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Alli in the title. Ive read enough lorr and novels to know ofbthe perpetuals, but not so much as tonreally know how they work.

So could a perpetual be turned into a space marine? If the subsequent space marine died would they return as a normal human, or as a space marine? How does the whole reincarnation thing work anyway?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*whoops* could a mod move this to the fluff section?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 02:11:06


   
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The grey knights have a perpetual brother captain.

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Depends, does a perpetual keep their tattoos if they die?

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 mew28 wrote:
The grey knights have a perpetual brother captain.


no they don't, he's actually a sergant IIRC

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BrianDavion wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
The grey knights have a perpetual brother captain.


no they don't, he's actually a sergant IIRC


Yup. Justicar Thawn.

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I'm not an expert on perpetuals, but don't they regenerate instead of reincarnate?

That's a bit tricky. Do the Astartes have their DNA modified? I'm not great on that fluff either. D:

Either way, you could argue that the genetic tampering would be regenerated, so you could not make a perpetual an Astartes. The Cabal can turn a human into a perpetual so perhaps you'd need to be an Astartes before? But the Cabal doesn't exist anymore, right?

Or you could just say the techno-witchcraft used to create the Astartes is potent enough to alter a perpetual permanently.

I'd say it's a case of what the writer needs, like a lot of fluff.

   
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Vulkan is a perpetual. He's already been killed and come back several times. Once as a meteor, etc.
   
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 Frstwlf wrote:
I'm not an expert on perpetuals, but don't they regenerate instead of reincarnate?

That's a bit tricky. Do the Astartes have their DNA modified? I'm not great on that fluff either. D:

Either way, you could argue that the genetic tampering would be regenerated, so you could not make a perpetual an Astartes. The Cabal can turn a human into a perpetual so perhaps you'd need to be an Astartes before? But the Cabal doesn't exist anymore, right?

Or you could just say the techno-witchcraft used to create the Astartes is potent enough to alter a perpetual permanently.

I'd say it's a case of what the writer needs, like a lot of fluff.


Yeah that's precisely why I don't think an Astartes Perpetual would work. Astartes are explicitly not engineered at the genetic level. They're implanted with various genetically engineered organs, but their actual genome remains 100% human. That's how they skirt around the whole 'holy human form' thing that the Imperium's so keen on.

It's closer to mechanical augmentation, but replace the bionic implants with biological ones and you've got it bang on. So, if a perpetual's regeneration is genetic(which AFAIK it is) then they'd be reconstructed as their genome records (human) and would have to be re-implanted with the various Astartes organs.

Primarchs (and Thunder Warriors) are specifically genetically engineered, so I'd expect if any of them are perpetuals they'd come back physically the same (minus any technological augmentations).

Unless you want to just wave it away with warp f*ckery in which case I'd say that's just weak storytelling.

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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Frstwlf wrote:
I'm not an expert on perpetuals, but don't they regenerate instead of reincarnate?

That's a bit tricky. Do the Astartes have their DNA modified? I'm not great on that fluff either. D:

Either way, you could argue that the genetic tampering would be regenerated, so you could not make a perpetual an Astartes. The Cabal can turn a human into a perpetual so perhaps you'd need to be an Astartes before? But the Cabal doesn't exist anymore, right?

Or you could just say the techno-witchcraft used to create the Astartes is potent enough to alter a perpetual permanently.

I'd say it's a case of what the writer needs, like a lot of fluff.


Yeah that's precisely why I don't think an Astartes Perpetual would work. Astartes are explicitly not engineered at the genetic level. They're implanted with various genetically engineered organs, but their actual genome remains 100% human. That's how they skirt around the whole 'holy human form' thing that the Imperium's so keen on.

It's closer to mechanical augmentation, but replace the bionic implants with biological ones and you've got it bang on. So, if a perpetual's regeneration is genetic(which AFAIK it is) then they'd be reconstructed as their genome records (human) and would have to be re-implanted with the various Astartes organs.

Primarchs (and Thunder Warriors) are specifically genetically engineered, so I'd expect if any of them are perpetuals they'd come back physically the same (minus any technological augmentations).


I see, thanks for the clarifications. I agree with you on those points.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Unless you want to just wave it away with warp f*ckery in which case I'd say that's just weak storytelling.


I'd argue you could make it work if done properly, but yes, it'd still be pretty weak. Then again, 40k is good ol' schlock so I tend to be permissive.

   
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No probs and yeah you're right it could be done adequately with warp trickery.

Something like being a Perpetual isn't actually a genetic trait that runs through humanity, but is actually more like a quirk with a person's soul (or even the manipulations of some unknown warp entity, possibly even Tzeentch), which means that rather than a biological regeneration it's actually a warp-borne reconstruction of everything you were at your time of death.

Could well be that TBH. Do we actually know that being a Perpetual has anything to do with genetics? Any perpetuals that have relatives that are also perpetuals?

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I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


Damn Grey Knight lore. Is there anything about the newer stuff that doesn't cause more problems/hate than it fixes?

Are there any explicit instances of him coming back as an Astartes immediately? Otherwise it could well be that he's re-implanted each time he resurrects.

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I didn't know about Thawn, but Lexicanum says his status might have been retconned. I don't own the latest GK codex however, so cannot verify.

   
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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


Damn Grey Knight lore. Is there anything about the newer stuff that doesn't cause more problems/hate than it fixes?

Are there any explicit instances of him coming back as an Astartes immediately? Otherwise it could well be that he's re-implanted each time he resurrects.
Gets swallowed whole by a Great Unclean One, killed, and then fights out of his stomach after he is resurrected after a matter of minutes.


They/them

 
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


Damn Grey Knight lore. Is there anything about the newer stuff that doesn't cause more problems/hate than it fixes?

Are there any explicit instances of him coming back as an Astartes immediately? Otherwise it could well be that he's re-implanted each time he resurrects.
Gets swallowed whole by a Great Unclean One, killed, and then fights out of his stomach after he is resurrected after a matter of minutes.


As if the Grey Knights weren't Mary Sue enough...

Hope he is retconned as a perpetual because it's ill-thought-out...

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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


Damn Grey Knight lore. Is there anything about the newer stuff that doesn't cause more problems/hate than it fixes?

Are there any explicit instances of him coming back as an Astartes immediately? Otherwise it could well be that he's re-implanted each time he resurrects.
Gets swallowed whole by a Great Unclean One, killed, and then fights out of his stomach after he is resurrected after a matter of minutes.


As if the Grey Knights weren't Mary Sue enough...

Hope he is retconned as a perpetual because it's ill-thought-out...


the character is no longer in codex grey knights and no where does it say "he is a perpetual" it's just obvious he must be one.

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Constructive comment for the day: Astartes is both singular and plural.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 21:08:56


 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd want to say that a Perpetual doesn't regenerate as an Astartes, purely on the genome (so no tattoos, implants, piercings, etc etc) and that would still leave Vulkan able to be a Perpetual Primarch, because the Primarchs had fully separate genomes to humans, unlike Astartes.

However, the big hole in this theory is Thawn, who does return every time as an Astartes.


Damn Grey Knight lore. Is there anything about the newer stuff that doesn't cause more problems/hate than it fixes?

Are there any explicit instances of him coming back as an Astartes immediately? Otherwise it could well be that he's re-implanted each time he resurrects.
Gets swallowed whole by a Great Unclean One, killed, and then fights out of his stomach after he is resurrected after a matter of minutes.


As if the Grey Knights weren't Mary Sue enough...

Hope he is retconned as a perpetual because it's ill-thought-out...


the character is no longer in codex grey knights and no where does it say "he is a perpetual" it's just obvious he must be one.


The story of his death on Malan'tai is still there, the resurrection is not. So it seems that his perpetualness may have been retconned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 21:33:31


 
   
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I'm going to use the aforementioned Justicar Thawn to justify my theory;

Perpetuals regenerate, not reincarnate, and do so in the same form as they were killed in. As mentioned, Thawn is the evidence. Pg 43, Codex Grey Knights 5th Ed

"The boy was a picture of calm amidst the Black Ship's muted terror and stated with surety that he had been "waiting to leave with them" "

Then Lexicanum has this phrase, citing The Ghost Halls as a source

" Though nothing is known of this life before the Grey Knights, it is likely that he has lived for thousands, even tens of thousands, of years. Why he finally chose to become a Grey Knight is unknown "



These two sections would lead me to suggest that Thawn has indeed been around for thousands of years. However, that's nothing unusually in 40k, so what's my point? Well, apart from the Space Wolves who can apparently recruit late teens and early 20s, all other Space Marines, Grey Knights included, require their aspirants to be in their very early teens, preferably pre-pubescent (as the sudden increase of testosterone would work in harmony with the implants).

This means that Thawn has to have the current form of a 11 year old boy, otherwise the Gatherers simply wouldn't look twice at him. How is this possible when he's a few millenia old? Well, if he kills himself as an 11 year old, he'd regenerate as an 11 year old. His body would cease to age at the moment of death, as with other Perpetuals seen in the HH. The guy from Know No Fear who's name I forget (Pious?) memtions things like the Catholic Church, putting his age at anything up to 30, 100 (around the time it took from Christianity to begin to end of GC).

However, he still appears to have the body of a 50 year old. He is notably depicted as aged, but not 80 or 90. He sounds like he died in his 40s or so. So, my theory is that you're first death locks your body at that state of formation. You're soul returns and your body reconsituted but it wont age anymore.

Now, I say this with one other Perpetual in mind; The Emperor. The Emperor is not yet technically dead, but clinging onto his ohysical form through the Throne. Perhaps, the Techpriests of Mars are unwilling to let him die because they know his nature and this fact, and know that if he were returned, he would return as a corpse only to continually die over and over for all eternity?

There's one other point to support this, and that is that Perpetuality is a psychic, Warp-based phenomenon, not a DNA or physical one. Looking at the 4 Perpetuals discussed, 3 of them are directly and powerfully connected to the Warp. The Emperor, Vulkan (a Primarch, so like a pseudo-Daemon and made from the Emperor's DNA), and Thawn, who is a powerful Psyker. (The 5th Ed codex mentions the Gatherer's noted the halo of psychic energy he displayed in a ship full of psykers). Pious, of course, may be connected powerfully to the Warp. I have a seperate theory that states all Perpetuals are directly descendant from the Emperor but it needs work first. I dont know much about him to say, but 3 prominent Perpetuals, all 3 of which have extremely powerful connection to the Warp.

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thats an intreasting idea and one I like, as it puts the perpetuals into context, what are perptuals? simply a differant FORM of psyker. basicly an incrediably potent variation of biomancy, this would imply a psyekr whom was powerful eneugh with the right ritual could GRANT the status, something we know to be true. I'd surmise a perpetual is effectivly perminantly anchored to the materium, their soul rebounding out of the warp with their death, to allow them to "ressurect"

this also would explain the golden throne, perhaps the emperor is in his current status because he needs to contest with the chaos gods directly in the warp, and being kept near death is really the only way TO do it.

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 Frstwlf wrote:
I'm not an expert on perpetuals, but don't they regenerate instead of reincarnate?

That's a bit tricky. Do the Astartes have their DNA modified? I'm not great on that fluff either. D:


I believe Perpetuals do regenerate. they don't get reborn with their memories infact, they actually physically regenerate. Kinda like Deadpool and Wolverine.

A perpetual who became a marine would remain a marine. Justicar Thawn is an example as such. I miss him having rules


As for the aging problem, I think its possible that a perpetual who went through the Astartification process might have some aging take place during the process. it might even somewhat counter the anti-aging properties the perpetuals have. A forced aging of some kind. Thus Thawn was able to become a grey knight and somewhat age during the process. but he still can't die and will simply regenerate.

Being psychic also allows for all manner of schenanagins to handwaive this away.

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it';s also possiable Thawn was a young perpetual and became a grey knight at the useal time etc. we have a LOT of theories but so far we know of only a handful of perpetual, Jon Grammartis Made a perpetual by the cabal. Olius Pearson: a born perpetual, Vulkan: an artifically created being (we have no data on WHY Vulkan is a perpetual, accident of fate? genetics? the emperor planned to make all primarchs one but only had time to grant it to Vulkan before the primarchs where scattered?) and Cyrene whom it seems became one after being ressurected by a sorcerous rite.

so we duinno eneugh about them, to know if new ones are being born or not

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/18 05:51:45


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That is probably more likely. That Thawn was actually ~12 years old or so. We still don't really know what perpetuals really are. For all we know they're simply a naturally occurring thing that happens to a human every now and then. Thawn could have known the Grey Knights were coming to him simply because he was a powerful psyker. It would explain that even he was somewhat surprised by his original resurrection. If he had been around and resurrected many times previously, thats the sort of thing the GK indoctrination would have discovered. You're not going to hide anything from the librarians who scour your mind for taint and literally reforge your psyche from nothing.

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BrianDavion wrote:
thats an intreasting idea and one I like, as it puts the perpetuals into context, what are perptuals? simply a differant FORM of psyker. basicly an incrediably potent variation of biomancy, this would imply a psyekr whom was powerful eneugh with the right ritual could GRANT the status, something we know to be true. I'd surmise a perpetual is effectivly perminantly anchored to the materium, their soul rebounding out of the warp with their death, to allow them to "ressurect"

this also would explain the golden throne, perhaps the emperor is in his current status because he needs to contest with the chaos gods directly in the warp, and being kept near death is really the only way TO do it.


Something like being a Perpetual isn't actually a genetic trait that runs through humanity, but is actually more like a quirk with a person's soul (or even the manipulations of some unknown warp entity, possibly even Tzeentch), which means that rather than a biological regeneration it's actually a warp-borne reconstruction of everything you were at your time of death.


That's exactly what happened in the case of Cyrene in the Horus Heresy Serie. She had been been dead for more than a year when Erebus pulled her soul out of the warp (where she was being tortured by demons) using a ritual and her rotting carcass and made her a Perpetual.
   
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Well I must admit I utterly love the idea that perpetuals are a specific sort of psyker. Biomancy+.

Much like Astropaths and Navigators are very specialised, I see no reason why Perpetuals couldn't be the same. Brilliant way of making 'warp f*ckery' seem like a neat solution

Also provides some interesting possibilities for fluff. For instance, is it possible to kill a Perpetual stone-dead if you keep their body in a cell with a Blank?

Also, I utterly love the idea that you become a perpetual in the form when you first died, so the Emperor would continually regenerate as a corpse. How perfectly grimdark is that!

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Not all Perpetuals are products of the Warp or regeneration by an outside source. They can be born immortal. Oll Persson, Alivia Sureka, and Damon Prytanis were apparently born as Perpetuals long before Humanity achieved spaceflight. And they remembered their past lives with no problem.

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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Well I must admit I utterly love the idea that perpetuals are a specific sort of psyker. Biomancy+.

Much like Astropaths and Navigators are very specialised, I see no reason why Perpetuals couldn't be the same. Brilliant way of making 'warp f*ckery' seem like a neat solution

Also provides some interesting possibilities for fluff. For instance, is it possible to kill a Perpetual stone-dead if you keep their body in a cell with a Blank?

Also, I utterly love the idea that you become a perpetual in the form when you first died, so the Emperor would continually regenerate as a corpse. How perfectly grimdark is that!


The issue with this is that it's been established that you can be made into a perpetual, but it's never been established that you can be made into a psyker.

I don't know how much interaction there's been between perpetuals and blanks, but I know the level of psychic potential among perpetuals varies (Vulkan wasn't a psyker at all, the Emperor was a very powerful one...) and I wouldn't expect them to be uncorrelated in that way if the phenomenon were psychic in nature.

If we had a perpetual blank that'd be a definite answer here, but as far as a brief scan through Lexicanum can tell that hasn't happened yet.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:

The issue with this is that it's been established that you can be made into a perpetual, but it's never been established that you can be made into a psyker.


Actually, you can. Sort of.

Everybody who isn't a blank has at least some sort of warp signature. Its just that typically you need a certain strength of warp signature to actually draw upon it. A person who devotes themselves to Chaos can find their warp connection strengthened, and this become a psyker.

There is also the drug Spook, which does this same thing. It strengthens a person's connection to the Warp, which results in a psycho-active experience, but it also temporarily can give a person psychic powers. In the Dark Heresy RPG, it has the ability to give someone a random minor psychic power.

The existence of this drug does prove that you can theoretically make someone into a psyker. Doing this in a permanent and relatively guaranteed manner is another matter, but it is potentially possible.

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(Vulkan wasn't a psyker at all, the Emperor was a very powerful one...)


You could argue that by their very nature, all Primarchs were psykers of some sorts, basically being Greater Demons incarnated into flesh bodies.
   
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Engrenages wrote:
(Vulkan wasn't a psyker at all, the Emperor was a very powerful one...)


You could argue that by their very nature, all Primarchs were psykers of some sorts, basically being Greater Demons incarnated into flesh bodies.


Are you telling me Greater Daemons of Khorne are psykers? (And where are we getting 'greater daemons incarnated into flesh bodies' from? From the sources I've got that only works if you believe what the Chaos Gods had Erebus tell Horus, which may or may not be bulls***.)

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