wrote:
and now
people celebrate the more expensive monopose kits because how the unit looks does not matter as long as the individual looks good
It's just the cycle of fawning sycophantic fanboyism that GW receives.

When I first pointed it out the usual suspects said I was wrong, I was crazy, and that nothing had changed. Then when it became too obvious to ignore "You're wrong!" became "So what?" with all the usual excuses (ie. "They're not that posable now, so it's not that big a difference!"). Then it moved onto "We like it because they're dynamic!" or "The old ones were bad anyway!". At the moment it's "No options and nonposable is actually better for everyone/the game/etc.!".

Pretty soon the next step is "You should be thankful there are even options at all!".


Or maybe people just like new models and have a hard time reconciling your concerns with theirs. Calling it sycophantic fanboyism really doesn't bridge that gap.


agreed. yeah it's hard to mix and match kits to produce soimething uniqe no arguerments there the first born marines where the kings of that I'll happily admit, but thats not due to any specific kit design but rather due to GW essentially producing the original space marine kit (RT-01 IIRC) and essentially making all marines from then on out more or less modular with each other. chest plates got slughtly better details, heads more crisp etc but over all the design of the first born marines hadn't changed at all.

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I don't see what any of the above paragraph has to do with what I was talking about. You have always been able to take a razorsaw and greenstuff to your minis.

From some of the posts in this thread people sure don't seem to remember this, which has been a large part of my complaint.

You can argue if you like the old models more or less, or if you feel that the dynamic portion is a step back or not, but claiming conversions didn't require actual work with the older kits is just nonsense which has been my biggest point to keep hitting (and only now is actually being acknowledged as being a real thing).

Like I said, much of this is feeling based. We don't have to agree with what we feel about the strengths or weaknesses of the old and new kits, I just feel that there is some serious rose tinting to how "easy" it was to convert old models.

And yes, those Marines are among the best of the old ones, but compared to Primaris I prefer the poses of the Primaris bodies more, as well as the better proportions. We don't have to agree on which is the better kit, especially when most of the "conversions" people are talking about with those old kits are just some arm swaps for different wargear, something Primaris do just as well.

Like what you like, but let's not pretend the old kits were really that much easier to make every model look like a one of a kind, especially in a horde.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I dunno CZ... are you trying to hit every stage of my post from before? Are you counting off each one of the excuses people gave about the change to mono-pose and running through them like there's, gak, I dunno, some sort of prize at the end? 'Cause there isn't one.

Though you have come up with a new one that I had left out:

"I just feel that there is some serious rose tinting to how "easy" it was to convert old models."

I guess "It's just nostalgia!" comes somewhere between "The old ones were bad anyway!" and "No options and nonposable is actually better for everyone/the game/etc.!". Thanks for that. I'll try to remember it the next time someone tries to pretend that the modularity of GW kits hasn't regressed to the point of absurdity.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like the intermediary phase of multi-part kits ...
*record scratch*

Intermediary phase? Phase???

GW's years of making detailed, multi-part plastics filled to the gills with options was just a phase in between periods of monopose madness?

Now that's some spin, D. Holy gak...


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 00:38:50


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
...Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits...


No, you couldn't produce whatever you wanted with no effort with the old kits. That doesn't mean the locked torsos, overcomplicated joints, move to more patterns of armour (reducing the number of kits you can get parts from), and single-pose arms/wrists don't make it much harder to do anything interesting with Primaris kits than it was with older kits. The newer kits produce some cool mono-pose models, yeah. I'd rather have the old ones.

I'm sorry, but to get a good dynamic pose with the old kit you were going to need to chop some legs apart and resculpt things since legs have existed in one pose for nearly every single model: "I just crapped my paints but I need to stand here".


If I want to chop up and resculpt a Tactical Marine's legs that's about three cuts per leg (ankle, knee, hip), depending on which variant of the knee I'm working with. If I want to cut up an Intercessor I'm looking at more like five cuts per leg (ankle, shin plate ankle, two ankle balls, knee), plus whatever I need to do to the hip joint, and the front of the knee takes more rebuilding, plus if I want to re-angle the torso even minutely I have to rebuild the lower abdomen completely. And don't get me started on trying to cut up Aggressors versus Terminators.

The unmodded poses are marginally more dynamic, yes, but I don't like being stuck with them. And I want Cawl to take his faulds and shove them up his rusty metal ass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 00:35:52


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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 Castozor wrote:
What strengths do these newer kits actually have? Looking more fancy? I expect as much from newer techniques. Everything else is wasted on monopose kits for more money than the old kits.

Better poses, better proportions, less crapped trousers.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
"It's no big deal because you can just cut up the models and fix them" isn't a good argument for why people shouldn't be annoyed at having to, well, cut up the models and fix them.

The complaint isn't that it's impossible to repose monopose kits, it's that you have to, well, cut them up to do it, whereas before the kits were built to facilitate creating your own poses, precisely so you wouldn't have to do that. Saying "but you can still do it! just cut up your models!" is quite literally missing the point.

Nor is "you're going to have to just live with it." These are both non-arguments in that they don't address the actual complaint, they just hand-waive it away as petty and unimportant. Which is exactly what annoys people.

Conversions are all about cutting models and "fixing" them to fit whatever idea you have in mind. And "build" your own poses? Like what? Standing around, or standing around looking slightly to one side, or standing around looking slightly up, or standing around looking slightly down? I feel like there are some serious rose colored glasses on for how much you could do with the old kits without cutting models. Like if you want to change the direction of the arm instead of having it just rotated up or down a bit.

Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits. But go on, tell me what I said some more.


You're the one telling other people their opinions on monopose vs multipose aren't grounded in reality because saws exist. If you had just said "personally, I like the dynamic poses more than the loss of not being able to create your own pose without cutting up your miniatures" that'd be fine, what is rubbing people the wrong way is the bizarre insistence that everyone else is somehow misremembering the past because they value things differently than you do. No, people are not misremembering, they just care about things you evidently don't. You can't tell other people what they do or don't care about, that's a basic logical mistake, and when you try to, it annoys them for good reason. Just don't do that and people won't be annoyed by what you say. I don't try to tell you what you do or don't care about and I don't insist you must be suffering from amnesia if you don't appreciate the multipose kits, so why do you do insist on doing so when others say they preferred those kits?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:


Like what you like, but let's not pretend the old kits were really that much easier to make every model look like a one of a kind, especially in a horde.


Except that they absolutely were. That's what the difference between a multipose and monopose kit literally is. What you seem to be really saying here is that you personally don't care whether a model looks similar but not exactly the same, vs exactly the same. But that's a personal preference. Those two ork boyz aren't exactly the same, even if they are quite similar, and that's important to some of us, even if it isn't important to you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 00:47:55


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
"It's no big deal because you can just cut up the models and fix them" isn't a good argument for why people shouldn't be annoyed at having to, well, cut up the models and fix them.

The complaint isn't that it's impossible to repose monopose kits, it's that you have to, well, cut them up to do it, whereas before the kits were built to facilitate creating your own poses, precisely so you wouldn't have to do that. Saying "but you can still do it! just cut up your models!" is quite literally missing the point.

Nor is "you're going to have to just live with it." These are both non-arguments in that they don't address the actual complaint, they just hand-waive it away as petty and unimportant. Which is exactly what annoys people.

Conversions are all about cutting models and "fixing" them to fit whatever idea you have in mind. And "build" your own poses? Like what? Standing around, or standing around looking slightly to one side, or standing around looking slightly up, or standing around looking slightly down? I feel like there are some serious rose colored glasses on for how much you could do with the old kits without cutting models. Like if you want to change the direction of the arm instead of having it just rotated up or down a bit.

Seriously, none of what you brought up changes my points about the work conversions require, nor the weakness of the old kits, nor does it actually address anything I actually said about people ignoring the strengths of the newer kits. But go on, tell me what I said some more.


You're the one telling other people their opinions on monopose vs multipose aren't grounded in reality because saws exist. If you had just said "personally, I like the dynamic poses more than the loss of not being able to create your own pose without cutting up your miniatures" that'd be fine, what is rubbing people the wrong way is the bizarre insistence that everyone else is somehow misremembering the past because they value things differently than you do. No, people are not misremembering, they just care about things you evidently don't. You can't tell other people what they do or don't care about, that's a basic logical mistake, and when you try to, it annoys them for good reason. Just don't do that and people won't be annoyed by what you say. I don't try to tell you what you do or don't care about and I don't insist you must be suffering from amnesia if you don't appreciate the multipose kits, so why do you do insist on doing so when others say they preferred those kits?

No, I was saying the loss of the poseability wasn't a real loss because the amount of "freedom" it gave is far weaker than what people claim. Oh you can put the arm up or down, oh, he can look slightly down like he found a penny, or you can wiggle his bolter 2mm. Those kits didn't have a lot of good looking poses (especially since almost every set of legs was the same "crapped my pants" look) and if you wanted more you needed saws. Now we have better poses that you can do just as much with the arms and head as before and only lose out on the waist, which is less of an issue since you can often find a body already posed how you want it to work from.

And I never said that people had to believe the same things I do, or feel the same way I do. I said that the claims of how versatile those kits were without some serious work is largely full of crap. But go on, tell me what I really meant some more while I check out of this thread and go read my recently delivered Sisters codex.
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 vipoid wrote:
Regarding monopose models, this is the sort of thing I hate seeing:



I don't know if these actually count as monopose or not but it's the same issue either way. Four of them are fine but look at the plasmagunner - instead of holding his gun normally (like he's about to fire it) he's holding it up in the air and pointing with his off-hand.

This is fine if you've one got one unit but when you start fielding multiples the fact that every plasmagunner is holding his gun in one hand will start to get very noticeable very quickly.

And this, I will remind you, is a unit that can potentially have 4 plasmagunners. There are no variant models with plasmaguns so if you make four then your Command Squad is going to start looking less like elite warriors and more like children on a school trip.

"Sir! Sir! Look over here, sir!"

"No, sir! Please, sir! There's a far more exciting thing over here, sir!"


That is a good example that helps me understand the concern more. Though isn't this kit fairly flexible ( aside from the gun )? This seems more like a design mistake by GW.


Yeah, the rest of the kit is basically fine. It's just that specific gun that's really awkward (and it's something that different legs can't really help with).

Slight rumormongery scuttlebutt...

Heard a few times now that the Scions kit was supposed to have Special Weapons as an option for a Sergeant/Tempestor Prime, and that Plasma Guns were going to be a 1 per either flavor of Command, Veteran/Infantry, or Scion squad. Whether or not it's true? I don't know. The posing on that specific model does lend some credence to it though.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
I said that the claims of how versatile those kits were without some serious work is largely full of crap.


Exactly: you said our opinions are not grounded in fact and are based on claims that are - quote unquote - "full of crap." And you're surprised people would react negatively to that?

If you want to tell people they're - again, I quote - "full of crap," that's your choice I suppose, but it's not a good way to make friends and influence people, or to have a constructive discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 01:04:52


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
What strengths do these newer kits actually have? Looking more fancy? I expect as much from newer techniques. Everything else is wasted on monopose kits for more money than the old kits.

Better poses, better proportions, less crapped trousers.

Yeah better poses for the first 12, after that it's all repeating. Which I personally wouldn't mind but not at an increased price point like GW likes to do. Monopose kits should be less money not more.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
Heard a few times now that the Scions kit was supposed to have Special Weapons as an option for a Sergeant/Tempestor Prime, and that Plasma Guns were going to be a 1 per either flavor of Command, Veteran/Infantry, or Scion squad. Whether or not it's true? I don't know. The posing on that specific model does lend some credence to it though.
Weirdly enough, that kind of weapon limitation will happen as soon as the new Guard book comes out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 01:07:10


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Heard a few times now that the Scions kit was supposed to have Special Weapons as an option for a Sergeant/Tempestor Prime, and that Plasma Guns were going to be a 1 per either flavor of Command, Veteran/Infantry, or Scion squad. Whether or not it's true? I don't know. The posing on that specific model does lend some credence to it though.
Weirdly enough, that kind of weapon limitation will happen as soon as the new Guard book comes out.



I'd like to say it'd be unlikely that they'd change the plasma gun from a special weapon option to a sergeant option, but they changed the plasma from a special weapon to sergeant-only and the volkite from anyone in the squad to sergeant-only when they did the 40k Tartaros datasheet, so who knows?

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now that's some spin, D. Holy gak...


Not spin. Just practical applications of technology and design.

   
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I don't like monopose as a trend. But I do feel that GW has done a pretty decent job of providing varied poses of intercessors/hellblasters.
So if there are;
10 unique Intercessors from Dark Imperium
5 Hellblasters from Dark Imperium
5 from regular Intercessor box
10 unique (assault) intercessors
5 unique box assault intercessors
5 from regular hellblasters kit
So that's 40 unique sculpts for tacticus armour alone.

What's the difference in Gravis sculpts etc...
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now that's some spin, D. Holy gak...


Not spin. Just practical applications of technology and design.


The progression from more poseable to less poseable isn't forward progress to better technology and design, it's a decision that GW could have chosen not to make.

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