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I'll keep this short and sweet: The Warhound is the fastest and most maneuverable titan in the Imperial/Chaos arsenal. It would kind of make sense to have a fast-moving melee unit to attack other titans, wouldn't it? I don't know about you, but I think it's odd that the massive Warlord has a melee weapon and the Warhound doesn't.

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While yes, the Warhound is maneuverable and fast (And their Princeps' I'm sure would love to engage in melee, being the hot-headed buggers they are), it's far more suited as a 'light' gun platfrom for the following reasons:
It really isnt very well protected compared to larger engines. It's voids are very easily overloaded by other titan weapons.
In Titan engagements, pretty much anything within a kilometer is considered to be just about 'point blank', meaning as soon as our prospective melee Warhound broke cover to charge, any decent Princeps of an enemy engine can blast it to hell before it gets there.
It has a lupine stature that would make melee attacks awkward due to shoulder positioning and how the arm would have to be designed.
It's also really quite short compared to even the Reaver titan...
Spoiler:


Though I've got to say I'm a bit stumped at why larger engines would have melee weapons though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/12 03:13:14


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There are Traitor titan's in one of the HH novels (I think Betrayer) that have modified Warhounds armed with grappling guns to pull down larger titans while hunting in packs.

So its not unheard of...
   
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 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

It really isnt very well protected compared to larger engines. It's voids are very easily overloaded by other titan weapons.

This is the key, really. Getting stuck in close negates the Warhound's primary defense, which is to keep moving.

   
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 insaniak wrote:
 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

It really isnt very well protected compared to larger engines. It's voids are very easily overloaded by other titan weapons.

This is the key, really. Getting stuck in close negates the Warhound's primary defense, which is to keep moving.


There armour and shields are fairly light compared to heavier titans.
They can be threatened by tank grade and laser cannons etc and even a land raider can give them pause if caught out in the open and stuck without cover and fire sustained.

There not meant for heavy slugging combat but to use cover, speed, use there powerful guns to devestate lighter units and then duck back out again and move and fire constantly in battle.

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I've got the image in my head of a warlord just kicking it away when it tries to attack.

Anyway, as said above, it isn't durable enough for such an action. Even if they worked in packs, you are accepting that some very rare and valued war machines are going to bite the dust.

Though, if they are willing to throw some away, convert the jaws into a CC weapon that they can just attached and lock onto another titans leg and overload the reactor.
   
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Simple answer is mass. Looking at Lexicanum entries, the Warhound Titan weighs in at 410 tonnes, while the next smallest titan, the Reaver, weighs in at 738 tonnes, almost double. Melee combat has a lot to do with mass (hence why combat sports emphasise weight categories). Warhound vs a Reaver would be like a 105lb boxer against a 195lb boxer, the Warhound just wouldn't have the mass or momentum to risk it. The other way around, however, the Reaver could pack a helluva punch against a Warhound, and while significantly smaller, would have a better advantage against a Warlord Titan or another Reaver. Likewise, a Warlord would be fairly effective against a Reaver or Walord because of its mass and structure.

Emperor-Class Battle Titans don't have melee weapons though, just too big to use them and are more akin to walking fortresses. TheManWithNoPlan compared Warhounds to a light gun platform and that's what they do best. They are the titan equivilent to Light Tanks like the M2 and M3s. Reavers would be the equivilent of a medium tank or MBT like the German Panzer IV, while a Warlord would be more of a Tiger II, larger, tougher, with bigger guns. None of those are fitted with a ramming prow because they are primarily firepower and support to Infantry. An Emperor Class by comparison would be like an off-shore Navy Battleship, targetting the enemy forces from hundreds of kilometers away with guns bigger than the enemy targets.

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Simply put?

Warhounds aren't particularly suited to Titan Hunting.

They're the eyes and ears of the Legio Titanicus - there to move ahead, see what's where, and when things kick off keep infantry and tanks from overwhelming the larger, more ponderous Battle Titans - and where enemy Titans might be unsupported, or there's a few extra Warhounds kicking about, stripping shields off the larger enemy Titans, making your own Battle Titan's life a lot easier.

They're fast, they're flanking. They're not there to get properly stuck in.

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Pairs of Warhounds are more than capable of taking out larger Titans - like Reavers.

So while I don't think they'd like to do so super up close and personal, destroying enemy titans and warmachines is something they are cedrtainly designed to do too.

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Today's main battle tanks can fire accurately 16km away while moving 70 km/h on uneven terrain. Imagine the effective range of titans. Lol that's a lot of fire power to wade through before hitting the enemy titan with a sword. There's no hiding in the forest either (unless said forest is a super forest but who plans for that be there on all planets?). Maybe if the sword wielding titan had much more powerful shields but it doesn't.

That being said.....Orks make it happen with their titan's. I suppose it can be argued that they are surprisingly good with force field tech (which they are) which is further helped by their form of titans being built with so much redundant space and parts that losing half its bulk doesn't slow it down one bit.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Simply put?

Warhounds aren't particularly suited to Titan Hunting
It's funny, as I reached this bit I was thinking of the part of Betrayer in which a few packs of Warhounds subdue an Emperor titan.

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Which was silly.

Very silly indeed.

Not quite 'I are Angron, Me Hold Up Warhound Leg On Own' silly - but silly all the same.

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Nothing beats Fulgrim's titan beatdown.

Well, OK, maybe that Angron thing does...

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And while Warhounds aren't made to take on other Titans in close combat, they'd almost certainly want to get close. Same as in any fight where the other guy has a longer reach.

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 gorgon wrote:
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And while Warhounds aren't made to take on other Titans in close combat, they'd almost certainly want to get close. Same as in any fight where the other guy has a longer reach.



Not when that reach is so long because he's toting an AA-12. You're gonna want to get the feth away from that fast.

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Distance makes you harder to hit, and allows your speed to be used to full advantage. Closing would only be advised to get behind their lines, and you'd be taking massive losses because you'd be charging straight in stead of running around in an evade pattern.

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In thought, although I had said that melee is a poor idea for Warhounds, further examination of their hunting pack tactics and the chained-spear weapon, it could be viable: IF and only IF, in pairs vs a single titan and if they could quickly close the gap.

If a Warhound could get within melee range before the larger titan could bring its weaponry to bear, they would have a massive advantage in that they could strafe to the sides, preventing the titan from being able to lock on or turn to face the Warhound quickly enough. Imagine a large tank such as Baneblade or Leman Russ trying to bring its main turret to bear on a biker. if the biker was 500 metres away, no problem, but if the biker was 10ft away, circling, the turret simply cannot turn quickly enought to aim. In a similar sense, a Warlord or Reaver cannot turn quickly enough to aim at a strafing Warhound, especially 2 that go in opposite directions.

Once 1 Warhound gets in behind, its get a matter of meleeing various weakpoints, such as the back of the necks, the pelvis, lower back. A spear being shot through the back of a Warlord's knee and another through the spine would be devastating and leave it easy prey for the Warhounds to topple, shoot or entangle for tanks and foot-troops to target.

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 ProwlerPC wrote:
Today's main battle tanks can fire accurately 16km away while moving 70 km/h on uneven terrain.

What main BattleTank can shot a target at 16000m? That's farther range then most ground AGTMS and TOWs. The M1A2 wouldn't even dare engade a target till about 2.5km. Shooting at any target over that distance and you have a low chance of hitting the target, and a low chance of any Kinetic pen.


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Warhounds definitely can take on larger titans, when hunting in packs. They can still carry 2 double barrelled Turbolasers.

But yeah, they definitely want to keep the enemy at arms length. While a warhound with a powerfist could certainly tear a Reaver, or anything larger, apart in melee by attacking its legs(which would be quite dangerous for the victim), its unlikely to survive to get there. So its not worth giving up a gun to take one.

Warhounds are better at harassing conventional forces on the ground, or operating in packs while using speed and cover to snipe at an isolated larger titan.


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echoing the its small for a titan and not meant for cc. Heck in the fluff wasn't it a warhound that wazzdakka ramps up to, smashing the pilot compartment and killing the crew, a big mek on a bike (not even a warboss) on his souped up bike with a chainsaw powerclaw

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 kinratha wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Today's main battle tanks can fire accurately 16km away while moving 70 km/h on uneven terrain.

What main BattleTank can shot a target at 16000m? That's farther range then most ground AGTMS and TOWs. The M1A2 wouldn't even dare engade a target till about 2.5km. Shooting at any target over that distance and you have a low chance of hitting the target, and a low chance of any Kinetic pen.


Well that's not entirely accurate.

This quote is about the M1A1 following Desert Storm. Since then there have been a lot of upgrades to the firing system. I had gunners on ranges that could hit targets at 3K meters pretty regularly and we also have SABOT rounds that pack a significantly higher punch than the ones used in the 90s. Granted hitting a target at 3k+ while moving is a different story and pretty sure 16k would be past the horizon. Now the M109 Paladin has a range of almost 18k but its not a tank per se.

"The performance of tank crews employing long-range gunnery techniques using the M829A1 ammunition was effective at ranges beyond 3,000 meters. Thermal sights permitted target acquisition at 4,000 meters, far beyond day sight ranges. Sabot rounds fired at these ranges destroyed catastrophically T-72M1 tanks."
Major General Ronald H. Griffith
Commander, 1st Armored Division

And just playing devils advocate (i think the Warhound is not a CC platform) but I can definitely see having them with the grapples and what not that's been suggested specifically for fights in Hive Cities. There's definitely plenty of places for them to hide there, spring ambushes, and get in close without having to run throw a kilometer of Warlord fire to get there.

Just a comparison, but there were some engagements in Iraqi this last go round (inside towns/villages/etc) where the tank commander/gunners estimated the rear armor of the enemy T-72s to be about 20 meters or less from the end of the gun barrel. If you can do that in a 1 story village in the desert, ambushes in a hive shouldn't be a problem.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
Heck in the fluff wasn't it a warhound that wazzdakka ramps up to, smashing the pilot compartment and killing the crew, a big mek on a bike (not even a warboss) on his souped up bike with a chainsaw powerclaw

That was a Warlord Titan.
   
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 troa wrote:
Distance makes you harder to hit, and allows your speed to be used to full advantage. Closing would only be advised to get behind their lines, and you'd be taking massive losses because you'd be charging straight in stead of running around in an evade pattern.


Dancing around at range against a target that outranges and outpunches you just plays into their hands. Again, same as any fistfight. You take down a bigger guy by getting close and under his reach, ideally at angles that makes it awkward to impossible for him to land blows.

Yeah, it's a tough mission for the Warhound against a Reaver or Warlord. But if we're talking about a *fair fight* that gives the Warhound a real chance of winning, then we'd be talking about multiple or a whole pack of Warhounds in that scenario.

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 gorgon wrote:
 troa wrote:
Distance makes you harder to hit, and allows your speed to be used to full advantage. Closing would only be advised to get behind their lines, and you'd be taking massive losses because you'd be charging straight in stead of running around in an evade pattern.


Dancing around at range against a target that outranges and outpunches you just plays into their hands. Again, same as any fistfight. You take down a bigger guy by getting close and under his reach, ideally at angles that makes it awkward to impossible for him to land blows.

Yeah, it's a tough mission for the Warhound against a Reaver or Warlord. But if we're talking about a *fair fight* that gives the Warhound a real chance of winning, then we'd be talking about multiple or a whole pack of Warhounds in that scenario.


Moot point. By the time the warhound is close the Warlord has blown it to slag.

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 Frazzled wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 troa wrote:
Distance makes you harder to hit, and allows your speed to be used to full advantage. Closing would only be advised to get behind their lines, and you'd be taking massive losses because you'd be charging straight in stead of running around in an evade pattern.


Dancing around at range against a target that outranges and outpunches you just plays into their hands. Again, same as any fistfight. You take down a bigger guy by getting close and under his reach, ideally at angles that makes it awkward to impossible for him to land blows.

Yeah, it's a tough mission for the Warhound against a Reaver or Warlord. But if we're talking about a *fair fight* that gives the Warhound a real chance of winning, then we'd be talking about multiple or a whole pack of Warhounds in that scenario.


Moot point. By the time the warhound is close the Warlord has blown it to slag.



Fair fights don't exist, one is clearly superior in any situation and it entirely depends on terrain/LoS and distance. 2Km or more and the Warlord has a massive advantage, unless compensated by LoS blocking terrain, in which case the Warhound has the advantage of being able to close. At 500m or less the Warhound is definitely at an advantage due to maneuverability. The Warlord simply can't turn quick enough. But in each case, external factors lend to the winner, so no fair fight exists.

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You're arguing a fair fight to get you within a few feet to use an inferior weapon on a weapons platform that is effectively an armored horse archer.

1. Getting close means it itself is open to close assault, from other titans, but also ground troops. Its not made for that. Taking off a good range weapon vs. some large hammer just reduces their combat effectiveness.

2. Its best use is movement at some distance. As its primary opponent is not titans but troops and vehicles, longer distance reduces whats coming back at it. Its the same reason tanks avoid close street fighting if they can.

3. If you look at comparable scout titans/super heavies, most are range shooters. Nids, and rigged out gargaunts being the exception. Note most Imperial configurations for heavier titans are also ranged weapons, not HtH. For your fine young princeps, if you're into HtH things have already gone horribly wrong. Look at the ultimate versionof ths and my personal favorite, a nice twin pack of revenants. Nothing says electric glide like a running titan dancing around obliterating MonKeigh. Its a hobby...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/12 20:48:28


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 ILegion wrote:
 kinratha wrote:
 ProwlerPC wrote:
Today's main battle tanks can fire accurately 16km away while moving 70 km/h on uneven terrain.

What main BattleTank can shot a target at 16000m? That's farther range then most ground AGTMS and TOWs. The M1A2 wouldn't even dare engade a target till about 2.5km. Shooting at any target over that distance and you have a low chance of hitting the target, and a low chance of any Kinetic pen.


Well that's not entirely accurate.

This quote is about the M1A1 following Desert Storm. Since then there have been a lot of upgrades to the firing system. I had gunners on ranges that could hit targets at 3K meters pretty regularly and we also have SABOT rounds that pack a significantly higher punch than the ones used in the 90s. Granted hitting a target at 3k+ while moving is a different story and pretty sure 16k would be past the horizon. Now the M109 Paladin has a range of almost 18k but its not a tank per se.

"The performance of tank crews employing long-range gunnery techniques using the M829A1 ammunition was effective at ranges beyond 3,000 meters. Thermal sights permitted target acquisition at 4,000 meters, far beyond day sight ranges. Sabot rounds fired at these ranges destroyed catastrophically T-72M1 tanks."
Major General Ronald H. Griffith
Commander, 1st Armored Division



Well, take this from someone who has been a M1A2 tank crewman for 5 years now, Iv'e driven, loaded and gunned. I've been to Korea and Germany and have gotten chances to watch and work with the Korean K1A2 and the Leo2A5. Any Tank commander that let's his Gunner engage a target at 3k or more is going to get fired. Also, the M109 Paladin isn't a tank, that is like calling a Basilisk a tank. It's not, it's a mobile artillery gun. Our Tanks (M1A2s) can target and shoot at and enemy at 7k+ but good luck seeing the target.

And just playing devils advocate (i think the Warhound is not a CC platform) but I can definitely see having them with the grapples and what not that's been suggested specifically for fights in Hive Cities. There's definitely plenty of places for them to hide there, spring ambushes, and get in close without having to run throw a kilometer of Warlord fire to get there.

I totally agree here, I was commenting more on what you said about the Real life tanks. We see it happen in Betrayer, a few warhounds take down a bigger titan.



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Fair point. Fluff wise you might argue its a option, just that the admech only use them in specific circumstances.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Well then things may have changed. I was an Armor officer for the last 5 years and saw them engage targets a 3k before and no one got fired. If you are engaging a M1 equivalent tank T-80, Markava, Leo, etc, then yes, engaging beyond 2.5 is probably a bad idea but against T-72 and what not our stand off range is so much better it'd be stupid to get closer even if you do miss.

And I agree on the Paladin. That's the point I was trying to get at.

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