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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone else suspecting the timing of Shadow In The Warp is going to be an important lesson Tyranid players?

We can only do it once (outside of Further Rules) per game. And, it’s not guaranteed to do anything.

I think I’d want to first reserve it for early turns where my opponent might be about to score big on Objectives, and I’m poised to hoof them off said objectives in my next turn?

It's a very swingy move; used too early and you'll likely do nothing or do something that is undone so fast an opponent can easily recover. Use it too late and the game might already be over for whoever won/lost.

I'd say its a turn 3-5 ability

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I don’t see four attacks as a ‘bucket full’ , having recently been on the wrong end of World Eaters basic Berzerkers. It’s minimum for an elite unit, IMO.

From what we’ve seen, it’s the whole of the stat.

A4, S4, Sv-2, D1, WS 2+.

They’re efficient attacks. Few are going to miss. On an objective, those re-rolls are going to help mitigate Naughty Dice and turn Good Dice into God Dice, and make ousting them from that position a tricky job to do.

And you need to consider all the other Nids trying to nibble your bum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the Swarmlord’s Ld? Kind of. But, it will always be testing on 3D6, as it always benefits from its own Synapse.

I’ve no idea how much difference that makes, or whether you factored it in

In the case of it not being the whole stat, I hope we see a significant reduction in the whole stat of e.g.Basic Berzerker dudes.

I didn’t factor in the extra dice for synapse because that wasn’t my point…my point was that an Epic Hero has a lower Ld than a vanilla Marine character.

I think that’s gonna be the common usage. Certainly not late enough it itself becomes a Gambit.

Then again……..sods laws is something to be considered, and never trifled with. If I’m going for the Orbital Bombardment Gambit? Let’s face it, Shadow In The Warp is gonna see all my units in position suddenly Besmirch Their Strides and utterly fail!

However mid-game does seem to give the Tyranid player the best result. If it does nothing, game on as usual. But if it performs above expectation (as in the perfect “and then all his units befouled their pantaloons”) it could utterly wreck my opponent, as they miss out on a lot of VPs. Potentially.

I feel this is again premature!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone else suspecting the timing of Shadow In The Warp is going to be an important lesson Tyranid players?

We can only do it once (outside of Further Rules) per game. And, it’s not guaranteed to do anything.

I think I’d want to first reserve it for early turns where my opponent might be about to score big on Objectives, and I’m poised to hoof them off said objectives in my next turn?

Use it on theirs to prevent strats, prevent fallback on their turn, or to maintain objective control. Use it on yours to steal objectives for their scoring or stop strats on your turn. In this scenario you go after the objective that had a unit fail so being flexible is key to getting the most out of it - hello gargoyles!

It's definitely a turn 3/4 sweet spot in my mind.

Is that a warrior or a new hormaguant model?

Which bit?

Winged Prime, Termagants and Screamer Killer is all I’m seeing?

SiTW is also going to depend on what else affects battleshock tests. Tyranids certainly will have at least a few more ways but we also need to know if there are further stuff in the core rules that affect it.

I’m not a big fan of the shadow in the warp ability. It seems a bit swingy and fluff-wise it seems the effect of shadow in the warp should be an always on debuff of some type. Army wide -1 Leadership or some such rather than a one and done power.

That being said, it’s effectiveness likely hinges on how easy it is to modify leadership/battle shock tests and trigger the ability when maximising those modifiers.

It balances quite nicely against Oath of Duty.

Shadow in the Warp is of course swingy. Some games it’ll carry the day alongside a half way competent plan. Other games it’ll do Bugger All, other games it’ll put a dent in your opponent’s best plans. But, it wallops everyone in your opponent’s army.

Oath of Duty is more guaranteed (pick a target, everyone that picks on it does really well), but it’s only the one target. If your opponent chooses poorly, it’s wasted.

Oath of Momentum also likely means Marines are either going to have inefficient datasheets or are going to be nerfed into inefficiency.

That's one of the core issue of "kill more" army abilities.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which bit?

Winged Prime, Termagants and Screamer Killer is all I’m seeing?

ah, your right. Thx.

so, Robin is at it again.

Rupture cannon goes from 3 shots doing D6+4, to 2 shots doing 2D6.
So from 5-10 for 3 shots, to 2-12 dmg for 2 shots.

In the meantime, Heavy laser destroyer goes from 2 shots doing D3+3, to 2 shots doing D6+4
So from 4-6 to 5-10 dmg, for 2 shots either way.

I have a very bad feeling for Nids.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
so, Robin is at it again.

Rupture cannon goes from 3 shots doing D6+4, to 2 shots doing 2D6.
So from 5-10 for 3 shots, to 2-12 dmg for 2 shots.

In the meantime, Heavy laser destroyer goes from 2 shots doing D3+3, to 2 shots doing D6+4
So from 4-6 to 5-10 dmg, for 2 shots either way.

I have a very bad feeling for Nids.

Tyrranofex can double out a Rhino - Repulsor can't. Tyrranofex can pick up Lethal Hits, which is as of yet not available to a Repulsor unless some character will provide it.

Also, points.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Rupture Cannon is also looking rather buff. Certainly should be capable of kneecapping a Knight with just a modicum of luck.

Nah supposedy hugely nerffed according to local nid player.

It is nerfed, but kinda needed to as currently it just deletes monsters and vehicles.

And you know other rules and points how?

If damage goes up by 10% and points go up 300% is it buff? Since you look at pure stats guess buff.


If everybody goes down same is it nerf despite your effiency in game staying same vs others?

Oh and while many at weapons that were wounding on 3+ and now on 5's this wounding on 3's is gold.

You aren"t in vacuum. Power level is always related to others and points.

I don't know about this preview honestly.

Shadow in the warp; Once per game force a battleshock table wide. Sounds great until some army is immune to battleshock, or gets rerolls or huge bonuses or is just army wide LD3+ and just negates your army wide rule. Hell, its only like a 28% chance to succeed on space marine rank and file boys, so like 1 in 4 marine units can't capture objective or have strats used for one turn? It's not nothing, and games will be flipped by multiple units failing and scoring zero on primary one turn, but it could just as easily have zero impact on the game. I really hope there are some vicious minuses you can apply to battleshock tests with nids or this is just....dicey at best. Compare this to Oath of moment, which is full reroll to hit and wound on one unit EVERY TURN, which is just a straight force multiplier.

Synapse. Neat, and makes it hard for nids to fail battleshock (Lol, mirror match having synapse work against Shadow in the warp is amusing). From a certain point of view it's a downgrade, as nids were straight immune to morale affects in Synapse previously. I really hope this heralds that NOTHING is immune to battleshock because i'll be annoying if some Commissar makes guardsmen immune, or World Eaters are immune army wide or something.

Swarmlord; Melee damage nerf, both in quantity and quality of attacks....fine, new edition, throttled back damage right? After seeing Guilliman with his INCREASE in damage though? Granted he needed improvements....but jeez. Loss of psychic powers for an up-gunned heavy flamer is rough, especially since nid psychic power skewed towards buffing and debuffing units, and a medium-sized weapon is a weak replacement. Seems like the way psychic powers are going though. His +1cp per turn is great, and probably his best ability. Making CP of abilities cost more feels....weak? The opponent just won't use the strat again, or if it's impactful enough, just pay the price. That's assuming you even make the SL your warlord, which may lock the rest of your army out of "enhancements" which may or may not over-shadow this altogether. The toughness boost is fine, but the loss of wounds is worrying. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt here toughness/survivability wise though.

Genestealers; Great, amazing. No issues here, straight upgrade and might convince me to put them on the table for the first time since 6th edition.

Rupture Cannon; Looks great at first glance, but it's a downgrade from the current version. The strength boost matches the toughness boost, so that's a wash. AP is the same, damage went from D6+4 to 2D6, which is a ~7% damage decrease. Going to heavy is nice, as you hit on a 2+ when stationary (assuming monsters don't always count as stationary in 10th), which is an upgrade. Losing the third shot is a big hit though. Probably a 20-25% damage nerf? Again, if this is what they want in 10th, less damage, then okay? But the repulsor laser destroyer was previewed yesterday with straight upgrades in damage...and again, it needed it, but jeez.

Endless Swarm: Super neat, and might bring swarms and little dudes to the table, which is great.

I don't really mind most of these changes, and might make nids a "battleshock" army, which is an interesting niche to put them in, but this article feels like a marketing failure in what they decided to preview especially right after Space Marines.

Mate.

Given Synapse doesn’t entirely prevent Battleshock?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mate.

Given Synapse doesn’t entirely prevent Battleshock?

Never say never man.

It does point, HEAVILY, to battleshock being something that's not supposed to be ignored on a fundamental level of the game, but that's only if GW sticks to it throughout the edition. Given the last three editions with how things spiraled out of control, combined with their history of morale based mechanics being irrelevant? I have concerns, both short and long term.

Let us not Clutch The Pearls until we need to, yes?

I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think

 Skywave wrote:
I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think

Who knows what Stratagems will interact with it, and which unit abilities... the Maleceptor, for example, is a likely candidate for some morale-reducing ability, but there are of course others. It's just too early to tell when all we have are bits and snippets with almost no context.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mate.

Given Synapse doesn’t entirely prevent Battleshock?

Never say never man.

It does point, HEAVILY, to battleshock being something that's not supposed to be ignored on a fundamental level of the game, but that's only if GW sticks to it throughout the edition. Given the last three editions with how things spiraled out of control, combined with their history of morale based mechanics being irrelevant? I have concerns, both short and long term.

The problem with battleshock and other similar morale mechanics like pinning were:

A) There was essentially no counter play. Only in the stratagem era did the possibility of mitigating morale on the table (rather than in list building) even become a possibility.

and

B) It essentially (or literally) removed units from the table. Pinning was as good as killing a unit in 6th and 7th and battleshock literally just did kill units in 8th and 9th. It was so devastating that it couldn't be a valid tactic or you'd have games boil down to 'person who goes first pins/battleshocks off 3/4ths of your army every turn'.

Now that the consequences are still significant but don't just end the game for the player who isn't totally immune, hopefully we won't see the same level of 'fearlessness arms race'.

That’s a very solid point!

 Carnage43 wrote:
Swarmlord; Melee damage nerf, both in quantity and quality of attacks....fine, new edition, throttled back damage right? After seeing Guilliman with his INCREASE in damage though? Granted he needed improvements....but jeez. Loss of psychic powers for an up-gunned heavy flamer is rough, especially since nid psychic power skewed towards buffing and debuffing units, and a medium-sized weapon is a weak replacement. Seems like the way psychic powers are going though. His +1cp per turn is great, and probably his best ability. Making CP of abilities cost more feels....weak? The opponent just won't use the strat again, or if it's impactful enough, just pay the price. That's assuming you even make the SL your warlord, which may lock the rest of your army out of "enhancements" which may or may not over-shadow this altogether. The toughness boost is fine, but the loss of wounds is worrying. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt here toughness/survivability wise though.

Do note that Swarmy has twin-linked on his melee giving full reroll wounds. Additionally, Nids have army wide USRs available through adaptation instead of getting them by adding a character to the unit. And when an opponent has only 6 faction stratagems targeting a crucial one to be more expensive when you start at 0CP and gain 1 a turn will be fairly strong.

But the repulsor laser destroyer was previewed yesterday with straight upgrades in damage...and again, it needed it, but jeez.

T'Fex w/ Lethal Hits vs T12 something with a 5++ :
2 * .167 * .666 * 7 = 1.6
2 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 7 = 4.1

Repulsor vs same:
2 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 7.5 = 5.5

5.7 ( 5.2 w/o LH ) v 5.5

T'Fex vs Rhino
2 * .167 * 7 = 2.3
2 * .666 * .833 * 7 = 7.8

Repulsor
2 * .833 * .666 * 7.5 = 5.5

10.1 ( 9.7 w/o LH ) v 8.3

The T'Fex is on par with Repulsor and potentially slightly better even without the adaptation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skywave wrote:
I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think

Fluff-wise yes, but then you're suddenly punishing specific armies really horribly by comparison.

Shadow of the Warp might be able to wrongfoot the armies with weaker LD pretty badly, but yeah, it's something you want to use carefully.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Shadow of the Warp might be able to wrongfoot the armies with weaker LD pretty badly, but yeah, it's something you want to use carefully.

I think in general low LD armies will be able to put more units on the table so failures aren't as critical. Putting a crushing ability on elite armies like TS or GK would just make them a bad-matchup into Nids.

Honestly?

I feel a faction ability not being a win button unto itself is something praise worthy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Honestly?

I feel a faction ability not being a win button unto itself is something praise worthy.

Lots of people are worried about OoM, but I think it will be interesting to play around. It will often be just one unit. Predicting which unit the opponent will target will be done by checking ranges on weapons and assessing their capabilities of taking the target out as well as their mission priorities. From there I position a long range counter-fire unit that is capable of severely hurting an element that moves into range. Once they do I'll overwatch into them and hope I can remove enough of their damage potential. Perhaps even just trying to bait them to range to a unit of mine that's a bit deeper letting my other elements get closer if they do.

All theoretical nonsense atm, of course.

Theoretical indeed.

I’d venture the natural counter to OoM is ‘oh Noes…don’t shoot me. Not the sacrificial prawn’. As in when you’re playing against Maureens, just accept one unit a turn is gonna get particularly wrecked, and plan around that.

Keep it pg please.